Hillary applauds 11 year old kid for taking a knee.

[ImmortalFlame]

No I'm actually defending the people who died for this country from idiotic intrusion for something that should be theirs and there's alone.

You dragged them into this. Kaepernick has been very explicit in interviews that his taking a knee is specifically a show of respect for the troops, as advised by a former green beret and veteran. He is deliberately making an action to show respect for troops and has come out publically saying that he respects the troops and that is protest is partially about the lack of respect for what troops died for. Yet you keep saying he's disrespecting the troops. How can you be so blind? You can't even explain what is disrespectful out it. To you, "disrespectful" is just a label you put on an act of protest you don't like. Ultimately, this is not an issue of respect - it's an issue of you wishing to silence dissent by slandering those who peacefully protest. That's all it is.

You're just as bad as those with Westboro Baptist who indiscriminately go around disrespecting the people who died in service of the country who themselves fueled by personal agenda willingly shows such a display of incredible disrespect makes it abundantly clear to a lot of people that a whole lot of you clearly does not give a rat's *** over what should be sacrosanct as long as your message gets through right?

The fact that you think taking a knee - an act explicitly made to respect the troops - is as bad as picketing the funerals of dead soldiers just shows how incredibly warped your view on this subject is.

I can't believe how many people are so freaking selfish like that. Pretty pathetic and sad display people are making coupled with unfathomably **** poor attitudes when it comes to the country of your birth or naturalization whichever applies.

Once again, your view is clearly very, very warped. These protests are carried out to protest the abuses of other people's rights.

All I have to say is I'm pretty speechless at the amount of commentary on this thread alone in regards to their hatred of the National Anthem , the flag of our own country, and the pledge of Allegiance and a sense of nationality in general.

Except it's literally none of those things. The purpose of the protest has been made clear to you multiple times, and if you can't read and understand that by now, there's not much more we can do to help.

Honestly I'm utterly speechless by the sheer volume of negative commentary by a number of you as it pertains to criticism of the American flag and the pledge of allegiance where as a person just cannot give it a couple minutes to respectfully allow it to conclude and then state the case of contention and issues that need to be known in a high-profile setting.

The only negative criticism is coming from you, comparing people to the Westboro Baptists, calling people selfish, calling their actions disrespectful, and dragging dead soldiers into your muck-racking.

The real issue is that you don't agree with the stance they're taking, so rather than address their legitimate concerns, you'd rather deride them and anyone who supports them. Because it's easier for you to believe that everyone who disagrees with you must be some sort of horrible, inhuman monster, than for you to believe that maybe, just maybe, America has a problem with racism.

Because you'd rather defend racists than defend people's right to freedom of speech.

And that's VERY disturbing.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Even though I've posted a link to all of this before, I really wanted to cut and paste it in here as an example of what a reasonable, two-sided dialogue on this subject actually looks like.

When this whole thing started, Kaepernick actually sat during the national anthem. He made it very explicit to the press that this was a protest against racial discrimination carried out by the police against black people in America, and he also made it clear in interviews that he did not do it out of disrespect for the military in any way:


"I have great respect for the men and women that have fought for this country. I have family, I have friends that have gone and fought for this country. And they fight for freedom, they fight for the people, they fight for liberty and justice, for everyone. That’s not happening. People are dying in vain because this country isn’t holding their end of the bargain up, as far as giving freedom and justice, liberty to everybody. That’s something that’s not happening. I’ve seen videos, I’ve seen circumstances where men and women that have been in the military have come back and been treated unjustly by the country they have fought for, and have been murdered by the country they fought for, on our land. That’s not right."

(SOURCE: All the athletes who joined Kaepernick’s national anthem protest)


In response, Nate Boyer - a military veteran and Green Beret - wrote an open letter that was published in the Army Times, expressing his disagreement with Kaepernick's decision. Did he call him disrespectful? Did he liken him to the Westboro Baptists? Surprisingly enough, no! In a shock turn of events against all odds, he was actually thoroughly understanding and non-combative in his open letter, which stated, among other things:


"Unfortunately, I also know that racism still exists in our country, as it does in every other country on this planet, and I hate that I know that. I hate the third verse of our national anthem, but thankfully we don’t sing that verse anymore. I hate that at times I feel guilty for being white."


