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Featured How can the Jew reject, Jesus, Muhammad, Bab and Baha'u'llah?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Tony Bristow-Stagg, Dec 30, 2020.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You said: "So Jews reject the rest because they believe the God(s) of those other religions are not the same one as theirs." I agree that is the reason Jews reject all the other religions, although there might be other reasons they could offer. To take that a step further, if Jews believe that they alone worship the one true God, that would mean that all the other religious believers are worshiping a false God(s).

    Religious believers who hold to only one religion reject all the other religions, especially religions that were revealed after their religion. The question is why people reject all religions but their own, and I offered my opinion as to why in my previous post to you. It is mainly because of religious tradition.
    How many people believe something has nothing to do with whether it is true or false, since it is not the belief that makes something true or false.

    How many people believe in a religion has nothing to do with whether it is true or false. That is the fallacy of argumentum ad populum

    In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

    The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

    So Judaism could be the one true religion even though many or most people do not believe it. The problem is, if it is the one true religion, that would mean that all the other religions are false. How could they ever prove all the other religions are false? How much sense does that make that the only true religion of God is that small after 4000 years, and all the other religions are false? What is the basis for that belief? It is perhaps based upon their interpretation of their scripture, but that could easily be refuted by a different interpretation. How could they ever prove Judaism is the only true religion? They can believe it, that is all they can do.

    Now compare that to the Baha'i Faith, which is half the size of Judaism after about 150 years. Given the growth rate of religions, it makes sense that the Baha'i Faith would be small. Also, Bahais do not believe that any of the other revealed religions are false, so we have no need to disprove them in order to be a true religion.

    I would take that a step further to say that it is not the evidence that makes a religion true or false, as reality is what exists. God either exists or not and God either sent certain Messengers of not. Humans are fallible, so they are prone to be mistaken, and as such anyone can be miss or misconstrue the evidence for God or the Messengers of any given religion.

    What makes sense to one person is not going to make sense to another since we all think and process information differently, but if people don't even bother to think about what they believe and why they believe it there is no chance that they will ever see the legitimacy of any other viewpoints. I have heard the arguments from atheists as to why they do not believe in God. Obviously I do not agree that God doesn't exist but at least they have explained why they do not believe God exists and I understand and respect their viewpoint.
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    If that is the criteria you are using for accepting Jesus, then you should also accept Baha'u'llah, since He was also a prophesied Messiah from the OT; and since Baha'u'llah validated Muhammad and the Bab, you should accept them too.
     
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  3. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Zechariah 12:10 talks about the Messiah being pierced, in the context of the second coming. The Messiah is Jesus, not Bahaullah.
     
  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Accusing the Baha'is if reinterpreting the Tanakh assumes that Jews interpreted it correctly and Baha'is changed that interpretation, but there is no reason to believe that the Jews made the correct interpretation of every verse in the Tanakh in the first place.

    Jews interpret the Tanakh to suit their theology but there is no reason to think their interpretation of the Tanakh is entirely correct. Daniel said to wait, because the words would be sealed up until the time of the end. Have the Jews waited, or do they just assume they know the meaning of those words?

    Daniel - Chapter 12 (from the Complete Jewish Bible)

    1Now at that time, Michael, the great prince, who stands over the children of your people, will be silent, and it will be a time of distress that never was since a nation existed until that time, and at that time, your people will escape, everyone who is found inscribed in the book.

    2And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awaken-these for eternal life, and those for disgrace, for eternal abhorrence.

    3And the wise will shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who bring the multitudes to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.

    4And you, Daniel, close up the words and seal the book until the time of the end; many will run to and fro, and the knowledge will increase.

    5And I, Daniel, saw, and behold two others were standing, one on this side of the river bank, and one on that side of the riverbank.

    6And he said to the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "How long will it be until the secret end?"

    7And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [two] times and a half, and when they have ended shattering the strength of the holy people, all these will end.

    8And I heard, but I did not understand, and I said, "My lord, what is the end of these?"

