osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Anyways that's the best I have understood it. But that's my opinion of what its saying.
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Free will?
- Thread starter Alone
- Start date
Anyways that's the best I have understood it. But that's my opinion of what its saying.
anna.
but mostly it's the same
“Take a moment to think about the context in which your next decision will occur: You did not pick your parents or the time and place of your birth. You didn't choose your gender or most of your life experiences. You had no control whatsoever over your genome or the development of your brain. And now your brain is making choices on the basis of preferences and beliefs that have been hammered into it over a lifetime - by your genes, your physical development since the moment you were conceived, and the interactions you have had with other people, events, and ideas. Where is the freedom in this? Yes, you are free to do what you want even now. But where did your desires come from?”
--Sam Harris, Free Will
I've read the book, it's quite slim, and while I don't agree with everything and don't know exactly how far I'n willing to move from a free will/personal responsibility position, the above quote has stayed with me, and I do believe that our will is not as free as we might imagine it to be.
Skwim
Veteran Member
If there was such a thing as free will perhaps you could, but there isn't, so my guess is that you never will.
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Does your lack of belief in free-will effect your behavior? Are you less likely to take responsibility for hurting peoples feelings or do you lack impulse control?If there was such a thing as free will perhaps you could, but there isn't, so my guess is that you never will.
It seems like a dis-belief in free-will would have some negative ( possibly unintended ) side effects. but I could be wrong, because I hold a different view.
Would you mind elaborating on these concerns? Not for debate, I'm just curious.
Well to be quite honest with you I'm not sure, I know that the Bible talks a lot about predestination, and I can't find the word free will in the Bible however there are verses that talk about choosing this and choosing that so I guess I'm actually trying to figure out what I believe here on this subject. This might not be the answer you were wanting but the bottom line is that's why I did this post because I'm hung up on this subject Romans 9 talks about predestination The vessel the Potter and the clay and then Paul gives an interesting assessment
Romans 9
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Verses 19 and 20 are the particular versus I'm referring to here? Especially verse 20
Romans 9
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Verses 19 and 20 are the particular versus I'm referring to here? Especially verse 20
Skwim
Veteran Member
Not that I'm aware of
I have no idea how I'd take my responsibilities if free will existed, so I can't really answer your question
Why? Has your supposed free will saved humanity from injustices? Of course it hasn't.
For one thing, people do what they do because they cannot do otherwise. I don't lack impulse control because it isn't the way I've developed. If people had actual free will I have no idea how their behavior would differ from what it is.
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
So, I am starting to realize that I may be looking at this specific issue upside-down or inside-out, and that's the actual cause of my concern. It's not even a real concern; it's a curiosity.
That said... without free-will where is the locus of control? It sounds like an external locus, which is very impulsive isn't it. it's almost like Calvinism ( pre-destination?) without the religious under-tone, but still lacking egalitarian morals.
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Well remembering the verse that says it's God's will that all be saved, that would make predestination mean that once you are saved you are predestined for the Kingdom wouldn't it?
The verses you mention here indicate Divine judgment of what is acceptable and what is rejected.
Some say the law was given so that mankind would be convicted of their futility in sinfulness. So only faith was acceptable to God, not works of pride. Pride is dangerous and futile to mankind.
When Pharoah sealed his own fate his heart was hardened by God because God saw that Pharoah wasn't ever going to accept God.
So when mankind all throughout the Bible chooses their own fate, and in choosing fate over destiny God reserves them as examples unto the faithful or would be faithful.
So basically God has masterfully fair judgment, and knows when never ever is never ever for those whom will not repent.
Why else would God demand to Pharoah to let his people go? God knows the point of never ever in the hearts of mankind and instead of delaying things he hardens the heart at that point. If Pharoah had any real will to repent God would have gave him every opportunity.
Since God knows all hearts God doesn't waste time on never ever wills.
So the vessels of wrath are dead set against God and know full well themselves on the matter.
So, imo, you can read the Bible just that way. That God saves to the uttermost. And never ever wills are reserved and used as examples before they are removed.
I will say that if all this stuff were real, and consistent, and the OT was fair and moral, I would have become a believer.
But I see none of this stuff as an accurate depiction of humanity.
So according to this comment the only thing I would have now is Hope that God would have mercy on me for my wrongdoings, because I can't change what I do? Am I understanding you correctly? this would definitely fall in the category of not being able to earn salvation for sure although it is not very comforting to say the least, however I cannot prove whether this is right or wrong?If there was such a thing as free will perhaps you could, but there isn't, so my guess is that you never will.
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Thief
Rogue Theologian
That is strange that you interpret these vs. This way but yet are not a believer? Scratching my head.
Maybe that would be a fair assessment, all I know is that I try and fail and repeat and wonder why I am not able to find a way to change?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I have been the same person....doing sooooooo many different things
but if there is a performance you do.....and it makes you feel small
don't do that
simply do something else
Things are becoming so cloudy in my head that it seems like the only choice I have anymore is which sin will I do next, almost as if I don't see the right anymore, I do not like feeling this way and somehow it's not changing, I've tried Church, praying the quote-unquote prayer 12 *, baptism 5 + x and even some silly things I'd rather not mention I tried to change this state that I'm in almost to the point of just giving up and accepting a fate in a fiery furnace which is not very comforting at all a man can only try so long with repeated failures before he gives up?
osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I was raised in Christianity all my life. Many in my family are Bible oriented!
Skwim
Veteran Member
If you're talking about personal control; a person able to choose between alternatives so as to control his destiny, there is no such thing. Choice and its cognates are merely labels describing imaginary acts. We only do what we are compelled to do.
In a sense, Calvinism comes close. "Calvinists hold that even if their scheme is characterized as a form of determinism, it is one which insists upon the free agency and moral responsibility of the individual." (source: Wikipedia) However, those who deny free will without reservation or exception, like myself, don't leave wiggle room for "free agency" or moral responsibility, (a form of compatabilism) although often times we are forced to act as if they existed. Like everyone else, we have no actual control over what we do, think, or feel.
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Skwim
Veteran Member
If hope is what you've been led to then that's what you have. I have no idea what your god would do, but you are right, volitionally you can't change what you do.
And one of the reasons hard determinism and its complete rejection of free will is so feared by Christians and others is that it robs sin and salvation of meaning.
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
So this is the part where, you may be tempted to say something like: "duh". But, where do morals come from for someone who doesn't believe in free-will. Is it simply 'do no harm?'
Example: A person is hungry, there is a box of cookies at the store and no one is watching. What is stopping the person from rationalizing theft of the cookies based on the their predetermined presence within arms reach, and the predetermined feeling of hunger, the predetermined desire to eat them, and the predestined aversion to paying for them?
I expect you will say, "duh", that's a Thief. If so, I apologize for making you explain it
amorphous_constellation
Well-Known Member
I mean, doesn't the existence of commands to be followed heavily imply that there is a will that can choose? If not, I am very confused.