Hamas and Hospitals… Exposed

[oldbadger]

The israelis disclosed where and when they would begin their air assault on Gaza. The gave the Gazans safe corridors of travel to flee from these areas and 1.8 million left. If the assault is targeted in the north, the Gazans flee to the south. Ideally the surrounding Arab nations would accept them, but, since the terrorists are mixed with the population, naturally, they're going to prohibit that.

The death toll of civilians rises.
They are dying everywhere in Gaza.
The Israeli leadership is killing them in their homeland, and isn't listening to the appeals of UN, charities or the people themselves.

The Gazans chose leaders who prioritize death, murder, and rape instead of water, food, power, etc ... They wanted independence, they made their choice. They chose war ........

No they didn't. There has not been any election in well over a decade.

If you think that every Gazan civilian is a terrorist then that is very very sad.

 

[justaguy313]

Netanyahu propped and financed Hamas, that's all over the Israeli press

When you want to win, finance the both sides of the conflict

The End

 

[Revoltingest]

Here is a great example of fault:

Not watching videos.
Let's start with something in your own words.
You already offered graffiti. Anything else?

 

[Kenny]

Not watching videos.
Let's start with something in your own words.
You already offered graffiti. Anything else?

Yes, ignoring, from the proverbial horses mouth, exactly what Hamas says and the fact that they really don’t care about Palestinians and placing Palestinians in harms way so that you can blame Israel… well… it’s just better not to watch those videos.

 

[metis]

Yes, ignoring, from the proverbial horses mouth, exactly what Hamas says and the fact that they really don’t care about Palestinians and placing Palestinians in harms way so that you can blame Israel… well… it’s just better not to watch those videos.

Hamas was elected and elections have consequences. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and terrorist organizations have consequences. Massacring over 1000 innocent civilians has consequences. Using civilians as human shields has consequences. Using hospitals to store weapons has consequences. War has consequences, especially for civilians.

I don't support everything Israel is doing, and I hope a lengthier cease fire is agreed to soon, but I have to feel that Hamas likely wouldn't abide by any agreement.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, ignoring, from the proverbial horses mouth....

I'm waiting for you to post something in your
own words supported buy links to written
articles when useful.
Not watching videos (for reasons that don't
concern you).

 

[Kenny]

Hamas was elected and elections have consequences. Hamas is a terrorist organization, and terrorist organizations have consequences. Massacring over 1000 innocent civilians has consequences. Using civilians as human shields has consequences. Using hospitals to store weapons has consequences. War has consequences, especially for civilians.

I don't support everything Israel is doing, and I hope a lengthier cease fire is agreed to soon, but I have to feel that Hamas likely wouldn't abide by any agreement.

That has been the history and their motto.

 

[Kenny]

I'm waiting for you to post something in your
own words supported buy links to written
articles when useful.
Not watching videos (for reasons that don't
concern you).

It all concerns me as it does you. If it doesn’t concern me, then nothing concerns you in reference to the defense of Israel.

 

[dybmh]

As someone who lives in Germany, I can assure you that anyone who criticises Israel's foreign policy too loudly here will most likely be branded a "Nazi" and excluded by society and politics.

Well, I'm not sure that I believe you that the metric is "volume". It could be that you're not sensitive to the type of language which is indicative of anti-jewish hatred. However, if that's true, it makes sense for a country where the jewish people were literally targetted for extermination, gathered into camps, placed in gas chambers, starved to death... to over-correct and over-compensate. That's a natural reaction. It's not indoctrination.

The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance

OK. I had a chance to do some research on this organization. They do have influence. That's true. In order to be a member of the group a member nation needs to institute standards which gaurantee that the facts about the holocaust which happened in your country with the consent and/or participation of the majority of german citizens. The majority of german citizens were eeither complicit or guilty of attempting to murder innocent jewish people, not just in their own country but in other countries as well.

It's important to ensure that individuals know the facts of this, because, there are anti-jewish bigots in the owrld who will deny it ever happened in spite of the over-whelming evidence.

It's also useful because it is an example of *actual* genocide. Not accusations of the imaginary genocide comming from anti-israel critics.

Here are pictures of what actual genocide looks like:

Spoiler

Here is what is happening right now in gaza.

Spoiler

It's a rather huge difference. Of course, what happened in germany needs to be prevented from ever happening to any other group, anywhere ever again. That's why the The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance is important.

Official wording.

That definition, produced by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance in 2016, includes among its “contemporary examples” of antisemitism “denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination”. In other words, anti-Zionism is Jew hatred. In so doing, Macron joined Germany, Britain, the United States and roughly 30 other governments.

