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Featured Free will?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Alone, Dec 1, 2019 at 12:39 PM.

  1. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
    1st Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
    16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
    So.... If I have free will I wonder why I cannot follow these two verses or rather choose to follow these two verses?
     
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  2. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    . . . because in reality you do not have Free Will to the degree of libertarian Free Will to make any choice you want The degree of Free Will humans have is seriously under question. It is most likely if we have Free Will it is limited by many factors such as our culture, conditioning by our upbring for generations, subconscious instincts, and the chain of cause and effect events of your life.
     
    #2 shunyadragon, Dec 1, 2019 at 1:22 PM
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019 at 3:04 PM
  3. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    Because you, on your own, are inherently incapable of being holy. A 110 pound fellow with an artificial leg may choose to be a pro football running back, but it isn't going to happen.

    It relates to holiness in only one exercise of free will, choosing to be justified, declared righteous, by the substitutionary application of Christ's life, death, and resurrection to you. It is called positional justification.

    In His Grace, God through Christ, gives you unmerited favor in allowing you this choice to be perfect in Gods eyes.

    Once the choice is made, you are given the power through the Holy Spirit to grapple with the bad choices you make, so you become less and less sinful. This is sanctification, which is a process throughout your life.
     
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  4. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    Hmmm,......... So if God told the man with one leg to be a football star wouldn't that be unfair or rather expecting something that he knows can't be done? That's how I feel, I don't understand the theology of telling God whether or not I am righteous? God in his power can declare me righteous if he's so wills it, that is not my choice to make but his, after all he is God and not I.
     
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    If God already knows that we are sinful, then the "holiness" he asks of us is the result of simple obedience. Right from the beginning, it is all God has ever asked of his human creation.

    So if God provides all the instructions in his word, is it impossible to follow them? Can we not use our free will to choose to obey him, even if it is against our imperfect will at times?

    If we fall, does God condemn us? Not right away....he gives us the opportunity to repent, and if we know what that means, then a heartfelt apology to God, coupled with determination not to repeat the mistake, is all he needs because Christ has paid for our redemption.
     
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  6. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member
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    He has stated that you can choose to be righteous through him. That isn't unfair, it is far more than we deserve. He made a way for it to occur, so it can be done.

    The choice is yours. Accept the gift of Gods unmerited favor toward you, or turn your back on Him.

    It is all about your absolute freedom to choose, or deny.
     
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  7. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    Free will does not mean perfect "power" to accomplish everything you will.
     
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  8. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    Holy is perfect and therefore have different type of free will, disciplined free will.
    43“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. " this this an example of what Jesus called being perfect.
     
  9. 1213

    1213 Well-Known Member

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    Please tell, what is preventing you?
     
  10. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    That my friend is a good question I continue to try and dry and try yet for some reason I continue to fail and fail and fail, almost to the point that I would rather die than continue to sin, as if I'm possessed or something I want to do what is right in my head but my body doesn't follow it's as if I have no control, of course I know that may sound like a cop out however I have tried everything from intentionally being homeless 2 walking around the country trying to clean up the sin out
    of my life with absolutely no results,
     
  11. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Active Member

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    Because you have a will, you are choosing not to follow these verses. You admit so in saying "cannot". That is a question you just must address yourself and not try and give excuses for your failure.

    Concerning 'will' man does not have 'free will'. He only has a 'will'. God alone has free will. God's will is not affected by any outside source or circumstance. Man's will is always acted upon and affected by outside sources and circumstance.

    Example: You have a boating accident and your two children are thrown equal distance, say 30 yards, away from you but in different directions. They have no life vests and cannot swim. You have enough energy and time to save one but there is no way you can save the other also. Which one do you save? What is your will?

    Your will is not free. It is locked into the circumstances handed you. You will be forced to live with your decision.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  12. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    That makes sense, so I guess my circumstance would be temptation, do you think that if I said I can be perfect then tomorrow I would just wake up and be perfect? Just because I said I "can" instead of "cannot"?
     
