Hamas and Hospitals… Exposed

[dybmh]

@The Hammer ,

I think this is a good article which describes the ongoing trend of israeli attempts at peace and the violent reaction by the enemies of israel. israel cannot "stop playing the game". That is suicide. Consistently, israel eliminates those who have demonstrated their intentions by attacking innocent people and kidnapping them. The result is more attacks on innocent people by the arabs.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-israel-history-confrontation-2021-05-14/

1993 - After years of violence, the first Oslo Accord, aimed at establishing peace between Israel and the Palestinians, is signed. Hamas opposes the peace process, and seeks to derail it with bus bombings and gun attacks in Israel.

2000 - Israel and the Palestinians fail to reach a final agreement in the peace process at a summit in the United States in July 2000. Two months later, Palestinian protests over a visit by Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon to Al-Aqsa mosque compound in East Jerusalem - known to Jews as Temple Mount, because it was the site of ancient Jewish temples, and to Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary - develop into a Second Intifada.

2001-02 - Hamas carries out a series of suicide bombings in Israel, including killing 21 Israelis outside a Tel Aviv disco in June 2001, and 30 Jewish celebrants at a Passover seder dinner in Netanya in March 2022. Four months later, Hamas’s military commander Salah Shehadeh is killed in an Israeli air strike, and Israel starts a siege of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's compound in the West Bank city of Ramallah.

May 17 - Israeli missile attacks kill top Islamic Jihad commander Hussam Abu Harbeed and hit a seven-storey office building that the military said was used by Gaza's Islamist rulers Hamas. Rockets fired by the militants hit a synagogue in the Israeli town of Ashkelon and an apartment block in Ashdod.

Regarding the 2nd intifada, a conflict resulting from a jewish man praying in their religious space, a place which is legally shared, neither israeli nor palestinian...

Second Intifada - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

​

On 12 October, PA police arrested two Israeli reservists who had accidentally entered Ramallah, where in the preceding weeks a hundred Palestinians had been killed, nearly two dozen of them minors.[68] Rumours quickly spread that Israeli undercover agents were in the building, and an angry crowd of more than 1,000 Palestinians gathered in front of the station calling for their death. Both soldiers were beaten, stabbed, and disembowelled, and one body was set on fire. An Italian television crew captured the killings on video and then broadcast the tape internationally.​

​

There it is again. The rumors. These people are so easily manipulated by rumors. That's a sign and a symptom of prejudice. It only takes a tiny whisper with zero evidence and the bigot nods their head takes out their knife and disembowls the innocent. This is not the only story like this.

And we can see it playing out right here, right now, on RF. People believe the rumors. They ignore the facts. They think they can somehow make conclusions about military necessity and objectives less than a week after an event has occured from thousands of miles away.

 

[dybmh]

Official wording.

What does that mean?

That definition, produced by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance in 2016, includes among its “contemporary examples” of antisemitism “denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination”. In other words, anti-Zionism is Jew hatred. In so doing, Macron joined Germany, Britain, the United States and roughly 30 other governments.

That is not indoctrination. Do you know what that word means? In order for it to be indoctriination, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance needs to publish text books, teach in pre-schools, take control of the school boards. It's a form of re-programming an individual.

In order for this to wide-parts of the world, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, would need to assert itself in a very strong manner into the education systems all over the world.

Do you think this is happening?

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance needs to publish text books, teach in pre-schools, take control of the school boards.

The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance are countries. Do you think that schools are not advised to follow their country's doctrine?

 

[dybmh]

The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance are countries. Do you think that schools are not advised to follow their country's doctrine?

Well, first, advising is not indoctrination. Second if the countries were *actually* indoctrinating their children then they are failing miserably. Criticizing Israel is popular and trendy right now all across the world. Even in Israel, israeli's are criticizing Israel. Third, I think you are greatly exaggerating the influence of this one specific group. Fourth, schools, at least in America, are not run in a way that you are describing. Textbooks and curriculum is established locally by school boards. Local teachers would be on strike here if the children were being indoctrinated discouraging rising up and challenging tyranny.

I'll research it on my own and report back. I would appreciate if you would share what you know about it as well.

Thank you,

 

[беспокойный путешественни]

Third, I think you are greatly exaggerating the influence of this one specific group.

As someone who lives in Germany, I can assure you that anyone who criticises Israel's foreign policy too loudly here will most likely be branded a "Nazi" and excluded by society and politics.

 

[Revoltingest]

Of course. It's actions are justified, measured, and appropriate.

As I've written before, and you have ignored:

Oh, those of great faith in one's own Truth.
To mistake disagreement for ignoring one's rants bespeaks fanaticism.

