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Having no gender vs. having more than one

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
There exist only 3 genders.

Female, Male and intersex

Evidence?... Science!
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
OK Thank you for that. Here is how I see things. My opinion. You either have 2 X chromosomes or 1 X and 1 Y. Matbe one person in a billion has a true medical condition where this is not true. I do not think that is you. If you have 1 X and one Y chromosome, you are a male. If you have 2 X's you are female. You can take hormones or have surgery but you cannot change that. If you are a male and you like to wear dresses and high heals, I have no problem with that. Or if you are female and wear "men's" clothing, I have no problem with that. My problem is that if you are male and tell people you are female, that is not true. You are a male who likes to wear female clothes and do female things. Same thing goes if you are female and tell people you are male. Nothing you can do will change your chromosomes and you are only lying to yourself and others if you tell them you are something you are not. I would have no problem being a friend to you if you were honest about yourself. I have had some contact with men who liked other men but they did not pretend to be women. I had no problem being around them. It is pretending to be something you are not that is the problem for me.

I know I'm not part of this conversation, and kinda feel that your opinions are not too educated (being honest here), but I did want to give you some resources if you're interested in looking at them. I've never came across someone who was transgender if my cousin was not. I'm not a doctor (and I don't believe you are?) but, here's something I found when I educated myself on this topic. I had similar opinions as you but after some research (though I'm not transgender myself), I came away with similar knowledge as people are saying here. It doesn't affect me to change my opinion (which I did) and it takes a lot of strength to do so, but in some cases-especially, say, if you have transgender children-it is worth the interest.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-03-brain-transgender-people.html The finding cannot be seen as indicating specificity, however. "The insula is a region with multiple elements," he said, adding, "There's no such thing as a typically female or male brain. There are slight structural differences, which are far more subtle than the difference in genitals, for example. Brain structures vary greatly among individuals."

The Brain and Gender Identity: Current Evidence and Implications for Practice (Podcast) – Consult QD Dr. Altinay promotes the term “brain gender,” observing that “the brain actually is the main source when it comes to understanding your own gender and gender identity.” The above is a podcast.

You're right... one is biologically a male or female based on the chromosomes. The study is showing the different brain structures of transgender and non-transgender persons and how it depends on the brain structure and other facts that also determine whether one is male or female.

The problem, the dysphoria has little to do with chromosomes and more to do how a person perceives his or her body. For example (this is the closest.... I can't remember who gave me this example on RF or an LGBQ forum I used to go to)...

Say you went into a car accident (heaven forbid) and broke your leg. They have to amputate your leg in order for you to survive. When they do, you are not yet used to not having a leg. It's called a phantom limb 5 Ways to Deal With Phantom Limb Pain After Amputation – Health Essentials from Cleveland Clinic The sensation, the "feeling" is still there even though the limb has been cut off.

The same with gender dysphoria (so exampled). When you are young at age (so children don't lie), transgender children don't feel connected to their bodies. They have chromosomes, they are biologically male or female, but mentally they have a phantom feeling-that is not their body. That is not Who they are. For example, they may feel something "should be" down there, but it isn't. They may look at their breast and say "this is too much" and can't describe that feeling. It's dysphoria.

So, in order to relieve that feeling, since they can't put back on the limb (in my analogy), they have surgery and therapies to correct it. Instead of going throughout their whole life feeling disconnected, when they have treatment, they feel better.

A lot of people have this feeling ever since they are young--many in households that know nothing about transgender, are religious, and have strict expectations of what it means to be a male or female. Therefore, if one does not have the information to lie about, and children are considered innocent minded, when they complain about their body and who they are, they are telling the truth.

To call that lying or ignorance would totally devalue the child's feelings and people commit suicide because of it.

-

Another note... I read you mentioned gay in relation to transgender. I want to clear that up.

Take away sex (chromosomes and genitalia) for a minute. When you experience attraction, you may (generalizing), have an erection, feel butterflies in your stomach.....and.... want to form a relationship, and feel a tie an inner attraction that's totally biological and psychological (and spiritual). We experience these things in and of itself. The body and neurology doesn't say what it wants to do. That's our culture and religion.

Now, with that same experience, say someone who does not look male or female (androgynous) meets you. You guys hang out, have a wonderful conversation, and NEVER think of sex but still attracted to each other, that's beautiful.

The problem is that we judge our bodies and tell ourselves we are wrong or we can change not based on our own feelings but by the external looks of the people we may be attracted to. Instead of trying to control your who you are attracted to, just develop a healthy attraction with the person you love and want to form a relationship with. Male or female is relevant to the attraction but it isn't relevant to the ethical and spirituality of it-only to those religious who define people and relationships by sex.