Debunking the myth that anti-Zionism is antisemitic | Peter Beinart

The long read: All over the world, it is an alarming time to be Jewish – but conflating anti-Zionism with Jew-hatred is a tragic mistake

www.theguardian.com

I also took a look at this. I'm tagging @Samael_Khan, and @The Hammer on this reply because I see they both "thumbed-up" your post.

My friend. The "defintion" you provided above is a misquote. The author of the article you posted cropped out the qualifiers of the defintion from the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance. Essentially, they lied.

This happens all the time. I've been on this website for around 5 years. I've participated in many debates. I see this often. Anytime a "scholar" or "academic" quotes something negative about jewish people, judaism, or israel, it needs to be fact checked. I don't know for certain why this happens, but, it happens consistently. Thats why I asked @libre, what are the reasons for criticising israel. Just because a person has credentials that does not, in any way, confer inerrance. It doesn't matter how popular the opinion is, academics get things wrong about these topic frequently.

Here is their actual defintion:

Look at what is immediately under this definition. They absolutely DO NOT consider criticism equivilant with jewish-hatred.

Now let's look at the actual quote about self-determination. Please notice the example given which qualifies the statement. The author of the article you posted omitted this qualification. They omitted the actual defintion. They omitted the fact that criticism is NOT automatically anti-jewish. They are a professor of political science, but they completely misquoted the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance. It doesn't matter that they are an academic. They still got it 100% wrong.

Almost the entire article is wrong. It's a 95% straw-manning.[/spoiler]

 

[Bthoth]

Yes, ignoring, from the proverbial horses mouth, exactly what Hamas says and the fact that they really don’t care about Palestinians and placing Palestinians in harms way so that you can blame Israel… well… it’s just better not to watch those videos.

That's exactly what I see from israel. Claiming to be a jewish state which created hate for Jews all over the world.

But

 

[dybmh]

So colonizers both purchase land and take it. And this is also an aspect of the apartheid state.

In South Africa the colonizers encroached on land where the khoi and san were present. On occasion thet bought cattle from individual khoi, which was their wealth, yet most khoi did not agree with it and considered it an enfringement on khoi civilisation. Then the Dutch settlers antagonised them by emcroaching further into fertile land and blocking the khoi from letting their cattle graze there. This caused armed khoi resistence, which caused khoi defeat and the colonisers took more of their land through conquest, and justified it by saying that the khoi were evil and degenerate. This is how the colonisers bought and took khoi land and wealth destroying their civilisation.

Then again, under apartheid, the apartheid government enforced the group areas act which forced coloured and indian people out of communitied they then reserved for white people. And yes they did justify it by paying the people for their houses but it was at a lesser value. The people didnt want to go. But they had to, and were sent to areas that were lesser developed. So here the coloniser did buy the land but it wasnt just because they forced the others to sell.

When it comes to pushing people into a separate state that is supposedly self governed yet the coloniser state controls the basic resources the seperate state needs, this is exactly what the Bantustans were under apartheid. Apartheid ideology is separate development between ethnic groups or races but ultimately under the power of the dominant oppressive group. So the aim was for black people to have their own Bantustans and were able to vote in their own leaders and government. To the apartheid government this was just. Yet black people resisted, also with militant groups, even african countries got involved with the border wars, yet the apartheid government said they were evil for resisting. And they say that the Dutch were there first, that the land is their god given right, and that they didnt antagonise the lesser races.

The difference here is, the Palestinians are consistently attacking Israel. They began by attacking Israel. There was no antagonism excluding their existence. What you are describing as government sanctioned antagonism is actually setting up walls and check points to prevent weapons and terrorists from entering Israel.

There is a separate issue of settlers causing problems, but, the conclusion that this is government sanctioned ( aka apartheid ) seems to be nothing more than rumors.

It may look that way, and, perhaps there is potential for trouble. But accurately judging what's happening requires looking at details on a case by case basis. Whenever I do that, Israel's actions are justified, measured, and appropriate.

Could Israel do more regarding illegal settlement? Absolutely, IF, big IF, they were not constantly dealing with terrorism and the current war which is sapping it's domestic resources. Here in America the local law enforcement has many military reservists. In the military deployment in Israel it is much bigger problem. It makes sense that domestic settlement issues will be, and need to be secondary.

If Israel had 24-48 months of consistent peace, then it would be fair to criticize a lack of action regarding settlement issues.

 

[dybmh]

You don't know if anything he is saying is true, or if he has been threatened, tortured or made deals with them

It's clear he hasn't been tortured. There are ways to tell if he's telling the truth. Nothing in the video is consistent with someone who is under duress or fabricating a story.

 

[dybmh]

Oh, those of great faith in one's own Truth.
To mistake disagreement for ignoring one's rants bespeaks fanaticism.

No rant. It's historical fact you are ignoring.

I've heard all of this parochial apologetics before.
If one will not understand the other side, & one
blindly rationalizes the worst of one's own, then
continual war is inevitable

I noticed you did not / cannot refute anything I wrote.