1. Originally the law of the land was "might=right". Prior to WW1 the Ottoman empire (Arabs) controlled the region.
2. The Ottoman's chose the losing side of WW1 and evaporated.
3. The league of nations which was a result of the allied victory in WW1 established mandatory palestine which included an intention for a jewish refuge in their ancestral homeland
4. Jewish people began buying property in mandatory palestine and moving there in increased numbers
5. the Arabs attacked them repeatedly very shortly after starting around 1920.
6. the Arabs have not stopped attacking the jewish people in israel ever since
7. israel has won every conflict
8. ending the conflicts have involed armistice agreements where the arabs have given up land. The arabs negotiated for peace using land. israel has taken that terrirtory in order to establish defensible borders for itself.
9. israel has returned much of that territory negotiating for peace with its neighbors. Peace in land which was legally purchased.
10. lacking defensible borders, a buffer, between themselves and those who will not cease sending rockets, suicide bombers and soldiers to attack innocent civilians, israel has no other choice but to setup up walls and check points into and out of their country. Their country which was established as a result of the ottaman empire collapse and the world community attempting to end "might=right" politics.
11. these walls and check-points are neceessary and justified, but, the arabs who are fighting don't know it. they don't know that they're land was not stolen.

Israel is not responsible for the lies and misunderstanding of the gazans who think their land was stolen. The ones who are responsible are the ones who perpetuate the lies, spread the rumors, and lay out fertile soil for the propaganda. If the arabs would stop sending rockets, suicide bombers, and soldiers into israel, then the "oppression" would cease.

None of this would be happening if the arabs had not attacked jewish people for buying land land legally and settling in it.

This conflict can end, if the arabs choose to end it. They are consenting to their own oppression.

I've heard all of this parochial apologetics before.
If one will not understand the other side, & one
blindly rationalizes the worst of one's own, then
continual war is inevitable.

 

[Firenze]

It needs to be considered from a military perspective.

There is no other way to clear Gaza of weapons and tunnels without compelling the occupants, both the citizens and the terrorists hiding among them, to vacate the area.

They must leave. Gaza has fallen to the worst of the worst sort of terrorists. These people are training a small army who seek out innocent victims to murder, first by raping them, then by disemboweling them. The Gazans elected them, and allowed them to fester. They knew who they were and did not rise up against them. That means Israel must clear the area for good of everyone in the region.

So, Israel tells the people, "leave". 1.8 million left. If the ones who chose to stay, or, were unable to leave interfere with clearing the area, postpone clearing the area, then the next time this happens no one will leave.

What happens then?

Israel either bombs the area anyway, ignoring that the citizens didn't leave, or, they go in with ground troops. When they do that the citizens will attack. When the citizens attack they will get slaughtered by the the Israeli military.

Do you understand now? A ground invasion lacking the air assault would wipe out the Gazans. Compelling them to leave while the area is cleared of munitions, ordinance, and tunnels saved 1.8 million lives. But it only works if the Gazans know, with 100% certainty, "the bombs are coming, we must leave."

There is no other way. The general public are not considering this from a military perspective. Israel is absolutely doing the right thing by clearing Gaza in the manner it is doing. Any other way produces more death of innocent Gazans who will fight against the invaders regardless of whether it is in their best interests or not.

Make sense?

You're pretending this is only a military exercise. But Israel has been slowly killing Palestinians and treating them like cockroaches for decades now - and they piously wring their hands because atrocities are committed by the oppressed? That's pretty lazy thinking. Israel is given land that had been occupied by Palestinians for 1000 years, kicks them out of their homes - and then whines "Gee, why do they hate us?" There is another way. Stop the inexorable process of slowly eliminating Palestinians - and drop this ridiculous pretense that you have every right to the land because some bronze age book by ignorant, bigoted goat herders says a god gave it to you. Instead, try treating the Palestinians like the fellow Semites they are with equal right to the land you control only by international fete.

 

[The Hammer]

@The Hammer ,

I think this is a good article which describes the ongoing trend of israeli attempts at peace and the violent reaction by the enemies of israel. israel cannot "stop playing the game". That is suicide. Consistently, israel eliminates those who have demonstrated their intentions by attacking innocent people and kidnapping them. The result is more attacks on innocent people by the arabs.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-israel-history-confrontation-2021-05-14/

1993 - After years of violence, the first Oslo Accord, aimed at establishing peace between Israel and the Palestinians, is signed. Hamas opposes the peace process, and seeks to derail it with bus bombings and gun attacks in Israel.

2000 - Israel and the Palestinians fail to reach a final agreement in the peace process at a summit in the United States in July 2000. Two months later, Palestinian protests over a visit by Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon to Al-Aqsa mosque compound in East Jerusalem - known to Jews as Temple Mount, because it was the site of ancient Jewish temples, and to Muslims as the Noble Sanctuary - develop into a Second Intifada.