And...


"The only time I got to stand on the sideline for the anthem was during my one and only NFL preseason game, against the Denver Broncos. As I ran out of the tunnel with the American flag I could feel myself swelling with pride, and as I stood on the sideline with my hand on my heart as the anthem began, that swelling burst into tears.

"I thought about how far I’d come and the men I’d fought alongside who didn’t make it back. I thought about those overseas who were risking their lives at that very moment. I selfishly thought about what I had sacrificed to get to where I was, and while I knew I had little to no chance of making the Seahawks’ roster as a 34-year-old rookie, I was trying.

"That moment meant so much more to me than even playing in the game did, and to be honest, if I had noticed my teammate sitting on the bench, it would have really hurt me.

"I’m not judging you for standing up for what you believe in. It’s your inalienable right. What you are doing takes a lot of courage, and I’d be lying if I said I knew what it was like to walk around in your shoes. I’ve never had to deal with prejudice because of the color of my skin, and for me to say I can relate to what you’ve gone through is as ignorant as someone who’s never been in a combat zone telling me they understand what it’s like to go to war."


And here is the really freaking important part:


"Even though my initial reaction to your protest was one of anger, I’m trying to listen to what you’re saying and why you’re doing it. When I told my mom about this article, she cautioned me that "the last thing our country needed right now was more hate." As usual, she’s right.

"There are already plenty people fighting fire with fire, and it’s just not helping anyone or anything. So I’m just going to keep listening, with an open mind.

"I look forward to the day you're inspired to once again stand during our national anthem. I'll be standing right there next to you. Keep on trying … De Oppresso Liber."

(FULL LETTER HERE: An open letter to Colin Kaepernick, from a Green Beret-turned-long snapper)


Kaepernick read the letter, and his response - also somewhat unbelievably - was not to immediately start a flame war or disown the military. In a second absolutely shocking twist of events, he personally met with Nate Boyer, specifically to discuss with him what form of protest he could take instead that wouldn't alienate the military and would dignify their actions with respect.

Rather than tell him just not to protest and to just shut up and do as he's told, Nate Boyer advised that he was better off taking a knee rather than remaining seated, and to tell the press that this was a show of solidarity and respect for the armed forces. His reasoning was given in a subsequent interview:


"We sorta came to a middle ground where he would take a knee alongside his teammates," Boyer says. "Soldiers take a knee in front of a fallen brother's grave, you know, to show respect. When we're on a patrol, you know, and we go into a security halt, we take a knee, and we pull security."

Asked by Gumbel if Kap was "receptive" to his ideas, Boyer described him as "very receptive."

"Very receptive. He said, 'I think that would be-- I think-- I think that would be really powerful,'" Boyer recalls. "And, you know, he asked me to do it with him. And I said, 'Look, I'll stand next to you. I gotta stand though. I gotta stand with my hand on my heart. That's just-- that's just what I do and where I'm from.'"

(SOURCE: Here's how Nate Boyer got Colin Kaepernick to go from sitting to kneeling)


So, two people who had a disagreement actually met to discuss their differences and come to a compromise out of mutual respect and understanding for each other's positions, and that "selfish, Westboro-esque" Kaepernick cared enough about a veteran's point of view to meet with him, discuss their position in detail, and change his protest in accordance with the veteran's requests.

Just imagine we lived in such a world where that was possible, rather than having to believe the people whose peaceful protest against racism we disagreed with are awful, horrible people who deserve to be hated and condemned. Imagine a world where the meaning behind what somebody does is actually more important and worth discussing than the specific form his protest about that thing takes.

But, obviously, such a world is entirely fictional in the minds of many people. Which is the real tragedy.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You dragged them into this. Kaepernick has been very explicit in interviews that his taking a knee is specifically a show of respect for the troops, as advised by a former green beret and veteran. He is deliberately making an action to show respect for troops and has come out publically saying that he respects the troops and that is protest is partially about the lack of respect for what troops died for. Yet you keep saying he's disrespecting the troops. How can you be so blind? You can't even explain what is disrespectful out it. To you, "disrespectful" is just a label you put on an act of protest you don't like. Ultimately, this is not an issue of respect - it's an issue of you wishing to silence dissent by slandering those who peacefully protest. That's all it is.


