Having no gender vs. having more than one

[lostwanderingsoul]

But your brain structure, neurology, and psychology determines who you are and how you see yourself (basic psychology and neurology). Chromosomes and genitalia only defines your genes and sex but doesn't determine your brain structure and your psychology.

Most people don't define who they are by their body. Anyone can figuratively have surgery to change their body but it wouldn't make sense if they identify with the body they are manipulating. If anything, it would make them worse.

However, if the minority of those people have different brain structure that doesn't match how they are born, than having surgery would have the opposite affect and make them better.

Whether it's bad or good are ethical opinions. Whether it's good for a person's physical and mental health is the key here. We have surgeries for many reasons and they are all for the health and well-being of the patients involved. Doctors are bound by medical ethics and that is of which to help others in their physical and mental well-being. Gender dysphoria isn't an exception.

Just tell me this. If a white person identifies himself as a black person and pours paint on himself, does that make him a blavk person? If an American has surgery on his eyes to make them slant like a Chinese person does that make him Chinese? Many people are not happy with their bodies and do many things to change. But those changes only change the appearance of the person, bot the way the person was born.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Well, at least not yet anyway...
But things are looking to start heading in that direction:

Florida GOP want to check out teenage genitals.​

Do you really think a 250 pound man should compete in sports with 120 pound women because he identifies himself as female?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Do you really think a 250 pound man should compete in sports with 120 pound women because he identifies himself as female?

Do you really think a 250lb man should compete with a 120lb man? Weight divisions exist, you know.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Just tell me this. If a white person identifies himself as a black person and pours paint on himself, does that make him a blavk person?

If an American has surgery on his eyes to make them slant like a Chinese person does that make him Chinese? Many people are not happy with their bodies and do many things to change. But those changes only change the appearance of the person, bot the way the person was born.

No. I think I wrote to much for you to get it. I'll number it. What you're saying has no comparison to the medical aspect of this. Number for clarity.

1. Say its normal for all men to have flat chest, but John Doe was born with breasts

2. Since all men have flat chests, John ideally should feel the same as a male. He does not. Who he is (a male) does not match what he is (someone with breasts).

3. John may have this dissociation so bad he gets into depression and near commit suicide. He has body dysphoria.

4. He could:

a. live with his depression and no like his body
b. listen to what other people tell him that he isn't seeing reality
c. have surgery so he will not have breasts because he knows that's not part of a male's body
d. As a result, he is happy and well-adjusted. The dysphoria is near to gone.

What you're saying is different.

Just tell me this. If a white person identifies himself as a black person and pours paint on himself, does that make him a black person?

No. If to try to compare the analogy, it's like a white person born with dark skin. She's been dark skinned all her life. People call her black. Then she gets a DNA test and found out she's white and for whatever reason besides pigmentation. From the outside, yeah, it would be odd to see a black looking person identify as white. However, if that's what she is, how she expresses it is not near the point of who she is despite the color other people see.

If an American has surgery on his eyes to make them slant like a Chinese person does that make him Chinese? Many people are not happy with their bodies and do many things to change. But those changes only change the appearance of the person, bot the way the person was born

Let me try. If someone was actually Chinese but they looked white and he changed his eyes to identify with the characteristics of his nationality as a Chinese person, that would be a better comparison. Should he stay looking white or should he adapt to who he is without being destressed that his skin color doesn't match his origin?

The problem you have, though, is assuming because he looks white, he should act white-and thereby, changing his eyes to match the characteristics of his race would be because either he has a mental disorder or because he wants to pretend he is someone he is not.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Just tell me this. If a white person identifies himself as a black person and pours paint on himself, does that make him a blavk person? If an American has surgery on his eyes to make them slant like a Chinese person does that make him Chinese?

Show me scientific evidence that you can have a biological foundation for being "trans race", and I'll accept it as a legit issue. It's the same as when people try to use those who identify as animals and dragons and silly crap like that to insult trans people. The difference is that there's medical and scientific evidence that transsexualism is a medical disorder, as there are for other congenital sex disorders.

And it's not anything new, either. People have been medically transitioning with hormones and surgeries under the guidance of doctors since the 1930s (both FTMs and MTFs). Most of them just anonymously lived their lives. There were trans women who were in Hollywood movies decades ago and models who no one knew were trans until they said they were.

It's only now (late 2000s to now) that it's become some big issue. No one cared about it before. And to be honest, I blame the freakshows and gender activists for bringing all this negative attention to us. I miss when people didn't care much.

 

[McBell]

Do you really think a 250 pound man should compete in sports with 120 pound women because he identifies himself as female?

