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Free will?

Alone

Banned by request
service to self and service to other as self are choices.
True that, so now I wonder if I just am not trying hard enough, hmmm, as of this moment trying harder would entail doing things against all thought or reason, which could possibly have the end result of going to the nut hut? I don't know if I'm ready for the nut hut yet LOL.
 

Alone

Banned by request
unconditional love is perfect and acheivable by any individual who takes up that yoke. christ is not a single individual as colossians 3:11 explains and idolatry is repeatedly forbade throughout.

Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.


It is written: "I require love not sacrifice."
Well said, any suggestions on how a person would obtain to pure love, what I mean is practical application that actually works? Even if it defies logic and reason, thank you very much for your comment
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Well said, any suggestions on how a person would obtain to pure love, what I mean is practical application that actually works? Even if it defies logic and reason, thank you very much for your comment
unconditional love is as possible as unconditional surrender.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
So this is going way too far beyond my expectations to say the least it's almost as if God sits up there and is the director in his movie and we are the actors following the script? Kind of a scary thought if that is true.?
That's the legalistic, religious, attitude towards immoral behavior. Personally, I don't worry about that. Religious people have adequately demonstrated to me that religion is fiction, and God a fictional character in their mythological stories.

I see morality differently. The most fundamental moral principle I hold amounts to "We're all in this together. You improve the human situation and you're improving your own. Degrade the human situation and you're degrading your own." Everything else is founded on that.

The problem with immoral behavior is that we often mistake a short term benefit for ourselves as outweighing the more subtle, indirect, and long term degradation. So we make choices that are destructive, both to the human situation as well as our own individual situation. Because we're really kinda stupid, the way we're designed.

Moral behavior will improve your life. That's why you should do it.
Tom
 

Alone

Banned by request
unconditional love is as possible as unconditional surrender.
Well I must admit the book definitely talks about surrender, what do you suppose I am supposed to surrender I barely have anything left as it is and the things I do have we're given to me?
 

Alone

Banned by request
That's the legalistic, religious, attitude towards immoral behavior. Personally, I don't worry about that. Religious people have adequately demonstrated to me that religion is fiction, and God a fictional character in their mythological stories.

I see morality differently. The most fundamental moral principle I hold amounts to "We're all in this together. You improve the human situation and you're improving your own. Degrade the human situation and you're degrading your own." Everything else is founded on that.

The problem with immoral behavior is that we often mistake a short term benefit for ourselves as outweighing the more subtle, indirect, and long term degradation. So we make choices that are destructive, both to the human situation as well as our own individual situation. Because we're really kinda stupid, the way we're designed.

Moral behavior will improve your life. That's why you should do it.
Tom
When you say improve your life are you meaning inner improvement or outer improvement?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
When you say improve your life are you meaning inner improvement or outer improvement?
I'm not making a distinction.
Consistently making choices that are good for everyone will tend to improve your life on every important level.
Tom
 

Alone

Banned by request
You're Welcome.

To me, this is just a slightly more sophisticated version of The Golden Rule. Expressed in English.
Tom
Yes I like the idea of the Golden rule as you can see by my name title alone, I do not have interaction with very many people however when I do interact I am very reserved and do anything within my capability to not offend if possible of course in this life anything said can be turned and twisted so that is very difficult to do which is why I keep to myself most of the time. Thanks again for your input
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Does that mean we're like a bunch of robots walking around the Earth?
In a sense, yes, but unlike robots we're able to appreciate the mystery and adventure of life's unforeseen tableau that unfolds before us.

.
 

Alone

Banned by request
In a sense, yes, but unlike robots we're able to appreciate the mystery and adventure of life's unforeseen tableau that unfolds before us.

.
I see, at this point right now mystery is kind of frustrating me I don't like the idea of dying and not knowing what will happen after that, never really thought about it 10 years ago, but ever since I picked up that book my mind is like going crazy? it's kind of weird I didn't grow up in church and stuff although I've been around people that go to church or whatever and people that have talked about God and so on just never really thought about it much, so when I started reading I kind of had this preconceived notion of what I was going to hear, however it didn't say what I thought it was going to say.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I see, at this point right now mystery is kind of frustrating me I don't like the idea of dying and not knowing what will happen after that,
You're certainly not alone. And religions flourish in part because they give an answer to just this need, telling the flock that it's wine and roses after death IF one follows their rules (this is where their outstretched hand comes into play).

never really thought about it 10 years ago, but ever since I picked up that book my mind is like going crazy?
Just because people say the book they're wedded to is true doesn't mean it is. There are a lot of other books and teaching in the world far different from the Bible and its attendant religions. You just happen to have been born into a culture where the major source of religious answers happens to be the Bible. In fact, religion may not have gotten anything right. After all, despite claims to the contrary, religions are man-made, and conform to the needs of its followers with proclamations of inerrant truth.