Many of us just don't define people by sex.

But all of this has nothing to do with gender dysphoria, brain structure, and body connection. It's specific to the same body reaction to different objects of attraction.

Anyway. I hope you read all of this to give you some insight.

It's not a topic (sexual orientation for me as a lesbian) that I really have cause it brings up too many emotions. But I do feel education is a huge asset and even if one day in the future your views of the medical would and people may change, that doesn't mean you have to change your ethics and religious values.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
God only made two. Male and female. Anything else is a product of man's ungodly mind.

4 Things to Understand About People Living With Being Intersex

All of what we are speaking of: sexual orientation, gender dysphoria, intersex

Have all biological and psychological components. They're not gender expression, wanting to be fad, or anything similar. People back when used to think Epilepsy was from demon possession and they thought sexual orientation was a illness based on the person attracted to and not the attraction itself.

All of this is medical based. Despite people's feelings on the issue.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
4 Things to Understand About People Living With Being Intersex

All of what we are speaking of: sexual orientation, gender dysphoria, intersex

Have all biological and psychological components. They're not gender expression, wanting to be fad, or anything similar. People back when used to think Epilepsy was from demon possession and they thought sexual orientation was a illness based on the person attracted to and not the attraction itself.

All of this is medical based. Despite people's feelings on the issue.
I am sure this subject is very complex and important for those affected by it. They want to make it a very difficult thing to understand. But it can be seen very simply. A monkey normally has a tail. A human does not. If you take a monkey and cut off its tail you did not turn it into a human. A male human has certain organs that a human female does not have. If you take a male and remove those organs you did not change him into a woman. If a male wants to say he is a male without a male organ or he feels like a femake or he identifies as a female, that may all be true. But when a male says he IS a female, that is not true. You may take the tailless monkey and put human clothing on it and teach it to ride a bike but it is still not a human. You may take the organ-less male and put female clothing on him and lipstick but he is still not a female. There is a difference between felling like or identifying with or acting like a female and actually being a female. Can you see the difference between saying " I am a man with no male organ who wears female clothing" and "I am a woman"? That is the difference and that is the part that is in the brain.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I am sure this subject is very complex and important for those affected by it. They want to make it a very difficult thing to understand. But it can be seen very simply. A monkey normally has a tail. A human does not. If you take a monkey and cut off its tail you did not turn it into a human. A male human has certain organs that a human female does not have.

If you take a male and remove those organs you did not change him into a woman. If a male wants to say he is a male without a male organ or he feels like a female or he identifies as a female, that may all be true. But when a male says he IS a female, that is not true. You may take the tailless monkey and put human clothing on it and teach it to ride a bike but it is still not a human.

You may take the organ-less male and put female clothing on him and lipstick but he is still not a female. There is a difference between felling like or identifying with or acting like a female and actually being a female. Can you see the difference between saying " I am a man with no male organ who wears female clothing" and "I am a woman"? That is the difference and that is the part that is in the brain.

Numbered for clarity

1. When a transgender female says "I am a female" she is not referring to her sex and chromosomes but her sense of self (say spirit?) that defines her as a male or female. This sense of self/identity/mind is not pretended or made up. It was studied as part of the brain structure between male and female brains. Somewhat like both male and female have estrogen (Estrogen in men: Symptoms of high and low levels, and more) even though estrogen is predominately a female hormone. Humans aren't cookie cutters.

I'm not too clear with the monkey example.

2. Changing your genitalia, I agree, does not change you "biologically" to the other sex. Most trangender would agree with you. No magic pills to make one biologically the other sex.

Here's where you two part. When a person looks in the mirror and does not identify with his or her body, that's a sense of dissociation (for example, if you noticed you have larger breast because of too much estrogen-let's say-and its not from a medical condition, you'd probably have a sense of "this is not me" but can't quite put a finger on it-that's dissociation; that's gender dysphoria).

3. In order to relieve dysphoria (say with you/or John Doe and bigger breasts-using for example), religion aside, most likely you'd want to cut those things off so your dysphoria would subside or go away.

That's why the surgery. Not because they want to culturally look or act like the other sex, but because of their brain and neurology, they are changing to adapt to who they know they are despite their sex.

4. The male and female clothing part is a stereotype. Female wearing male pants and males wearing a dress are cultural taboos. It used to refer to those who are crossdressers by definition.