Do you really think that inspecting teenage genitals is the best way to prevent a situation that does not exist outside your imaginary scenario that appears to be defending the idea of teen genital inspections?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

No. I think I wrote to much for you to get it. I'll number it. What you're saying has no comparison to the medical aspect of this. Number for clarity.

1. Say its normal for all men to have flat chest, but John Doe was born with breasts

2. Since all men have flat chests, John ideally should feel the same as a male. He does not. Who he is (a male) does not match what he is (someone with breasts).

3. John may have this dissociation so bad he gets into depression and near commit suicide. He has body dysphoria.

4. He could:

a. live with his depression and no like his body
b. listen to what other people tell him that he isn't seeing reality
c. have surgery so he will not have breasts because he knows that's not part of a male's body
d. As a result, he is happy and well-adjusted. The dysphoria is near to gone.

What you're saying is different.



No. If to try to compare the analogy, it's like a white person born with dark skin. She's been dark skinned all her life. People call her black. Then she gets a DNA test and found out she's white and for whatever reason besides pigmentation. From the outside, yeah, it would be odd to see a black looking person identify as white. However, if that's what she is, how she expresses it is not near the point of who she is despite the color other people see.



Let me try. If someone was actually Chinese but they looked white and he changed his eyes to identify with the characteristics of his nationality as a Chinese person, that would be a better comparison. Should he stay looking white or should he adapt to who he is without being destressed that his skin color doesn't match his origin?

The problem you have, though, is assuming because he looks white, he should act white-and thereby, changing his eyes to match the characteristics of his race would be because either he has a mental disorder or because he wants to pretend he is someone he is not.

You say a person with dark skin has DNA testing that shows she is white. She might or might not want to do something about her skin color. But a person with breasts and a vagina does not need DNA testing to show that she is female. And changing her body will not make her a male. That is the point everyone is overlooking. If she wants to says she is a female who identifies as a male, that is one thing. But when she says she IS a male, it just is not true. I really like your last line "either she has a mental disorder or she is pretending to be something she is not". A woman who has her breasts removed is not a male. Ask the thousands of women who had breast cancer and had their breasts removed. They did not become males.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You say a person with dark skin has DNA testing that shows she is white. She might or might not want to do something about her skin color. But a person with breasts and a vagina does not need DNA testing to show that she is female. And changing her body will not make her a male. That is the point everyone is overlooking. If she wants to says she is a female who identifies as a male, that is one thing. But when she says she IS a male, it just is not true. I really like your last line "either she has a mental disorder or she is pretending to be something she is not". A woman who has her breasts removed is not a male. Ask the thousands of women who had breast cancer and had their breasts removed. They did not become males.

A better example would be the breasts one.

But when she says she IS a male, it just is not true. I really like your last line "either she has a mental disorder or she is pretending to be something she is not".

If you're reading this in context to what I'm saying, thank you. If you're reading it isolated, no. We're not on the same page. Transgender people do not have a mental disorder because of gender dysphoria (they're not crazy because of it) and they are not pretending (that would be odd a child in a christian environment, straight non-transgender parents, with no knowledge of the outside world all of the sudden pretend to be someone he's not?).

I can do this better with the male-breast scenario. I'm not familiar with DNA and pigmentation enough to compare.

1. Pretend all men naturally are supposed to have flat chests
2. One man (Joe) is born with breasts because of high estragon
3. Because all men naturally have flat chest, he feels a phantom sense (like an amputated leg example) that he is supposed to have a flat chest as all other men do. Yet he does not.

4. The problem is in this scenario only women have breasts not men. So people assume he should act like a female because he looks like one

So Joe can either

5. Live with knowing he is a man but have breasts and looks like a woman or

6. To relieve his anxiety and depression have surgery to take off his breast and live as he has always been, a man with a flat chest.

He has always been a man ever since he was born But people are telling him he should be a girl "because he has breasts" and nothing more. They are looking at his outside but not taking into consideration who he is as a male from the inside-from the mind/neurological standpoint. It's by definition ignorance because not all people are medical professionals and/or their religious views blind them to a lot of neurological facts that are taboo to their said culture.

Okay. Compare this to a fact scenario.

1. All men and women are male/female because of their chromones "and" brain structure. (I gave links about male and female brain structure differences). Their genitalia "alone" does not make them male or female.

2. One man, Joe, was born with female brain structure even though he has male genitalia and chromosomes. He is a male biologically and by genetics.

3. However --medically-- not religiously or ethically his brain structure does not correlate to his biology (his genitalia) and his genetics (chromosomes). There's a conflict.

