oops I was mistaken he did right back I just forgot because it was an accusation that I was denying God because I'm not telling him to declare me righteous, could you please explain this further thanks, or anyone else that holds this position.?
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Free will?
- Thread starter Alone
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shmogie
Well-Known Member
Thank you ! Only goes to show that four pennies thrown at the same time can all come up heads, once in a great while.@Shmogie, I never thought I'd see the day when you and I would agree so fully on anything, but I guess miracles do happen after all!And to make it all the more miraculous, the other two posters who have liked your post so far are @Deeje and @InChrist, two posters with whom I almost never see eye-to-eye. So, kudos for a well-put response! (I would not have used the term "positional justification"; rather, I'd have said that while we can not be individually perfect, we can be "perfect in Christ," which is just another way of saying what you said.)
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I'm not sure I can explain. I don't believe there is anything specific you must do in order for God to consider you "righteous." I don't see God as keeping a tally of your successes and weighing them against your failures. To me, it's more a matter of what's in your heart than anything else. If you truly love Jesus Christ, I believe you will genuinely try to keep His commandments. I don't think God expects any more from you than your best efforts, which include repenting whenever you realize that you have fallen short of the goal. It is by grace that we are not only “saved” but made better. While it is true that God's plan is designed to bring us home to Him, it is designed even more to bring us home to Him transformed into better sons and daughters than we started out. Grace is the divine assistance that makes it possible for us to handle things we can’t figure out, can’t do, can’t overcome and can’t manage on our own. Because of grace, not only can we "go home" someday to our Heavenly Father, but can “feel at home” in His presence. We will feel like we belong with Him because, though grace, we will have become what He wants us to become. When you are genuinely committed to Jesus Christ, that's enough to make you perfect in God's eyes.
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Hmmmm.... Does that mean I can receive Grace if I am committed to Christ? Or if God is the one that gives Grace how do you know that he has given it to you? John 3
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
You know if you're committed to Christ or not, and it is my belief that if you are, you can be the recipient of His grace. God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ are united in their desires for our happiness and spiritual growth, so whether the gift of grace specifically comes from "God" or "Christ" it's yours for the asking. I believe you'll be able to feel the difference it makes in your life, and that's how you'll know you've received it.
Okay I can accept that answer I haven't felt it yet so I just have to keep plugging away thanks for your answers
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
You know, it's probably not going to come as some kind of an epiphany. I believe it requires trust on your part. Only you can know if you're fully committed to Christ. If you are, you have to trust that He's not going to promise you something and then turn around and go back on His word.
True thatYou know, it's probably not going to come as some kind of an epiphany. I believe it requires trust on your part. Only you can know if you're fully committed to Christ. If you are, you have to trust that He's not going to promise you something and then turn around and go back on His word.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
what are you hoping for?
InChrist
Free4ever
If you have sincerely asked Him , even once, then the problem lies with you not actually believing, not in Jesus or any lack on His ability to save or keep His word. He doesn't save people who "do better" and think they make a good impression. Jesus saves sinners.
If you are referring to what I was hoping or thought that it was going to say when I read it, then I thought it was going to be some kind of peachy Rosie I'm going to feel better type of thing, but if you mean what am I hoping for now, then I would have to say..... Not being in the lake of fire.
Yes, I totally agree with you on that, however I don't like being faced with the fact of not believing, especially when that means eternal fire.
I have just gone through your thread on here and if I may, I'd like to comment on these points....sorry its so long but I wanted to condense your thoughts into one post.
So it appears that you need a better definition of "perfect" and "holy", if an imperfect human is to imitate God.
The Greek words rendered “holy” (haʹgi·os) and “holiness” (ha·gi·a·smosʹ ha·gi·oʹtes; ha·gi·o·syʹne) denote separation to God; they also are used to refer to holiness as a quality of God and to purity or perfection in one’s personal conduct, as in abiding by God's moral laws.
This is telling me something about your ability to control yourself and your actions. Its as if your mind and body are under separate commanders. This, to all intents and purposes, may very well be an OCD issue. Your mind simply cannot control your actions. Has anyone ever suggested this to you? Do you have compulsions at times that are impossible for you to avoid happening?
Affirmation, both positive and negative, can influence our actions.
If you tell yourself you "can't" do something then you probably won't.
Jesus was perfect. There is an example. Imitate him and you can't go wrong....but none of us can do so perfectly.
Jesus taught us to "keep asking...keep seeking...keep knocking" and the door will be opened to us. (Luke 11:9)
Our behavior determines whether that door will open.
@dybmh asked...."Does your lack of belief in free-will effect your behavior? Are you less likely to take responsibility for hurting peoples feelings or do you lack impulse control?
