He does. You need to worry about yourself with your un-Christlike attitude. Christ didn't treat people like you are here. Take your self-righteousness elsewhere.
Now do you want to get back to the topic at hand or continue being rude?
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Having no gender vs. having more than one
- Thread starter Eddi
- Start date
Now do you want to get back to the topic at hand or continue being rude?
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Medical fact. 99.9999% of humans have either 1 X chromosome and 1 Y chromosome or 2 X chromosomes. Are there exceptions? Maybe one in a billion. Those with 2 X's are called females and those with 1 X and 1 Y are called males. A male may take hormones are surgically remove parts of his body but nothing can change his chromosomes. He is still a male. He can wear a dress and lipstick and high heels. He is still a male. Now if he tells people he is a male who takes hormomes and had surgery and wears a dress, I have no problem with that. But when he tells people he is a female, that is the problem . If he was born with 1 X and 1 Y chromosome, he will always be a male. Nothing can change that and that is the medical reality. We will not deal with the one in a billion that have a true medical problem.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Well, let's see. YOU mentioned passing me in a bathroom and said I would not notice. I assume we are both fully dressed and so it would be hard to notice anything. So I asked if I would notice anything if we were in a locker room. If there is any difference in how we look, that would be the place to notice. So you ask why I am looking at people and ask if it is a gay establishment. It seems like you are being rude for suggesting that I go to gay establishments and stare at people. I have not tried to be rude and have only followed your lead. The only way I can get back to the topic is to say that nothing you can do will change the chromosomes you were born with and that determine your gender. If you have come up with some new medical science that is different from that, let me know and we can discuss it.
I was being sarcastic. First, I'm not going to talk about my body with you since it's none of your business. I don't talk about that with anyone unless I feel like it (very rare). So you don't know what my body looks like and shouldn't assume. When it comes to the locker room, is it very common for people to see each other's genitals in there? I ask because I haven't been in a locker room since high school and I never saw any nudity in there. There are ways to shower and change modestly, you know. Most people don't want to go about nude in front of strangers.
Chromosomes (like DNA) are more like blueprints and things can go wrong. Transsexualism may actually be a sort of intersex condition or related to that category.
What does that have to do with anything? How rare something is determines whether it's an illness? Again, you are speaking in ignorance.
Why? Why is it such a problem?
You are conflating sex and gender. Gender is psychosocial. Sex is biological. Intersex individuals exist, which is more complex than your simplistic understanding of sex chromosomes. Gender, although related, is distinct.
The fact is, if you want to deal in facts, that for millennia, across time and culture, there have been individuals who do not conform to the gender norms of their culture, or are psychologically more aligned with the opposite gender, or a blend of the two. In some cultures, even non-Western ones, these people have been identified as being a third gender, centuries ago. Whatever label we want to put on these individuals, the moral of the story is that both our sex and gender binaries are overly simplistic and do not describe all individuals. And there is nothing "wrong" with individuals who don't conform to our binary constructs of how males or females are "supposed" to act or identify or be. They are simply different. What is so hard to accept about that?
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
OK Thank you for that. Here is how I see things. My opinion. You either have 2 X chromosomes or 1 X and 1 Y. Matbe one person in a billion has a true medical condition where this is not true. I do not think that is you. If you have 1 X and one Y chromosome, you are a male. If you have 2 X's you are female. You can take hormones or have surgery but you cannot change that. If you are a male and you like to wear dresses and high heals, I have no problem with that. Or if you are female and wear "men's" clothing, I have no problem with that. My problem is that if you are male and tell people you are female, that is not true. You are a male who likes to wear female clothes and do female things. Same thing goes if you are female and tell people you are male. Nothing you can do will change your chromosomes and you are only lying to yourself and others if you tell them you are something you are not. I would have no problem being a friend to you if you were honest about yourself. I have had some contact with men who liked other men but they did not pretend to be women. I had no problem being around them. It is pretending to be something you are not that is the problem for me.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Here is my opinion. I do not care how a person acts or dresses. If a man wants to wear womwns clothing and lipstick that is his business. I do not care. But when a man takes hormones and has his organs removed and then says he is now a woman, he is lying to himself. He is still a man who wears womens clothing but now has no sex organs. A man who is 5 feet tall can say he is an NBA basketball player but he is not. He may even have surgery to lenghten his legs but he is still not an NBA player. He is lying to himself and others. There is nothing "wrong" with them but they are not being honest.