4. The majority of men and women are
a. born with their appropriate sex.
b. born with the appropriate brain structure to their sex and
c. identify with their body both gender and sex.

However, not all people fit this formula.

5. The problem is Joe has the appropriate sex and genetics but he does not have the same brain structure that correlates to his sex and genetics. The brain structure he has is of a female not a male.

So, biologically, he is a male and neurologically and psychologically he is female

6. He can either live his whole life acting as others assuming that his biology and genetics define who he is mentally

or

7. He can relieve that feeling of dysphoria (discomfort) and dissociation by having surgery to remove his sex. He can't change his genetics, true; but from a neurological and psychological point of view, we are not our genetics. Our genetics shape our physical characteristics (eye color and so forth) but they don't define our identity.

What you're saying is that because Joe has male genetics and male sex he is male. Your view does not take brain structure and psychology into consideration.

Doctors: psychologists, neurologists, endocrinologists, and transgender people know that the brain structure is involved when deciding who is male or female.

There is no ethics and religious views involved with this. It's strictly medical.

8.
You cannot pretend you have a female or male brain structure. You have one or the other. You can't change your chromosomes but there are genetic disorders to where some people do not have strict XX and XY chromosomes.

But you can have surgery to change your sex and influence your male and female hormones. We do this in other illnesses for medical reasons, why is gender dysphoria (describe above) any different?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@lostwanderingsoul

On the doctor note. Are you saying psychiatrist, psychologist, neurologist, endocrinologist, and their transgender patients as well as research studies on this topic of gender and sex are wrong and that these doctors are just going along with transgender patients who the latter are pretending to be one sex and not the other?

Ethics, culture, and religion are irrelevant in this. Many christian beliefs are not aligned with medical science. That doesn't mean the latter is wrong, it just means cultural taboos are treated as wrong and not just different.

If you have some time, here is some info.

Sex differences in brain anatomy Researchers have observed sex differences in the volume of certain brain regions in animals. Some studies suggest these anatomical differences are largely due to the effects of sex hormones on brain development.

Sexing the brain: the science and pseudoscience of sex differences - PubMed
Researcher explores links between transgender brain and gender identity

You can disagree with how transgender people express their experiences but the condition and research on it still exist and experienced by many people.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

@lostwanderingsoul

On the doctor note. Are you saying psychiatrist, psychologist, neurologist, endocrinologist, and their transgender patients as well as research studies on this topic of gender and sex are wrong and that these doctors are just going along with transgender patients who the latter are pretending to be one sex and not the other?

Ethics, culture, and religion are irrelevant in this. Many christian beliefs are not aligned with medical science. That doesn't mean the latter is wrong, it just means cultural taboos are treated as wrong and not just different.

If you have some time, here is some info.

Sex differences in brain anatomy Researchers have observed sex differences in the volume of certain brain regions in animals. Some studies suggest these anatomical differences are largely due to the effects of sex hormones on brain development.

Sexing the brain: the science and pseudoscience of sex differences - PubMed
Researcher explores links between transgender brain and gender identity

You can disagree with how transgender people express their experiences but the condition and research on it still exist and experienced by many people.

I have no doubt that a condition exists that affects a number of people. I will end by saying that you keep bringing up "male" or "female" brain differences. This may be completely true. And maybe that means it is a brain problem and not a body problem. The person who looks in a mirror and sees breasts but says "I am a male and should not have breasts" perhaps should do something to change the brain instead of the body. I am 100% in favor of giving them any help, instruction, training, and even medication to help them accept what they really are. And we can see the body of a female but cannot see the brain of a male.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have no doubt that a condition exists that affects a number of people. I will end by saying that you keep bringing up "male" or "female" brain differences. This may be completely true. And maybe that means it is a brain problem and not a body problem. The person who looks in a mirror and sees breasts but says "I am a male and should not have breasts" perhaps should do something to change the brain instead of the body. I am 100% in favor of giving them any help, instruction, training, and even medication to help them accept what they really are. And we can see the body of a female but cannot see the brain of a male.

You're missing a big point.

They are not saying "I am male and I want to be a female"
They're not pretending to be female if they are biologically and genetically male
They don't have a mental health condition that makes them think they are female despite they are male biologically and genetically

They agree with you biologically and genetically.

Where you guys part is you're not taking into consideration that the brain is part of what forms one's gender not just chromosomes and sex. Once you put the brain structure in your scenario, then "I was born male and I am a female" would make more sense. If you take it out, than that's the problem.

Your opinion in itself isn't the problem. You're missing out on some facts that makes your opinion miseducated (not being rude).