Though not addressed to you personally, I believe that this is pertinent. Do you think you lack impulse control?
That is a medically recognized condition. Understanding it could help you deal with it in a more effective way than just being constantly disappointed in yourself.....how frustrating!
Without free will, the command in the Garden of Eden concerning the eating of the forbidden fruit would have been meaningless....the penalty also would have been meaningless....it was about choices and consequences....it still is. God predestines very little. He is more concerned with reacting to our use of free will.
The Bible gives us the incentive.....hate what God hates. If you don't hate it, you will be more inclined to do it.
But OCD does not allow you that choice.....you will do what you hate and lament the fact that you did it. It means a constant beating up on yourself.....that is what your life sounds like. I have a dear friend who suffers with this and its a daily struggle. I think I understand what you mean.
To ease your mind...there is no fiery furnace. "Hellfire" was an invention of the Catholic Church to scare their flocks into submission. It is not taught in the Bible at all....but you will find it in many pagan religions.
You seem to be very misinformed about sin and sinners. God wants to forgive, not condemn....but we have to give him something to bless. Failure is what we all face at times....we all sin, but we have the assurance of God's forgiveness. When a person suffers with OCD, the obsessive compulsions make no sense to anyone, not even to the person experiencing them. God knows the difference between wickedness and the weaknesses cause by our imperfections. He is not an ogre, but a loving God who does not want to condemn anyone.
If you are trying your best, then what more can God ask of anyone? My best may not be your best....your best may not be someone else's. We are all judged individually.
That is an interesting admission....."doing things against all thought or reason, which could possibly have the end result of going to the nut hut?"
Why does obeying the laws of God require you to do things against your reason?
You are supposed to surrender your will to God's. People of good moral character can do that with very little effort....but those who cannot control their own will, would find it almost impossible. That is what makes me think you have OCD. You aren't wicked...you are at the mercy of a medical condition if that's the case.
Solitude is good sometimes, but too much allows one to become too absorbed in one's own thoughts.
The fact that you feel a responsibility not to offend anyone shows you at least have good intentions.
I believe that the majority of people who are educated by those in Christendom, have a complete misconception of God.
And its a good one...we all need to find purpose to our being in order to satisfy that need in us...the one that wants to make our life count for something...even if its just being a good friend or a wise parent, passing along accumulated knowledge to our children. We don't have to be rich or famous to make our lives count for something.
There is no eternal fire.....God has no intention of roasting people alive...why would he?
What are your thoughts after reading this? Again, sorry its so long....
So it appears that you need a better definition of "perfect" and "holy", if an imperfect human is to imitate God.
The Greek words rendered “holy” (haʹgi·os) and “holiness” (ha·gi·a·smosʹ ha·gi·oʹtes; ha·gi·o·syʹne) denote separation to God; they also are used to refer to holiness as a quality of God and to purity or perfection in one’s personal conduct, as in abiding by God's moral laws.
This is telling me something about your ability to control yourself and your actions. Its as if your mind and body are under separate commanders. This, to all intents and purposes, may very well be an OCD issue. Your mind simply cannot control your actions. Has anyone ever suggested this to you? Do you have compulsions at times that are impossible for you to avoid happening?
Affirmation, both positive and negative, can influence our actions.
If you tell yourself you "can't" do something then you probably won't.
Jesus was perfect. There is an example. Imitate him and you can't go wrong....but none of us can do so perfectly.
Jesus taught us to "keep asking...keep seeking...keep knocking" and the door will be opened to us. (Luke 11:9)
Our behavior determines whether that door will open.
@dybmh asked...."Does your lack of belief in free-will effect your behavior? Are you less likely to take responsibility for hurting peoples feelings or do you lack impulse control?
Though not addressed to you personally, I believe that this is pertinent. Do you think you lack impulse control?
That is a medically recognized condition. Understanding it could help you deal with it in a more effective way than just being constantly disappointed in yourself.....how frustrating!
Without free will, the command in the Garden of Eden concerning the eating of the forbidden fruit would have been meaningless....the penalty also would have been meaningless....it was about choices and consequences....it still is. God predestines very little. He is more concerned with reacting to our use of free will.
The Bible gives us the incentive.....hate what God hates. If you don't hate it, you will be more inclined to do it.
But OCD does not allow you that choice.....you will do what you hate and lament the fact that you did it. It means a constant beating up on yourself.....that is what your life sounds like. I have a dear friend who suffers with this and its a daily struggle. I think I understand what you mean.
To ease your mind...there is no fiery furnace. "Hellfire" was an invention of the Catholic Church to scare their flocks into submission. It is not taught in the Bible at all....but you will find it in many pagan religions.