In transgender case, a male dressing like a female has nothing medically to do with her sex and gender. Sex is chromones and biology and gender who you are as a male or female. It has nothing to do with clothes.

I understand why people don't understand with gender, sex, and the brain but the clothes switching is a stereotype and I hope you realize material isn't a determinate to someone's mental and physical state. It's just how they express themselves culture wise. Nothing more than that.

I'm just speaking from what I know and learned not as an expert-remember, if you want to know about something, ask the people who experience it and take their views as fact. You don't have to agree with how they interpret their views, but like epilepsy, and depression, regardless how both parties express their views, the condition exists nonetheless.
 
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lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
You say that when a trans female says "I am female" she is referring to her SENSE of self. So her SENSE of self does not match reality. It is a mental problem and not a physical one. It should be treated as a mental issue and not by cutting off body parts to make the physical body match that false SENSE of self. The person is unable to accept reality. If I look in a mirror and see a 5 foot 2 inch tall white male but I SENSE myself as a 6 foot 7 inch Black basketball star does that mean I should get surgery to make my legs longer and put coloring on my skin? I still would not be a basketball star. I have to face reality. And so should people who SENSE themselves to be some other gender than their body says they are.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You say that when a trans female says "I am female" she is referring to her SENSE of self. So her SENSE of self does not match reality. It is a mental problem and not a physical one. It should be treated as a mental issue and not by cutting off body parts to make the physical body match that false SENSE of self. The person is unable to accept reality. If I look in a mirror and see a 5 foot 2 inch tall white male but I SENSE myself as a 6 foot 7 inch Black basketball star does that mean I should get surgery to make my legs longer and put coloring on my skin? I still would not be a basketball star. I have to face reality. And so should people who SENSE themselves to be some other gender than their body says they are.

I just so happen to catch this. If this was to me, you gotta buzz me.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
You say that when a trans female says "I am female" she is referring to her SENSE of self. So her SENSE of self does not match reality. It is a mental problem and not a physical one.

It should be treated as a mental issue and not by cutting off body parts to make the physical body match that false SENSE of self. The person is unable to accept reality. If I look in a mirror and see a 5 foot 2 inch tall white male but I SENSE myself as a 6 foot 7 inch Black basketball star does that mean I should get surgery to make my legs longer and put coloring on my skin? I still would not be a basketball star. I have to face reality. And so should people who SENSE themselves to be some other gender than their body says they are.

There was a good example I mentioned but didn't want to place you in an uncomfortable spot.

Say John Doe was born with breasts (more estrogen than his male peers). As a male, ideally, he would have a chest not breasts. However, that's not how he was born. Because our sense of self is also the mind not just our neurons of the brain, he may have some dissociation. How he feels/sense of self is not aligned with what he sees and his physical characteristics. In this scenario, say all men are supposed to be born with flat chests. John grown up with breasts. His sense of self associates with a person who has a flat chest but he was born with breasts.

He can either live with that disassociation and be in mental distress (say depression, anxiety, suicide), or he can have surgery to be like other males who naturally have flat chests. Once he has surgery, he feels better about himself-his attitude, his mental health, his physical health, and so forth. It helps his well-being.

In transgender, it's practically the same thing. If John Doe was born a male but had the sense he is a female, it's not because he choose to be, it's because his brain structure is that of a female (like a flat chest is that of a male) but he was born as a male (chromosomes and genitalia) even though his brain is in conflict with it.

He can either develop depression, anxiety, and so forth because his brain structure doesn't align with what he sees or, because our mental health is controlled by brain and psych, he can change his physical self and align with who he is mentally, emotionally, psychologically, "and" neurologically.

It should be treated as a mental issue and not by cutting off body parts to make the physical body match that false SENSE of self. The person is unable to accept reality. If I look in a mirror and see a 5 foot 2 inch tall white male but I SENSE myself as a 6 foot 7 inch Black basketball star does that mean I should get surgery to make my legs longer and put coloring on my skin? I still would not be a basketball star. I have to face reality. And so should people who SENSE themselves to be some other gender than their body says they are.

Sense meaning mental identity...like you know you are Lostwanderingsoul without needing to look in the mirror. I think it's part of the frontal lobe where we form our identity mostly. That, and the frontal and temporal lobe (right, I believe) has a play in our spirituality as well.

Gender dysphoria is treated as a mental issue. Where you are going off is that the mental issue is the primary and physical is secondary. We are not our body (our flesh).

The problem with what you're saying is "reality" is not black and white. No doctor would say every person is a cookie cutter. Our health and who we are is on a gradient. Your sense is your perception of who you are.