You'd literally have to be interested in understanding the brain not just referring to chromosomes and sex.

That's if you want to learn something new about the topic?

You don't have to change your ethics, but I would hope your ethics be formed on something you understand first-in this case, medically and by their experiences.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I have no doubt that a condition exists that affects a number of people. I will end by saying that you keep bringing up "male" or "female" brain differences. This may be completely true. And maybe that means it is a brain problem and not a body problem. The person who looks in a mirror and sees breasts but says "I am a male and should not have breasts" perhaps should do something to change the brain instead of the body. I am 100% in favor of giving them any help, instruction, training, and even medication to help them accept what they really are. And we can see the body of a female but cannot see the brain of a male.

You can't change the brain like that. You're talking about some far-out science fiction stuff.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

You can't change the brain like that. You're talking about some far-out science fiction stuff.

The far out science fiction stuff is in the story you take your name from, Frankenstein. Changing body parts to make something that was not there before is the scary stuff. Brains can be changed with education, counseling, medicine and more.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The far out science fiction stuff is in the story you take your name from, Frankenstein. Changing body parts to make something that was not there before is the scary stuff. Brains can be changed with education, counseling, medicine and more.

No, they can't. You can't change someone's sexual identity. We tried that before. It's just torture.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The far out science fiction stuff is in the story you take your name from, Frankenstein. Changing body parts to make something that was not there before is the scary stuff. Brains can be changed with education, counseling, medicine and more.

You haven't understood it yet?

What you're saying is totally different than what they are saying. Medically, ethically, and educationally different.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

May I try to answer these comments in one to three sentences each to see if you get the pattern?

But when he says he is a girl, he is wrong. He is just a little boy who likes to play with dolls and wear lipstick and a dress.

When John says he is a female, he is not saying/believes he changes his chromosomes and organs. He knows he is biologically a male. He isn't saying he can change that nor can he.

"Gender is a socially derived classification construct" is a meaningless pile of garbage.

Gender means your brain structure (the grey matter in your brain for instance), your culture (whether you wear a dress or pants), and your association with your body (you know who you are without looking in the mirror), all comprises gender.

It's not an opinion but a medical and psychological fact.

He may think and act and play like a girl but he is not a girl.

No one saying that because he plays and acts like a girl (gender roles) that he believes he is a girl (biologically). So, this is irrelevant.

I bet none of these male actors ever claimed he actually WAS a female and tried to use the female bathroom. I have no problem with boys or men PLAYING like females but when they start saying they ARE females someone needs to have the guts to tell them they are wrong.

No transgender person will say they are the opposite sex biologically and genetically. So, you're assuming they are ignorant just because they say they are the opposite sex.

It probably became a "real medical condition" because doctors decided they could make money by treating it.

No. They have MRI scans that study male and female brain structure differences and how in rare cases the brain structure (grey matter in the brain) does not always align with the genetics and biology of the person.

This is a medical fact. Many people thought depression wasn't a real illness and insurances didn't pay for it at one time like they do physical conditions. Now they do.

They are not pretending, they are sick. But the sickness is not that they need to change their gender but that they think they need to change it. Mental illness not physical. And not illness that requires hormones and surgery.

Diseases & Conditions
There are many illnesses that have to do with hormones.

46, XY disorders of sexual development | Genetic and Rare Diseases Information Center (GARD) – an NCATS Program Here is something about hormone replacement therapy for rare diseases.

If a man tells you they are a woman (as a transgender person) they are not talking about their genetics and biology. You're conflating that and the male and female brain.

Medical fact. 99.9999% of humans have either 1 X chromosome and 1 Y chromosome or 2 X chromosomes. Are there exceptions? Maybe one in a billion. Those with 2 X's are called females and those with 1 X and 1 Y are called males. A male may take hormones are surgically remove parts of his body but nothing can change his chromosomes. He is still a male. He can wear a dress and lipstick and high heels. He is still a male. Now if he tells people he is a male who takes hormomes and had surgery and wears a dress, I have no problem with that. But when he tells people he is a female, that is the problem . If he was born with 1 X and 1 Y chromosome, he will always be a male. Nothing can change that and that is the medical reality. We will not deal with the one in a billion that have a true medical problem.

You're still mixing this up.

No one is saying they can change their male or female genetics.
They know they are biologically and genetically male or female

All of this is irrelevant because you are not taking into consideration the male and female brain. Males and females differ in specific brain structures

I think you have missed the point. I have said nothing about "identifying". If a man wants to say he "feels like" a woman or "identifies" with women, that is one thing. But when a man says he IS awoman, that is different.A little boy can grow up felling or identifying like a woman but he CANNOT grow up to BE a woman. That is the lie. A man with no sex organ may act and feel like a woman but he is NOT a woman.