The fact that you think taking a knee - an act explicitly made to respect the troops - is as bad as picketing the funerals of dead soldiers just shows how incredibly warped your view on this subject is.


Once again, your view is clearly very, very warped. These protests are carried out to protest the abuses of other people's rights.


Except it's literally none of those things. The purpose of the protest has been made clear to you multiple times, and if you can't read and understand that by now, there's not much more we can do to help.


The only negative criticism is coming from you, comparing people to the Westboro Baptists, calling people selfish, calling their actions disrespectful, and dragging dead soldiers into your muck-racking.

The real issue is that you don't agree with the stance they're taking, so rather than address their legitimate concerns, you'd rather deride them and anyone who supports them. Because it's easier for you to believe that everyone who disagrees with you must be some sort of horrible, inhuman monster, than for you to believe that maybe, just maybe, America has a problem with racism.

Because you'd rather defend racists than defend people's right to freedom of speech.

And that's VERY disturbing.

Your still spouting BS. I'll continue defending those that died for this country. It's not me but those that dragged the anthem to be used as a lever and platform for personal issues rather than leaving it alone for the respect it deserves . There's plenty of servicemen including a number in Special Operations who will counter that sorry excuse for using the Pledge of Allegiance as a tool including myself. I know several personally in and out of the service who are ired by all of it including those who actively served in Vietnam.

It doesn't mean a thing.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Your still spouting BS.

That's literally the only argument you've managed in response to me pointing out the facts.

I'll continue defending those that died for this country.

But you're not, you're just attacking people for exercising their right to freedom of speech and peaceful protest. While simultaneously disrespecting those who died protecting those rights by using them as political props.

It's not me but those that dragged the anthem to be used as a lever and platform for personal issues rather than leaving it alone for the respect it deserves.

So your problem isn't with people "disrespecting the troops", it's with people exercising their right to freedom of speech.

Did it ever cross your mind that the best way to pay the anthem respect is to fully represent and stand for what it is supposed to stand for, and that taking a knee in acknowledgement of the fact that America isn't living up to those values is more respectful?

I guess not. Because the only opinion that should be allowed is yours.

There's plenty of servicemen including a number in Special Operations who will counter that sorry excuse for using the Pledge of Allegiance as a tool including myself.

And your opinions are noted and disagreed with, because you have nothing to actually back them up with other than calling opinions "BS".

I know several personally in and out of the service who are ired by all of it including those who actively served in Vietnam.

And why should this matter? Kaepernick spoke publicly in support of the troops when his protest started, he informed the public his protest was partially inspired by the fact that troops made sacrifices and were still being treated poorly by the very country they fought and died for, he personally met with a veteran Green Beret who disagreed with the form of his protest specifically to work out a form of protest that made respecting the troops a more clear part of it, he and the veteran worked out a form of protest deliberately designed to acknowledge and respect the sacrifices of troops and stand in solidarity with those who died and whose who continued to serve.

What else do you want? Because it sounds to me like the only concession you'll accept is his silence.

It doesn't mean a thing.

You have no idea because you're not remotely interested in what the protest represents, why it's happening or the justification for it.

You've proven time and time again that you are completely incapable of debating this subject openly, honestly and rationally. Do yourself a favour and read the above post I made and try to demonstrate some actual capacity for learning and understanding another point of view. Your intolerance of people's right to peaceful protest is an insult to your fellow servicemen who died so that the citizens of America could have that right.

Why do you care so much about people kneeling for the anthem when you're happy to s**t on what America is supposed to stand for?

 

[Twilight Hue]

That's literally the only argument you've managed in response to me pointing out the facts.


But you're not, you're just attacking people for exercising their right to freedom of speech and peaceful protest. While simultaneously disrespecting those who died protecting those rights by using them a political props.


So your problem isn't with people "disrespecting the troops", it's with people exercising their right to freedom of speech.

Did it ever cross your mind that the best way to pay the anthem respect is to fully represent and stand for what it is supposed to stand for, and that taking a knee in acknowledgement of the fact that America isn't living up to those values is more respectful?

I guess not. Because the only opinion that should be allowed is yours.


And your opinions are noted and disagreed with, because you have nothing to actually back them up with other than calling opinions "BS".