Here's something on dissociation How disassociation occurs in the brain

I was trying to find a better source about the part of the brain that forms most of our personality, behavior, and sense of self. Our individuality. Frontal lobe is part of it.

I can't really compare it to baseball, but what you're saying is something different than what they are saying.

If I said "I am a male" and I know I am not, you'd have a point. I would be lying.
If I said "I cannot identify with my body" and I know this is not true, I would be lying.

Because I know I am not a male not just because of my chromosomes and not because of my genitalia. I feel comfortable and identify "with" my body-my stomach. my breasts. and so forth. I'm not a female because of what I don't have. I'm a female because I identify with how I was born. I wouldn't know what it would be like to be a male no matter how hard I can lie and try to imagine it. I just don't know.

Why?

It's not because I am lying. My brain structure and identity (which is neurological) doesn't align with a male's brain, so I would not instinctively (not by choice) think I am male. On the other hand, there are people who know since they were kids their bodies weren't theirs. In other words, their brain structure did not align with how they were born. How people express it "I am a female" or "I am transgender" or whatever is besides the point. The Fact remains this exists and the best you can get it is actually listening to people who experience this.

Your bias is limiting you from other people's experiences. They tell you they see red and you tell them in reality they see blue or they are mentally disturbed (my words), there's a problem.
 
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ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
First, I do not trust everytghing on Wikipedia. Second. Maybe it is not one in a billion but some high schools have a dozen or more students who say they are some other gender. True medical situations are not that common. They are using this as a way to get attention or rebel against society. Just say you are a guy who likes womens clothes or a gal who likes mens clothes. Don't put your body through hormones and surgery to try to be something you are not.
I am not someone with naturally small breasts but I sure as heck didn't let that stop me from having major surgery to stop the physical and mental suffering from being super stacked.

I also am someone with naturally small amounts of estrogen and high amounts of testosterone. So I take hormones because otherwise I'd be a bearded lady which isn't something I wanted to be.

I don't care what's 'natural' I care what's healthy for me, and the two don't always coincide.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
I am not someone with naturally small breasts but I sure as heck didn't let that stop me from having major surgery to stop the physical and mental suffering from being super stacked.

I also am someone with naturally small amounts of estrogen and high amounts of testosterone. So I take hormones because otherwise I'd be a bearded lady which isn't something I wanted to be.

I don't care what's 'natural' I care what's healthy for me, and the two don't always coincide.
I can only say that if you were born with breasts and a vagina then you are a female. You can be a female who removed breast tissue but you cannot be a male. A white man who pours paint on his body does not become a black man. You can change your appearance but not what nature made you.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I can only say that if you were born with breasts and a vagina then you are a female. You can be a female who removed breast tissue but you cannot be a male. A white man who pours paint on his body does not become a black man. You can change your appearance but not what nature made you.
You realize that not everyone with breasts and a vagina have xx chromosomes right? Chromosomal switching is not rare and there are more intersex people than there are people with natural red hair and green eyes. Sex is a spectrum, not a binary.

But it's moot because gender =/= sex.

We don't gonad or chromosomes check the people in our lives we call women or men.
wall-e-eve-pixar.jpg

These two characters are Wall-E and Eve from Pixar's Wall-E. Despite the fact that robots have neither chromosomes or gonads we have no problem calling Eve 'she' and Wall-E 'he.' Which both the movies and merchandising do.

Gender and gender pronouns are not about what's between your legs, but what's between your ears. It's a preformative social construct, unlike being black.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I can only say that if you were born with breasts and a vagina then you are a female. You can be a female who removed breast tissue but you cannot be a male. A white man who pours paint on his body does not become a black man. You can change your appearance but not what nature made you.

But your brain structure, neurology, and psychology determines who you are and how you see yourself (basic psychology and neurology). Chromosomes and genitalia only defines your genes and sex but doesn't determine your brain structure and your psychology.

Most people don't define who they are by their body. Anyone can figuratively have surgery to change their body but it wouldn't make sense if they identify with the body they are manipulating. If anything, it would make them worse.

However, if the minority of those people have different brain structure that doesn't match how they are born, than having surgery would have the opposite affect and make them better.

Whether it's bad or good are ethical opinions. Whether it's good for a person's physical and mental health is the key here. We have surgeries for many reasons and they are all for the health and well-being of the patients involved. Doctors are bound by medical ethics and that is of which to help others in their physical and mental well-being. Gender dysphoria isn't an exception.
 
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