No transgender person will say he or she can change genetically to a male or female. They know they are biologically male or female.

When they say "I am a female" as a biological male being, they are going by their brain structure (since they were kids) NOT by their sex and genetics.

God only made two. Male and female. Anything else is a product of man's ungodly mind.

God just made people.

You're putting god in a box. Biblical authors knew nothing about this stuff.

 

[SomeRandom]

OK Thank you for that. Here is how I see things. My opinion. You either have 2 X chromosomes or 1 X and 1 Y. Matbe one person in a billion has a true medical condition where this is not true. I do not think that is you. If you have 1 X and one Y chromosome, you are a male. If you have 2 X's you are female. You can take hormones or have surgery but you cannot change that. If you are a male and you like to wear dresses and high heals, I have no problem with that. Or if you are female and wear "men's" clothing, I have no problem with that. My problem is that if you are male and tell people you are female, that is not true. You are a male who likes to wear female clothes and do female things. Same thing goes if you are female and tell people you are male. Nothing you can do will change your chromosomes and you are only lying to yourself and others if you tell them you are something you are not. I would have no problem being a friend to you if you were honest about yourself. I have had some contact with men who liked other men but they did not pretend to be women. I had no problem being around them. It is pretending to be something you are not that is the problem for me.

I can only say that if you were born with breasts and a vagina then you are a female. You can be a female who removed breast tissue but you cannot be a male. A white man who pours paint on his body does not become a black man. You can change your appearance but not what nature made you.

Ahh so a person born with XY Gonadal Dysgenesis is what exactly? They were born with XY chromosomes. But they are otherwise externally female. Except for external gonads that are typically removed at birth to avoid them interfering with the onset of puberty.
Swyer syndrome: MedlinePlus Genetics
Fun fact it is scientifically impossible for a society of humans to be have every single person be born 100% male and 100% female. I remember learning that out of a textbook in like grade 10 biology class a decade ago. More maybe. Who are your sources, mate? I mean no offence but the information you’re posting seems woefully out of date

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Ahh so a person born with XY Gonadal Dysgenesis is what exactly? They were born with XY chromosomes. But they are otherwise externally female. Except for external gonads that are typically removed at birth to avoid them interfering with the onset of puberty.
Swyer syndrome: MedlinePlus Genetics
Fun fact it is scientifically impossible for a society of humans to be have every single person be born 100% male and 100% female. I remember learning that out of a textbook in like grade 10 biology class a decade ago. More maybe. Who are your sources, mate? I mean no offence but the information you’re posting seems woefully out of date

I don't think he will get it medially speaking.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Ahh so a person born with XY Gonadal Dysgenesis is what exactly? They were born with XY chromosomes. But they are otherwise externally female. Except for external gonads that are typically removed at birth to avoid them interfering with the onset of puberty.
Swyer syndrome: MedlinePlus Genetics
Fun fact it is scientifically impossible for a society of humans to be have every single person be born 100% male and 100% female. I remember learning that out of a textbook in like grade 10 biology class a decade ago. More maybe. Who are your sources, mate? I mean no offence but the information you’re posting seems woefully out of date

I think there is a very big difference between that VERY rare individual who is seen at birth to have a problem and that individual who wakes up one morning and sees breasts and says "I am a male so I must remove those". The brain of a bank robber says it is perfect;y fine for me to rob banks, the brain of a killer says it is perfectly fine for me to kill people and the brain of someone born female but wants to be male says it is perfectly fine for me to cut up my body to make it match what I want it to be. My opinion is that all three are wrong. All three have a brain problem that needs to be addressed and corrected.

 

[Kooky]

I think there is a very big difference between that VERY rare individual who is seen at birth to have a problem and that individual who wakes up one morning and sees breasts and says "I am a male so I must remove those". The brain of a bank robber says it is perfect;y fine for me to rob banks, the brain of a killer says it is perfectly fine for me to kill people and the brain of someone born female but wants to be male says it is perfectly fine for me to cut up my body to make it match what I want it to be. My opinion is that all three are wrong. All three have a brain problem that needs to be addressed and corrected.

Why do you assume that somebody who does not conform to your personal expectations of gender "has a problem"?


By the way, American society already says it is perfectly fine for ordinary men to kill people, so long as they are acting under the correct circumstances - self defense, being a soldier in a war zone, being a policeman confronted with a black guy who is no angel.

Would you say that a man killing a person in self defense has "a brain problem" if they accept their deed as justified?