    9And he said, "Go, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.

    10They will be clarified and whitened, and many will be purified, and the wicked will pervert [them], and all the wicked will not understand, but the wise will understand.

    11And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.

    12Fortunate is he who waits and reaches days of one thousand, three hundred, and thirty-five.

    13And you, go to the end, and you will rest and rise to your lot at the end of the days."

    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16495/jewish/Chapter-12.htm
     
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  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I do take that as a prophecy for Baha'u'llah.
    Of course they would reject the Baha'i interpretation of that prophecy, because they believe in the Messiah that is made in their own image, according their own interpretation of their scriptures, and they are unwilling to consider any other interpretation as valid.

    Of course that does not apply across the board, because there are Jews who have been willing to look at other meanings to their scriptures and other religions and they have become Baha'is.

    If anyone wants to know some reasons why a Jew would become a Baha'i, they can read this very well-written article:

    Once a Jew, Always a Jew?
     
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  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    There is no space issue in the spiritual world, there is room for all. :)
     
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  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Correction: Jewish people can qualify or disqualify Messiahs based on their interpretation of their scriptures.

    But there is no reason to think that their interpretation is correct, and that is the entire ball of wax.
     
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  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You can believe whatever you want to believe but beliefs do not change reality.

    So if the Messiah has already come, you cannot change that by disbelieving in Him.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, I did not know that so thanks for telling me. That's how I learn.
    Okay, I did not know that so thanks for explaining that.
    Maybe you missed this part where I said:
    The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

    So that means that Judaism and Baha'i could be true even though many or most people don't believe in them.
    And who does not lash out at the Baha'is when they are stressed? I hope you realize that we are both minority religions and that Christians disagree with us even more than they disagree with the Jews. ;)
     
  10. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    And if he hasn't, as evidenced by the scriptures and the relevant expectations, you cannot change that by believing in anything.
     
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  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    But most religious believers do not believe based upon logic and reason, they believe because of tradition and emotion. Good luck trying to get through that impenetrable wall of belief. ;)
     
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  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Between the two great Bahá'í gardens that go halfway up the mountainside, runs a broad highway. Through the gates leading from this highway stream pilgrims and visitors from all parts of the world. They come with hearts full of joy and gladness, and the sound of their beautiful chanting can be heard on that mountainside. This, too, was foreseen by Isaiah:

    "And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein." (Isaiah 35:8).

    "And the ransomed of the LORD shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10).

    From: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
     
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  13. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    That is a big IF.

    What we cannot change, is the Message given by Baha'u'llah. So you have indeed stated the quandary.

    The change is in that Message. The Tree is in the seed and once planted, it takes time to grow.

    Regards Tony
     
  14. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Not to me.

    And I imagine
    You're standing here
    It's subliminal
    So inspirational
    Man of the world
    For all the good reasons
    Take away the pain
    And drink the wine

    You quote pithy lyrics that are relevant to you, I like this song by INXS.
     
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  15. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    Do you think that verse is a reference to the millennium reign of the Messiah?
     
  16. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    I firstly must state I hold the Tanakh in hight esteem.

    As to what else you offered, that's 100% OK, I am not hear to change your choices. Just offer that there is different ways of looking at the same scriptures.

    So to give a summary of replies to date, it would indicate that some of the Jews do not see any other interpretation of the given scriptures have any foundation and others see different aspects that are not as conservative.

    Regards Tony
     
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  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That regathering happened in 1844, right before Baha'u'llah received His Revelation in the Black Pit Prison 1852.

    Three specific promises were made by Jesus to His disciples. Jesus said that when these three things came to pass, He would return to earth.

    1. His Gospel would be preached everywhere on earth.
    2. The “times of the Gentiles” would be fulfilled, and the Jews would return to Israel (Palestine).
    3. All mankind would see “the abomination of desolation” foretold by Daniel the Prophet.


    For now, let’s look at that second promise: The “times of the Gentiles” would be fulfilled, and the Jews would return to Israel (Palestine).