2001-02 - Hamas carries out a series of suicide bombings in Israel, including killing 21 Israelis outside a Tel Aviv disco in June 2001, and 30 Jewish celebrants at a Passover seder dinner in Netanya in March 2022. Four months later, Hamas’s military commander Salah Shehadeh is killed in an Israeli air strike, and Israel starts a siege of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's compound in the West Bank city of Ramallah.

May 17 - Israeli missile attacks kill top Islamic Jihad commander Hussam Abu Harbeed and hit a seven-storey office building that the military said was used by Gaza's Islamist rulers Hamas. Rockets fired by the militants hit a synagogue in the Israeli town of Ashkelon and an apartment block in Ashdod.

Regarding the 2nd intifada, a conflict resulting from a jewish man praying in their religious space, a place which is legally shared, neither israeli nor palestinian...

View attachment 86019

Second Intifada - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

​

On 12 October, PA police arrested two Israeli reservists who had accidentally entered Ramallah, where in the preceding weeks a hundred Palestinians had been killed, nearly two dozen of them minors.[68] Rumours quickly spread that Israeli undercover agents were in the building, and an angry crowd of more than 1,000 Palestinians gathered in front of the station calling for their death. Both soldiers were beaten, stabbed, and disembowelled, and one body was set on fire. An Italian television crew captured the killings on video and then broadcast the tape internationally.​

​

There it is again. The rumors. These people are so easily manipulated by rumors. That's a sign and a symptom of prejudice. It only takes a tiny whisper with zero evidence and the bigot nods their head takes out their knife and disembowls the innocent. This is not the only story like this.

And we can see it playing out right here, right now, on RF. People believe the rumors. They ignore the facts. They think they can somehow make conclusions about military necessity and objectives less than a week after an event has occured from thousands of miles away.

I know the history my opinion is not changing.

 

[The Hammer]

The problem with this logic is that israel is trying to "stop playing the game". But the arabs continue to attack. If the arabs stop playing, then, the war ends. If israel stops playing they die.

You are asking the jewish people in israel to commit suicide. If israel "stops playing" then the worst of worst take over in the region, and, the arab populace is either powerless to stop it, or, maybe that's what want. Maybe they want a "mighty" power to dominate the region, as long as it is one of their own who is doing the dominating.

I'm not asking the Jewish people to do anything.

I said war sucks and both sides are to blame and the only way to stop war is to not play war. If you think that means I think the Jewish people need to roll over and be murdered, that's your own bias showing not mine.

Nowhere in my posts do I say, let people kill you (Palestinian or Jewish). Or not to defend oneself.

 

[Bthoth]

Dude, you should probably read the rest of the book. The biased cherry pick and ignore details. That's what you're doing now, it's what you do consistently.

What book?

Jimmy Carter Defends 'Peace Not Apartheid'​

NPR
https://www.npr.org › 2007/01/25 › jimmy-carter-defen...



Jan 25, 2007 — Former President Jimmy Carter finds himself in a defensive posture after criticism of his new book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid.

Even Jimmy had to take a DEFENSIVE posture for writing a book on the APARTHEID in ISRAEL.

 

[Bthoth]

The first step is listening. Understanding that there is a lot you don't know. If you won't listen, and assume you know it all, then you are not being reasonable and there is no opportunity for reasoning with others. It's just preaching.

Take your own advice.

I have watched the oppression of palestinians for longer than you have been alive.

And I am one of the few that comprehend what the root cause of the problem is: Idolatry for that mount. (zion)

If that was published long ago, the US population would have turned over a long time ago.

What you shared about the 1929 event is that the exact problem was identified by the locals. What you call rumors are in fact representing the EXACT issue, that the pursuit of that mount is the focal problem.

I listened, Thank you for the additional material.

 

[dybmh]

@Bthoth, @Firenze, @Revoltingest, @The Hammer,

It's Friday evening where I am. I will read your replies after the Sabbath.

 

[icehorse]

f you don't care about blame, then why are you blaming? Claiming both sides are responsible is blaming them both. If it's undesirable to do the hard work of learning the details, then it makes sense to admit ignorance. But it doesn't make sense to blame everybody.

The important aspect of this conflict that is being highlighted in this thread are the lies that are being told by the anti-israel propagandists. They have been saying that israel is lying about the manner which Hamas has setup command and control centers in hospitals. As usual, the anti-israel position is false.