I certainly understand the other side of the conflict. They are victims of propaganda. But that doesn't make them any less dangerous. Actually, it makes the more dangerous, because they resist information which does not confirm the stories they are told.

InB4: The key difference between my position and yours is, I back up my position with facts. I assimilate new information. I don't traffic in slogans and propaganda. I debunk it.

 

[dybmh]

nicely put.

==

That said, we could start another thread about Islam, because IMO that's a bad set of ideas in need of some serious reform.

I think you know my opinion of Islam. I'm friendly to it, and, I think if the Quran's teachings are implemented, it could end the war.

 

[dybmh]

That is a really odd set of claims, given that Israel
is the biggest purveyor of hate filled propaganda
to justify human rights violations of Muslims

That is imaginary nonsense. If you had proof of this you would have brought it long ago.

 

[dybmh]

The conception of history you've laid out is one where Israel has consistently tried to be peaceful and have been attacked by savages, and that is the apologist viewpoint.

Name calling by using the word "apologist" is not a valid argument.

What's needed are facts.

Edward Said’s spectre and the end of Oslo

What Edward Said predicted in the 1990s came to be. The PLO’s two-state project has failed.

www.aljazeera.com

I will happily read this, but, do you acknowledge this is an extremely biased source?

The best example is the Al-ahi hospital where Aljazeerah concluded the Israelis had attacked the hospital, but the evidence suggests Palestinians accidentally attacked their own hospital.

Has Aljazeerah corrected this rush to judgement? Have you fact checked the article? Do you have any standards for filtering out propaganda from the information you consume?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

How about the weapons, ammunitions, tunnel and video in and about the hospital...

does that help the gentlemen’s statements?

No, it doesn't. From WaPo's investigation of Israel's attack on al-Shifa, Gaza's largest hospital:

"But the evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, according to a Washington Post analysis of open-source visuals, satellite imagery and all of the publicly released IDF materials. That raises critical questions, legal and humanitarian experts say, about whether the civilian harm caused by Israel’s military operations against the hospital — encircling, besieging and ultimately raiding the facility and the tunnel beneath it — were proportionate to the assessed threat.

The Post’s analysis shows:
The rooms connected to the tunnel network discovered by IDF troops showed no immediate evidence of military use by Hamas.
None of the five hospital buildings identified by Hagari appeared to be connected to the tunnel network.
There is no evidence that the tunnels could be accessed from inside hospital wards."

https://archive.is/0T6zX

Just another example of the Israeli government lying.

 

[dybmh]

From WaPo's investigation of Israel's attack on al-Shifa, Gaza's largest hospital:

"But the evidence presented by the Israeli government falls short of showing that Hamas had been using the hospital as a command and control center, according to a Washington Post analysis of open-source visuals, satellite imagery and all of the publicly released IDF materials. That raises critical questions, legal and humanitarian experts say, about whether the civilian harm caused by Israel’s military operations against the hospital — encircling, besieging and ultimately raiding the facility and the tunnel beneath it — were proportionate to the assessed threat.

The Post’s analysis shows:
The rooms connected to the tunnel network discovered by IDF troops showed no immediate evidence of military use by Hamas.

Here is a link to actual article:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/21/al-shifa-hospital-gaza-hamas-israel/

The US defense dept has confirmed the IDF intelligence assessment. It's not just Israel making these claims.

Here is a video tour of the tunnel complex. After the hospital has been destroyed, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. There's quite a bit of evidence in this video which shows the tunnels under the hospital need to be destroyed.

Elimination of Hamas requires locating and removing all weapons caches and destroying all tunnel systems. From a distance it's easy to criticize: "they could have and should have accomplished this objective differently". That's an argument from ignorance.

And, as usual, none of this would have happened if Hamas had not attacked the way they did.

 

[Revoltingest]

No rant. It's historical fact you are ignoring.



I noticed you did not / cannot refute anything I wrote.

I certainly understand the other side of the conflict. They are victims of propaganda. But that doesn't make them any less dangerous. Actually, it makes the more dangerous, because they resist information which does not confirm the stories they are told.

InB4: The key difference between my position and yours is, I back up my position with facts. I assimilate new information. I don't traffic in slogans and propaganda. I debunk it.

You have a mix of facts, self serving
opinions, & strained rationalization.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is imaginary nonsense. If you had proof of this you would have brought it long ago.

I'd never considered offering proof.
It's obvious to all but fanatical Zionists.
And to those, there's no point because
they cannot see any side but their own.
Stalinists had their rationale for evil.
Nazis had their rationale for evil.
Maoists had their rationale for evil.
Israel has its rationale for evil.
They all operated on different values,
& false beliefs beliefs. Reason doesn't
work on them.