And why should this matter?


You have no idea because you're not remotely interested in what the protest represents, why it's happening or the justification for it.

You've proven time and time again that you are completely incapable of debating this subject openly, honestly and rationally. Do yourself a favour and read the above post I made and try to demonstrate some actual capacity for learning and understanding another point of view. Your intolerance of people's right to peaceful protest is an insult to your fellow servicemen who died so that the citizens of America could have that right.

Why do you care so much about people kneeling for the anthem when you're happy to s**t on what America is supposed to stand for?

Still spouting BS. The only facts you're pointing out is how to disregard and disrespect the anthem itself with the refusal to leave it alone as it is.

If people want to dilute its meaning for people and future Generations, I wouldn't want to be in your sorry state along with people when one day nobody will realize what it means and signifies on a foundational level. It's just something for taking a knee with to selfishly put your issues ahead of the very symbolism that people now want to dilute with their issues. That's all it's going to be and mean someday, henceforth known to be the national anthem card. A common tool for activist use.


People like you just can't leave it alone and allow it to remain for what it is can you? Then State your case afterwards? No, I really don't think you can do that.

Let me ask you this.. Why is the Anthem itself being targeted and used as a tool for issues and has taking a knee so far really brought about anything from all of it ?

Other than of course, Hillary applauding 11 year old kids for being disrespectful.

 

[metis]

Why is the Anthem itself being targeted and used as a tool for issues and has taking a knee so far really brought about anything from all of it ?

And what do you hate the 1st Amendment's "freedom of speech" clause that the SCOTUS has repeatedly ruled that civil protests that don't hurt anyone are indeed constitutional?

 

[Twilight Hue]

And what do you hate the 1st Amendment's "freedom of speech" clause that the SCOTUS has repeatedly ruled that civil protests that don't hurt anyone are indeed constitutional?

Really?

Like even on their own front porch?

Protesters have no free-speech rights on Supreme Court’s front porch

 

[esmith]

Burning the U.S. Flag has been ruled protected free speech by the SCOTUS, and as much as I disagree with it I have to accept it. So, is kneeling during the playing the National Anthem within the same category; Probably so? However, what is happening in this case is a decision that has to be made by the team owners. The players are employees of each franchise and must abide by the rules established by the employer. Now if the employers make it a rule, either the players can abide by those rules or quit or go on strike; that is their prerogative. So, it will come down to a business decision. If the teams are losing money because of this, the owners and the NFL will make a decision one way or another.

 

[metis]

Really?

Ya, really.

Like even on their own front porch?

The right of assembly, also found in the 1st Amendment, does not state that one can protest anywhere they want. However, a protest still cannot be stopped from assembling somewhere nearby. Also, times of protest can be regulated.

But either way, your post above is simply a deflection from reality. Maybe go to Putin's Russia whereas I'm sure they'd be more than happy to have one who doesn't like or want freedom of speech. Go make yourself right at home there, NW.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Ya, really.

The right of assembly, also found in the 1st Amendment, does not state that one can protest anywhere they want. However, a protest still cannot be stopped from assembling somewhere nearby. Also, times of protest can be regulated.

But either way, your post above is simply a deflection from reality. Maybe go to Putin's Russia whereas I'm sure they'd be more than happy to have one who doesn't like or want freedom of speech. Go make yourself right at home there, NW.

Well easy solution then. Hold the protest outside the game.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Your still spouting BS. I'll continue defending those that died for this country. It's not me but those that dragged the anthem to be used as a lever and platform for personal issues rather than leaving it alone for the respect it deserves . There's plenty of servicemen including a number in Special Operations who will counter that sorry excuse for using the Pledge of Allegiance as a tool including myself. I know several personally in and out of the service who are ired by all of it including those who actively served in Vietnam.

It doesn't mean a thing.

You really need to read and take in post #103.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You really need to read and take in post #103.

What's really needed is a generation like in the 40s who actually showed far more respect and had a very healthy sense of nationality and patriotism.

Not this pathetic generation of people that clearly has no interest in preservation nor the reverence and respect for national icons and symbols that so many people worked hard and died for. It's for those people that deserve it far more than you and me ever will although we can rightfully claim as being a part of it. However I don't think we have the right to disgrace it the way it's been disgraced already.