The problem with taking the easy route is it permits the lies instead of standing in opposition to them. It's not that I don't sympathize. I do. It can be very uncomfortable to learn that news sources, politicians, academics, and trusted friends are being easily manipulated. Their pity on the Palestinians is being weaponized. Their intelligence, their education, and their good intentions are not protecting them from being exploited. To the contrary it is making it easier to exploit them.

The easy way, the lazy way, to avoid discomfort, to avoid confrontation with friends and political allies, is to avoid the facts and blame everybody. If you are not a target, then you have luxury of avoiding facts to maintain a mindset where your status quo is not challenged.

nicely put.

==

That said, we could start another thread about Islam, because IMO that's a bad set of ideas in need of some serious reform.

 

[Kenny]

True.
There are many posts with large portions I skip.
But I've read yours completely.

Apparently not as I amplified more than just the defacing of a Mosque that can create more violence

 

[Revoltingest]

Apparently not as I amplified more than just the defacing of a Mosque that can create more violence

Not in your posts# 35 & 38, the ones I responded to.
Or perhaps you don't read your own posts?
You could elaborate with additional examples.

 

[Revoltingest]

My intention is to defend the Israeli and Jewish people from defamation and libel. Also, I think it can be shown that the Palestinians are victims of propaganda, they are being manipulated and programmed by some extremely dangerous individuals. The world community appears to be simultaneously victims of this same propaganda and complicit in propagating it.

That is a really odd set of claims, given that Israel
is the biggest purveyor of hate filled propaganda
to justify human rights violations of Muslims.

...note, we are discussing "the worst of the worst".

We just disagree about which is the worst.
Israel is the most violent, dishonest, & deadly,
so I rank them worst.

The problem I see repeatedly is that critics equate Israel's actions with what happened to them even though they don't have facts to support it. That's why I asked...

There are plenty of facts showing that Israel
is a brutal oppressive murderous regime.
You just don't accept them.

The Israeli government warned the Gazans, and 1.8 million heeded that warning.

Without giving them the opportunity to actually
leave for someplace safe & accessible.

What do the Palestinians do? They intentionally attack the innocent.

So does Israel, even killing its own hostages
because they looked like Palestinian civilians.
And of course, some of the 20,000+ killed
were innocent....half being children that
Israel kills by pushing buttons from comfy
chairs while ensconced in a safe location.

But, the children are being raised to hate.

Israel inspires hatred with its apartheid,
torture, war crimes, collective punishment,
unlawful indefinite detention, & enabling
settlers to kill & rob Palestinians.

View attachment 85996

You should expect that the oppressed
will fight the oppressors. Israel justifies
armed resistance against it.

 

[Kenny]

Not in your posts# 35 & 38, the ones I responded to.
Or perhaps you don't read your own posts?
You could elaborate with additional examples.

Let me help you:

if they violate the rules of engagement they are wrong

That will cover just about everything that is wrong as per rules of engagement vs our rules of engagement.

 

[Kenny]

Not in your posts# 35 & 38, the ones I responded to.
Or perhaps you don't read your own posts?
You could elaborate with additional examples.

Here is a great example of fault:

 

[libre]

That doesn't mean that they are correct. You believe them? Why? What are your reasons for trusting their judgement? What facts did they use to produce that conclusion? Do you know?

I believe that First Nations have a more grounded understanding of national liberation movements than the Canadian Nation because they have lived experience as the victims, rather than the perpetrators of settler-colonialism.

You seem to assume that Israel is a colonizer but, you don't seem to have facts to back that up. It makes sense to make the assumption, it could be that the First Nations are making the same assumptions. It's still a false assumption.

The resolution I referenced recognized Palestine as an Indigenous people, and by extension that they have the right to self-determination under international law. It called for a permanent ceasefire but did not take a stance on the state of Israel otherwise.

To move onto your responses to other users:

The Gazans chose leaders who prioritize death, murder, and rape instead of water, food, power, etc ...

The Gazans haven't chosen any leaders since the mid 2000s. The Gazan's did not choose to cut off the water, food and power. Israel did in response to Hamas attacks.

 

[libre]

1993 - After years of violence, the first Oslo Accord, aimed at establishing peace between Israel and the Palestinians, is signed. Hamas opposes the peace process, and seeks to derail it with bus bombings and gun attacks in Israel.

Let's not let Hamas barbarity detract from the fact that the Oslo accords were a considered by many Arabs to be a Palestinian Versailles.

The conception of history you've laid out is one where Israel has consistently tried to be peaceful and have been attacked by savages, and that is the apologist viewpoint. Many of the deals offered to the Palestinians have been mob offers from Israel and America and not the commitments to peace that you suggest.

Edward Said’s spectre and the end of Oslo

What Edward Said predicted in the 1990s came to be. The PLO’s two-state project has failed.

www.aljazeera.com