You can go on about chromosomes all you please, but it doesn't matter. Transsexualism ks a medical condition and it's mostly likely caused by hormonal issues in utero. There's evidence, for example, that female to male transsexuals (FTMS) are exposed to high levels of androgens in the womb, especially if you look at neurological and digit ratio studies. There were genes found to be associated with trans women, too. I will find links to all this if you want. Basically something happens in the womb to cause the brain to be exposed to the "wrong" hormones and this evidentially causes the cross-sex identity as well as dysphoria.
I'm a man with a medical condition. Do you know how silly you sound saying that it's just a mental illness that can be treated? Really? You think I wouldn't have rather just gone to therapy instead of having to go on hormone therapy for for my whole life, have surgeries, go through the hassle and cost of changing legal name and sex, etc.? Why would anyone choose that of it was just a mental illness that can be treated with talk therapy? How crazy do you think we are? I hate being trans and would give anything to not be trans. But I am. I never perceived or experienced myself as a girl, woman or female. Ever. I don't know what that's like. I was always male in my perception of self. Just something's amiss with the body.
"Being a man" or "being a woman" means more than simply which sex chromosomes you have. The world is more complex than your opinion. So no, trans people are not lying when they say they identify with a different gender than the one they were assigned at birth. Trans people are well aware of the difference between their biological bodies and their psychological gender identity.
And as much as you say you "don't care," your actions indicate you do care, for some reason. Or your wouldn't be so stuck on this idea that people are "lying" because they genuinely identify differently than you.
Yeah, I mean being aware of our bodies is kind of why we have dysphoria on the first place.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
First, I do not trust everytghing on Wikipedia. Second. Maybe it is not one in a billion but some high schools have a dozen or more students who say they are some other gender. True medical situations are not that common. They are using this as a way to get attention or rebel against society. Just say you are a guy who likes womens clothes or a gal who likes mens clothes. Don't put your body through hormones and surgery to try to be something you are not.
You're mixing up a lot of different things there. Possibly confused young people trying on different identities as they try to figure themselves out, are not the same as transsexuals who have strong dysphoria and a persistent cross-sex identity. The former rarely ever transition medically, or even really socially. When they do, they usually soon realize it was a mistake and stop. Transsexuals would rather die than detransition. When you get far enough long, you can't ever really detransition, anyway. With me, it would be more a question of 'detransition into what?' since I never lived as or really was a girl/woman in the first place. All I know is being a guy.
The medical literature from which the stats are pulled are cited in the article. If you pulled "one in a billion" from somewhere other than your rectum, show me.
Not everyone who identifies as an "other gender" takes hormones or has surgery. The number of teenagers taking those measures is quite small.
As far as teenagers doing things to get attention or rebel against society...so what? Teenagers have been doing that for quite some time. So if it's all "just a phase," it'll pass and you have nothing to be worried about.
Why are people only allowed to identify the way you think they should? Gender is complicated. People honestly identify differently than you. What is so difficult to accept about that?
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
I think you have missed the point. I have said nothing about "identifying". If a man wants to say he "feels like" a woman or "identifies" with women, that is one thing. But when a man says he IS awoman, that is different.A little boy can grow up felling or identifying like a woman but he CANNOT grow up to BE a woman. That is the lie. A man with no sex organ may act and feel like a woman but he is NOT a woman.
No, I'm afraid you have missed the point.
Again, this comes back to what it means to "be a man" or "be a woman." The question of what those terms mean is more complex than which sex chromosomes you have. This is the point you seem not to grasp. I'm not sure how else I can explain it to you.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your honesty. I will just ask one question. Do you say that you are a female who perceives herself as male? Or do you say you ARE male? I have no problem with the first but I might question the second.
I'm a man. I don't care what you have a problem with or question. No one calls me by female pronouns and I certainly don't go by them. Most don't know, and don't need to. I don't even have to be saying this, nor should I.
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Thanks again for your honesty. I will say no more.