  13. leov

    leov Well-Known Member
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    'Perfect' does not mean sinless as transgressions-less. It means spiritually mature.
     
  14. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    How do you know that is what perfect means do you have literature or versus that state that? And if so I will be more than willing to read what it is. I've done a little bit of study on the word and the dictionary does not give that definition so I'm just curious where you are getting that from. Thanks
     
  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Here's my take on it: YMMV.

    The fact that a person with one leg can fight, persevere, and eventually play football at all is evidence of free-will. The limitation is of course the the Law of Nature as defined by science. So I would agree that free-will is limited. None of us are like the green-lantern(s) who can focus their "will-power" and fly off the ground.

    However, looking at it from God's perspective, if that's possible...

    Let's say that God's mission for me is to get over my own personal hang-ups, stop being an intense, aggressive, dominant, stereotypical man, and chill for a change. ( All of this still applies for someone who's mission is more Christian, IMO, but this is easier for me to describe. ) I think that God sets the table, ( so to speak, assuming the God exists of course ) and presents me with circumstances which might possibly lead me towards this ultimate goal, which I am calling simply, "to Chill Out". I have the free-will to completely ignore the table that has been set for me. God uses omnipotence to restrict it's own influence into the events of my life excluding those elements which are absolutely essential... in the analogy above, this is the the table which is set, just like for dinner. But God gives me the free-will to to eat or not to eat. To nibble, or to gorge... that's my view of free-will. If I do ignore it, or only nibble, the table is set again in a slightly different manner.

    Going back to your example of the amputee from my example is a little awkward though. Because it's insensitive and rude to consider something like a missing limb as some sort of vehicle for growth from the All-mighty. However, I do think that many amputees who have successfully adapted to their situation, may also adopt this point of view. They may see it as there own personal cross to bare. I think both of those attempts at rationalization and understanding are healthy. But that doesn't mean that I would ever suggest it out loud within earshot of anyone who is challenged in a whole host of ways, not just amputees.

    So that's my view of free-will. It's limited by the laws of science, and if God exists, then God is able to restrict God's omniscience and omnipotence on a granular level that is very difficult for anyone to imagine.
     
    #15 dybmh, Dec 1, 2019 at 5:31 PM
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019 at 6:22 PM
  16. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    Interesting I have to ponder on that a little bit thanks for your input.
     
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  17. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    I think the question is are you free to will what you will or are you simply who you are as a person no matter what. Certainly no one is totally free to do as they may. But are we free to will otherwise then we might? Certainly experiences can effect changes in will, but I do believe the act of will itself is one that ultimately rests with ourselves. So anyone that wills something is responsible for that willfulness whether it's acted out or not.

    It seems like the Bible is looking for a particular kind of will choice that is a freedom given by God to change one's will toward God and others. A change of nature from sinful to blameless. So Jesus would be the standard of character that mankind should opt for to choose. Otherwise doom awaits deservedly.

    So the power to become blameless comes from God and not ourselves.

    If this were reality we would all be begging for salvation hoping to get it at some point. So maybe we should all test ourselves to see if we can truly be good on our own. Then test to see if there are any powers in existence that would enable be us to change the road we are on if need be.

    Doom eternal vs. eternal life is a no brainer choice if that reality was real. And since we are rendered powerless according to the Bible we should be looking for that higher power. The one that enables a yes response to the correct authority.

    So like there must be something that is a door that is easy enough to open or close. And everybody whom has heard supposedly knows it. And those whom have never heard will one day be faced with this door.
     
  18. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    Also very interesting, do you think that meditation could possibly open this theoretical door that you are speaking of, and if not do you have any suggestions, I think I recall a scripture verse that says he stands at the door and knocks obviously that has to be a theoretical door? (Theoretical might not be the exact word I'm looking for here but the word is eluding me at the moment) thanks for your input
     
  19. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    According to the Bible it's something you seek for with all your might. And those whom seek for it that way shall not be refused. So once you know it's true you are totally responsible for your decision. Seek and knock. As I understand it that seems to be what it is saying.
     
  20. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    I can live with that.
     
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