Personally, all religions have failed to successfully make their case, and left with none to hang onto I've moved on to what I consider a more reasonable conclusion: I don't know if a god exists, and it doesn't matter. For sure I'm not about to latch onto a religion because it scares me into not doing so. In my opinion that's simply cruel and unworthy of anyone's attention.

.
 
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Alone

Banned by request
You're certainly not alone. And religions flourish in part because they give an answer just this need, telling the flock that it's wine and roses after death IF one follows their rules (this is where their outstretched hand comes into play).


Just because people say the book they're wedded to is true doesn't mean it is. There are a lot of other books and teaching in the world far different from the Bible and its attendant religions. You just happen to have been born into a culture where the major source of religious answers happens to be the Bible. In fact, religion may not have gotten anything right. After all, despite claims to the contrary, religions are man-made, and conform to the needs of its followers with proclamations of inerrant truth.

Personally, all religions have failed to successfully make their case, and left with none to hang onto I've moved on to what I consider a more reasonable conclusion: I don't know if a god exists, and it doesn't matter. For sure I'm not about to latch onto a religion because it scares me into not doing so. In my opinion that's simply cruel and unworthy of anyone's attention.

.
So if there is no God, then what? I've been basing the whole last 10 years on the premise that there is a God however I still don't know him so to speak, and I'm in a position now where if there is no God then I don't know what to do, why do I even exist at all?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
So if there is no God, then what?
As far as I can tell we come into existence and then go out of existence. Period! A lot of people can't handle this so they seek comfort elsewhere, which is almost always religion. To me this is not rational reason for joining a religion, but what I think about it is unimportant. What is important is that it helps enrich the life of the believer. In my opinion those who believe in a god are living an illusion, but as long as their religion-driven actions don't impinge on the lives of others I don't care.

I've been basing the whole last 10 years on the premise that there is a God however I still don't know him so to speak, and I'm in a position now where if there is no God then I don't know what to do, why do I even exist at all?
I don't know what your "knowing him" would entail, but if you've been trying for ten years without success, I think you should move on. I can't say to where, but if you truly find it difficult to go through life without a god then I strongly suggest you look for one that does work for you. :thumbsup:

.
 
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Alone

Banned by request
As far as I can tell we come into existence and then go out of existence. Period! A lot of people can't handle this so they seek comfort elsewhere, which is almost always religion. To me this is not rational reason for joining a religion, but what I think about it is unimportant. What is important is that it helps enrich the life of the believer. In my opinion those who believe in a god are living an illusion, but as long as their religion-driven actions don't impinge on the lives of others I don't care.


I don't know what your "knowing him" would entail, but if you've been trying for ten years without success, I think you should move on. I can't say to where, but if you truly find it difficult to go through life without a god then I strongly suggest you look for one that does work for you. :thumbsup:

.
Hmmmm...., I must admit at this point I'm stumped. I don't really have any desire to live any longer however I don't have the desire to kill myself either and if there is no God then life seems meaningless maybe that's what I'm trying to find purpose maybe there is no purpose I think I'm going to start a new post LOL
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
Well I must admit the book definitely talks about surrender, what do you suppose I am supposed to surrender I barely have anything left as it is and the things I do have we're given to me?
Everything isn't under self control but everything about self is under our control.


know thyself


“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” Sun-tzu the Art of War.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Because you, on your own, are inherently incapable of being holy. A 110 pound fellow with an artificial leg may choose to be a pro football running back, but it isn't going to happen.

It relates to holiness in only one exercise of free will, choosing to be justified, declared righteous, by the substitutionary application of Christ's life, death, and resurrection to you. It is called positional justification.

In His Grace, God through Christ, gives you unmerited favor in allowing you this choice to be perfect in Gods eyes.

Once the choice is made, you are given the power through the Holy Spirit to grapple with the bad choices you make, so you become less and less sinful. This is sanctification, which is a process throughout your life.
@Shmogie, I never thought I'd see the day when you and I would agree so fully on anything, but I guess miracles do happen after all! :) And to make it all the more miraculous, the other two posters who have liked your post so far are @Deeje and @InChrist, two posters with whom I almost never see eye-to-eye. So, kudos for a well-put response! (I would not have used the term "positional justification"; rather, I'd have said that while we can not be individually perfect, we can be "perfect in Christ," which is just another way of saying what you said.)
 

Alone

Banned by request
@Shmogie, I never thought I'd see the day when you and I would agree so fully on anything, but I guess miracles do happen after all! :) And to make it all the more miraculous, the other two posters who have liked your post so far are @Deeje and @InChrist, two posters with whom I almost never see eye-to-eye. So, kudos for a well-put response!
The post that you agree on is definitely a very interesting thought, however it gives the assumption that I am supposed to tell God what he is going to do that is make me righteous or forgive me or whatever I'm not sure that's entirely accurate maybe I'm misunderstanding this theology. Can you clarify this a little more the other guy never wrote anything else back.?
 
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