What you really need and take in is a proper education as to why the anthem among other American icons are there in the first place and what they mean, as well as the reason why they should be preserved and left alone not just for our benefit but for other people as well in the future.

 

[Twilight Hue]

When the Anthem is over no one cares they snap out of their trance and go on with their lives. No one will notice someone trying to talk after* the anthem about how something that is symbolic of this nation is ignoring a chunk of it's citizens.

You are ignoring the entire point of the taking a knee during the anthem.


Say your cousin is a black guy, and he comes home decorated like a Christmas tree. Then 3 months after his multi tour he gets arrested on a simple traffic violation while he has no warrant and, is beaten to death by cops in the holding cell. Footage revealed/leaked shows that they beat him to death over him asking for his phone call, and he didn't resist. Then post death they talk how awesome it felt to beat him to death. Then the courts that are supposed to preside over these cases finds nothing wrong with the police officers' actions and the "problem goes away."

Investigative reports shows that these same officers have been involved in half a dozen "questionable deaths" under their supervision. These scumbags represent the law and the law represents the government, and the sole function of a government is to provide for the people under it's care.

The government fails its people when there is no oversight for those that enforce it's laws. Laws are above everyone. If you commit a crime, no matter who you are you should pay the consequences. A hell of a lot of people's deaths go unanswered for at the hands of the police.

That is what people are taking a knee for.

There are hundreds of videos out there for you to look up to see just how barbaric some police officers are. And they act in a manner like they can't be touched by the law, why? Because the system that is supposed to govern them? Ignores it, overlooks it, the blue code demands that police can do no wrong. And if wrong is committed, to shut the **** up and don't talk about it.

Tell me what taking a knee has accomplished so far.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

'll continue defending those that died for this country.

You have a peculiar way of doing this, going on about how angered you are over someone expressing a right that they have because of the "someone defending and dying for this country."

However I don't think we have the right to disgrace it the way it's been disgraced already.

What you think is not what the courts have ruled as law. The courts have already ruled to preserve disrespecting/desecrating the flag as a right protected by the Constitution.

What you really need and take in is a proper education as to why the anthem among other American icons are there in the first place and what they mean, as well as the reason why they should be preserved and left alone not just for our benefit but for other people as well in the future.

The Star Spangled Banner was a British drinking song reworded into a song about war. In the Pledge, "under god" was added to divide and highlight differences. Why can't and shouldn't we have a peaceful anthem? Why should we not work towards preserving a secular state and doing away with "under god" and "in god we trust?" And, seriously, what's up with pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth? Why not a pledge to the ideals that have shaped and molded America?

 

[CruzNichaphor]

Oh yes? This should be good. Please share it?

Satre has no idea who I am or anything about my personal conduct; therefore she has no evidence that I raped an 11 year old.

 

[SkepticThinker]

What's really needed is a generation like in the 40s who actually showed far more respect and had a very healthy sense of nationality and patriotism.

Not this pathetic generation of people that clearly has no interest in preservation nor the reverence and respect for national icons and symbols that so many people worked hard and died for. It's for those people that deserve it far more than you and me ever will although we can rightfully claim as being a part of it. However I don't think we have the right to disgrace it the way it's been disgraced already.


What you really need and take in is a proper education as to why the anthem among other American icons are there in the first place and what they mean, as well as the reason why they should be preserved and left alone not just for our benefit but for other people as well in the future.

Okay, so I guess that's a "No."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Satre has no idea who I am or anything about my personal conduct; therefore she has no evidence that I raped an 11 year old.

But can you prove you didn't do it?

 

[lukethethird]

What are anthems and flags doing at a sporting event anyways?

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

Satre has no idea who I am or anything about my personal conduct; therefore she has no evidence that I raped an 11 year old.

Doesn't answer the question. You claimed you had evidence that you DIDN'T rape someone. Present it, please.

 

[CruzNichaphor]

Doesn't answer the question. You claimed you had evidence that you DIDN'T rape someone. Present it, please.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

If you're attempting to flip my facetious comment about Bill Clinton, I suggest you help yourself to a common law legal textbook and educate yourself on "circumstantial evidence".

Cute attempt though