    The second promise of Christ was just as easy to find. It was in the twenty-first chapter of Luke. This promise was also made by Christ in reply to a direct question asked by His disciples. They asked Him:

    “… When shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?” (Luke 21:7).

    Christ warned them of false prophets in that day, who would bear His name, then He gave them His second promise by which they could be sure of His own return. He said:

    “And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled … And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” (Luke 21:24–27.)

    The meaning of the term ‘times of the Gentiles’ was familiar and clear to Scriptural scholars. I learned that it denoted that period of time during which Jerusalem would be held in the power of aliens, non-Jews (or Gentiles), and during which the Jews themselves would be excluded from their homeland.

    In plain words, Christ promised that He would return to earth when the Jews came back to their homeland following their period of banishment. Thus, in the hour of their return, the ‘times of the Gentiles’ would be fulfilled.

    I made a careful study of Christ’s second promise. The first part of it said: “They shall be led away captive into all nations.” I found that within forty years of His crucifixion, this part of His promise began its fulfilment.

    Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman Titus, in AD 70, and the Jews were scattered and exiled. The Jews tried to regain their freedom in AD 132 under Bar Kochba, but they were crushed by the armies of the Roman Emperor Hadrian. This time Jerusalem was devastated even more completely than it had been by Titus. The site of the city was ploughed under and a new city, named in honour of Hadrian, was built upon the ruins.

    The Jews were banished. Many of them, exactly as had been foretold by Christ, fell ‘by the edge of the sword’. They fled, scattered and were ‘led away captive into all nations’.

    It was permissible for colonists to enter Jerusalem, but it was a crime punishable by death for a Jew to enter.

    The Romans were the first aliens (Gentiles) after the time of Christ to tread down the holy city of Jerusalem. The next aliens to seize and hold it captive were the Muslims. They conquered

    Jerusalem in AD 637 and upon the foundation of the Temple of Solomon, they

    raised the Mosque of Omar. During their period of occupation, Jews were largely excluded from their homeland, the few remaining being proscribed.

    The restriction came to end in the year 1844. Remarkable!

    The famous Irish scholar and author, George Townshend writes, “… the strict exclusion of the Jews from their own land enforced by the Muslims for some twelve centuries was at last relaxed by the Edict of Toleration and the ‘times of the Gentiles’ were fulfilled.” (God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, 1944 (Introduction by G. Townsend), p. iv)

    Townshend further points out that this document, the Edict of Toleration, was issued by the governing authorities in the year 1844.

    Worth Smith also mentions this Edict in his Miracle of the Ages. He points out: “In the year of AD 1844 … the (Muslims) under the leadership of Turkey were compelled by the Western Powers, notably England, to grant religious toleration to all (nations) within their borders.”

    This included the Holy Land, Palestine. I was able to secure and study copies of the original letters and documents that led to the signing of the so-called Edict of Toleration in 1844. The Turkish Government agreed to permit religious freedom and signed the document that guaranteed that ‘The Sublime Porte (Constantinople) engages to take effectual measures to prevent henceforward’ any further religious intolerance. For the first time in twelve hundred years the Jews were guaranteed the right to return to Israel in freedom and security. The date on this document was 21 March 1844.

    Bickersteth in A Practical Guide to the Prophecies, wrote: “In a letter from Tangiers, date 20 June 1844, given in the public journals, speaking of the difficulties besetting the kingdom of Morocco, it sated: ‘It seems that the Moors (Muslims) have always had forebodings of this year. For a long time they have been exhorting each other to beware of 1260 (1844) which according to our reckoning is the present year’.”

    These millennial scholars found strong confirmation in the New Testament itself that 1844 was the year intended by Christ for the fulfilment of His second promise concerning the ‘times of the Gentiles’. This confirmation came from the Book of Revelation. In chapter eleven it states:

    ‘And the Holy City (Jerusalem) shall they tread under foot for forty and two months.’