You seem to be very misinformed about sin and sinners. God wants to forgive, not condemn....but we have to give him something to bless. Failure is what we all face at times....we all sin, but we have the assurance of God's forgiveness. When a person suffers with OCD, the obsessive compulsions make no sense to anyone, not even to the person experiencing them. God knows the difference between wickedness and the weaknesses cause by our imperfections. He is not an ogre, but a loving God who does not want to condemn anyone.
If you are trying your best, then what more can God ask of anyone? My best may not be your best....your best may not be someone else's. We are all judged individually.
That is an interesting admission....."doing things against all thought or reason, which could possibly have the end result of going to the nut hut?"
Why does obeying the laws of God require you to do things against your reason?
You are supposed to surrender your will to God's. People of good moral character can do that with very little effort....but those who cannot control their own will, would find it almost impossible. That is what makes me think you have OCD. You aren't wicked...you are at the mercy of a medical condition if that's the case.
Solitude is good sometimes, but too much allows one to become too absorbed in one's own thoughts.
The fact that you feel a responsibility not to offend anyone shows you at least have good intentions.
I believe that the majority of people who are educated by those in Christendom, have a complete misconception of God.
And its a good one...we all need to find purpose to our being in order to satisfy that need in us...the one that wants to make our life count for something...even if its just being a good friend or a wise parent, passing along accumulated knowledge to our children. We don't have to be rich or famous to make our lives count for something.
There is no eternal fire.....God has no intention of roasting people alive...why would he?
What are your thoughts after reading this? Again, sorry its so long....
Well..... If you are accurate and I have a medical problem so to speak, if it cannot be fixed without taking drugs then I really wouldn't know what to say?
Other than that your comments seem to have insight and some hints of encouragement which is appreciated. I would like 2 no also why you think there is no hell, the Bible that I read clearly says that there is?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Have you never considered the possibility that your problem could have a medical explanation? When you see others in control of their lives, but it is something you cannot do....you have to know that you are not wicked. OCD is a serious condition for many because it controls their whole life. It comes in many manifestations, from obsession with germs, a dread of stepping on cracks in the pavement, to strong impulses to kill yourself.
Learning about it can at least explain why you have no self-control. It will allow you to stop beating up on yourself.
I was hoping to help you lighten up on yourself.
Jesus spoke of “Gehenna” which is s translated “hell” in many Bible translations. To his Jewish audience, he was referring to the Valley of Hinnom just outside the city of Jerusalem. It was the city’s garbage dump where the carcasses of dead animals and often the bodies of executed criminals were thrown for disposal. Fires were kept burning day and night to consume the refuse by adding brimstone (sulfur). What the flames missed, the maggots finished off. Jesus was referring to Isaiah 66:24. Jews have no hellfire.
In Jewish thought, if a person had no memorial tomb with name and family lineage inscribed on it, then these ones were thought to have no hope for a resurrection. It was tantamount to God forgetting that they had ever lived. It was a symbol of everlasting death. No one in Gehenna would ever live again.....that is where Jesus consigned the Pharisees.
Nothing alive was ever cast there.
Matthew 10:28...
“And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna.”
You see....the soul (the person) is destroyed in Gehenna.....not tortured.
Gehenna — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
The most important question is...”what are you being saved from?”
When the judgment comes, Jesus separates people into only two categories.....”sheep and goats”.
The sheep inherit “everlasting life”....the goats inherit “everlasting punishment” which is everlasting death.....not eternal torture.
There is no part of man that goes on living after death. The doctrine of an ‘immortal soul’ was adopted from Greek paganism...it is not taught in scripture. The ancient Jews believed that when you died, you slept in your grave in an unconscious state awaiting a promised resurrection, which is not going to heaven for the majority of humankind, but a restoration of life right here on a cleansed Earth returned to paradise conditions, as God purposed in the beginning. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; John 5:28-29)
We are saved from God’s anger when he finally judges the world by the one he appointed...Jesus Christ.
Jesus will the take his ‘chosen ones’ to heaven to assist him in the administration of his Kingdom, and once God has removed all causes of wickedness, we can return to the life that he meant for us in the beginning. (Revelation 20:6; Revelation 21:2-4)
The Kingdom that Jesus taught us to pray for is a government of God that will rule over earthly subjects, bringing them back to paradise. The life we live in this world is getting worse by the day.....this is not what God intended for humankind.....we thought that we could rule ourselves without him....God has allowed us to prove that we can’t.
God’s Kingdom will come...but not the way those in Christendom imagine...(Daniel 2:44) The world is about to be held to account along with its evil ruler. (1 John 5:19) The Bible tells us what to expect.....
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