    Thus, for the first time in the Scriptures, the exact duration of the ‘times of the Gentiles’ is given. It will be for forty–two months. In the next verse of Revelation this period of time is given in yet another way. It is said that it will last for ‘1,260 days’.

    Bible scholars insisted that the end of this period of forty–two months or 1,260 days was identical with the year 1844. This fascinated me, so I set down their process of reasoning. They arrived at this conclusion by the following deductions:

    1. In the study of biblical prophecy, the period of time called a ‘day’ becomes a ‘year’ when calculating the passing of time:

    2. This theory was supported by the following prophecies.

    a) Numbers 14:34. “Even forty days, each day for a year.”

    b) Ezekiel 4:6. “I have appointed thee each day for a year.”

    There was general agreement on this formula.

    In the compilation The Story of Prophecy by Henry James Forman, I found the following: “… Biblical prophecy students, after a scrutiny of the entire problem of Bible chronology, deduce the following conclusions as virtually axiomatic—namely, that (1) ‘In symbolic prophecy a day is the symbol for a year …’”

    On this same subject, F. Hudgings in his Zionism in Prophecy writes: “A solar year, of course, contains a fraction over 365 days, but in computing ‘symbolic time’ as it is set forth in the Scripture, students of prophecy find that the writers simply divided the year into 12 months of 30 days each. In other words, a time or a year in Scriptural symbology refers to 360 solar years—each day representing a year.”

    Further study revealed that it was not such an arbitrary choice on the part of these students of Scripture as might at first appear.

    Their measuring rod was taken from the first book of the Bible, Genesis. The axiom of 360 days for a year or a time was derived from the following verses:

    1. Genesis 7:11—The waters of the flood came on the 17th day of the second month.

    2. Genesis 8:4—The waters abated and ceased on the 17th day of the seventh month.

    3. Genesis 7:24:—The waters prevailed upon the earth 150 days.

    From the 17th day of the second month to the 17th day of the seventh month was exactly five months. These five months took exactly 150 days. Therefore, they were five months of 30 days each. This, the scholars agreed, would make a year of 360 days, or 12 months of 30 days.

    Therefore, a day in calculating prophecy was a year of 360 days.

    By using this accepted formula of a day for a year, the scholars calculated that the Gentiles would tread the Holy City (Jerusalem) under foot for 1,260 years. Therefore, the prophecy from Revelation could now be read:

    “And the Holy City (Jerusalem) shall they tread under foot for 1260 years.”

    According to the second promise of Christ, these Gentiles (Romans-Muslims) would tread the city underfoot until the hour of His return which would be 1,260 years by the measurement of prophecy. During all that time, the Jews would be banished from their own land. However, in the hour of Christ’s return, the privilege of going home woul be restored to them, and the ‘times of the Gentiles’ would be ended.

    An examination of the calendar of the Muslims, who held the Holy City captive, revealed to these millennial scholars an astonishing thing: The year 1,260 of the calendar of the Muslims coincided with the year 1844 of the calendar of the Christians.

    The year 1,260 given in Revelation as the time when the days of the ‘Gentiles’ would be ended and the Jews would be permitted to return to their homeland, was the same year as that of 1844 when the Muslim rulers were forced to sign the Edict of Toleration permitting the return of the Jews to Israel.

    I began to understand the growing enthusiasm of the Bible scholars of the 1840s. Christ had promised that when the ‘times of the Gentiles’ was fulfilled, He would come back to earth. To these students of Scripture, the second promise of Christ was exactly fulfilled, and the date (1844) established without question.

    I was inclined to agree. This made me more eager than ever to test the third and final promise.

    From: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf
     
    #157 Trailblazer, Dec 31, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
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  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I also believe that, because that is a Baha'i belief.
     
  19. Skywalker

    Skywalker Well-Known Member

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    How could the abomination of desolation have happened already if there was no seven year peace treaty with Israel?
     
  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I fully agree that the way has already been shown although the way I believe was shown extended well beyond the way you believe was shown. ;)
     
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