Free will?

[Samantha Rinne]

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
1st Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
So.... If I have free will I wonder why I cannot follow these two verses or rather choose to follow these two verses?

Hahaha. No.

Perfect, doesn't have quite the same meaning to the Jews as the modern people.

You see, Jesus is fond of interesting word tricks (check my post history, earlier today I talked about how Jesus said give to Caesar what is his, but according to Jews everything belongs to God). The thing is, the Greeks believe in perfection. The Jews don't.

An Imperfect God

Is God perfect? You often hear philosophers describe “theism” as the belief in a perfect being — a being whose attributes are said to include being all-powerful, all-knowing, immutable, perfectly good, perfectly simple, and necessarily existent (among others). And today, something like this view is common among lay people as well.

There are two famous problems with this view of God. The first is that it appears to be impossible to make it coherent. For example, it seems unlikely that God can be both perfectly powerful and perfectly good if the world is filled (as it obviously is) with instances of terrible injustice. Similarly, it’s hard to see how God can wield his infinite power to instigate alteration and change in all things if he is flat-out immutable. And there are more such contradictions where these came from.

The second problem is that while this “theist” view of God is supposed to be a description of the God of the Bible, it’s hard to find any evidence that the prophets and scholars who wrote the Hebrew Bible (or “Old Testament”) thought of God in this way at all. The God of Hebrew Scripture is not depicted as immutable, but repeatedly changes his mind about things (for example, he regrets having made man). He is not all-knowing, since he’s repeatedly surprised by things (like the Israelites abandoning him for a statue of a cow). He is not perfectly powerful either, in that he famously cannot control Israel and get its people to do what he wants. And so on.

While Peter correctly uses the word holy (I'll explain why this is fine), the word "perfect" is a trick.

Holy comes from the same root word as holistic, meaning unified. That is, to say something is holy is not to say brilliant of shining like the sun, but more like... well, like a Yin Yang. Something that is united in seemingly opposite elements.

Isaiah 45:7 tells us that God forms light and creates darkness, and causes both good and bad things. I have an object lesson of this. I was walking to church, and the rain (which was intended to water the crops) poured down in sheets. I had an umbrella but it was literally getting my pantyhose wet and the wind was blowing the umbrella almost hard enough to rip it out of my hands. Then a friend from church happened to be late that day, so I got a ride over and managed to dry off.

We aren't intended to be little perfectionists. The Pharisees were like this, and Jesus hated them. We're supposed to be more like Taoists, mellow and able to see the world as both good and bad at the same time.

But yes, you can choose to follow these verses. You can choose to try to be "perfect" and always fall short. Or you can choose to be "holy" and be much more on target.

 

[InChrist]

That my friend is a good question I continue to try and dry and try yet for some reason I continue to fail and fail and fail, almost to the point that I would rather die than continue to sin, as if I'm possessed or something I want to do what is right in my head but my body doesn't follow it's as if I have no control, of course I know that may sound like a cop out however I have tried everything from intentionally being homeless 2 walking around the country trying to clean up the sin out
of my life with absolutely no results,

Have you asked Jesus to save you or are you continuously attempting to deal with sin in by your own ability?

 

[Samantha Rinne]

That my friend is a good question I continue to try and dry and try yet for some reason I continue to fail and fail and fail, almost to the point that I would rather die than continue to sin, as if I'm possessed or something I want to do what is right in my head but my body doesn't follow it's as if I have no control, of course I know that may sound like a cop out however I have tried everything from intentionally being homeless 2 walking around the country trying to clean up the sin out
of my life with absolutely no results,

You are failing because you are trying to measure up to the law.

Christ Has Redeemed Us

10All who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”c 11And it is clear that no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.”d 12The law, however, is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.”e 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. For it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.”f 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing promised to Abraham g would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

15Brothers, let me put this in human terms. Even a human covenant, once it is ratified, cannot be canceled or amended. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”h meaning One, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law that came 430 years later does not revoke the covenant previously established by God, so as to cancel the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God freely granted it to Abraham through a promise. 19Why then was the law given? It was added because of transgressions, until the arrival of the seed to whom the promise referred. It was administered through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator is unnecessary, however, if there is only one party; but God is one. 21Is the law, then, opposed to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come from the law. 22But the Scripture pronounces all things confined by sin, so that by faith in Jesus Christ the promise might be given to those who believe.

Early Christians figured out what Jesus was trying to tell them, that measuring up to the law was a losing game. The law is there as a guideline to standards of conduct, but as any Protestant will tell you (why I hate Catholicism) you are not intended to beat yourself up with Hail Mary and endless confessions, you are intended to understand the gift of grace, and to deepen a personal relationship with Jesus.

 

[Skwim]

So this is the part where, you may be tempted to say something like: "duh". But, where do morals come from for someone who doesn't believe in free-will. Is it simply 'do no harm?'

Just because we don't actually choose our responses doesn't mean they don't arise in us. Reason, empathy, and other feelings come about as a matter of course, having been built out of an accumulation of past events giving rise to to new ones: the cause-effect principle writ without exception.

Example: A person is hungry, there is a box of cookies at the store and no one is watching. What is stopping the person from rationalizing theft of the cookies based on the their predetermined presence within arms reach, and the predetermined feeling of hunger, the predetermined desire to eat them, and the predestined aversion to paying for them?

Because of the accumulation of all the previous cause-effect events that impinge on him at the moment of action he can do no differently. To do so would require that something in the past be different, but there wasn't, so what happened had to happen. Here is a very simplistic diagram I once created showing why an event (present effect here) is what what it is.

​

As a matter of challenge, ask yourself why you just did X (whatever it may be) instead of Y. And whatever that answer is ask yourself why that particular reason rather than some other, and continue on in that questioning manner. If you do it properly, you will run into a never ending list of past "becauses." This doesn't mean you'll be able to identify all of them, or even a small fraction, but hopefully it will give you an idea of our dependency on past cause/effect events.


.

 

[dybmh]

Perfect, doesn't have quite the same meaning to the Jews as the modern people.

Really. What's the "Jew" meaning of the word "perfect"?

 

[dybmh]

As a matter of challenge, ask yourself why you just did X (whatever it may be) instead of Y. And whatever that answer is ask yourself why that particular reason rather than some other, and continue on in that questioning manner. If you do it properly, you will run into a never ending list of past "becauses." This doesn't mean you'll be able to identify all of them, or even a small fraction, but hopefully it will give you an idea of our dependency on past cause/effect events.

OK, I think I understand... he effect becomes the cause...thank you.

 

[Thief]

Things are becoming so cloudy in my head that it seems like the only choice I have anymore is which sin will I do next, almost as if I don't see the right anymore, I do not like feeling this way and somehow it's not changing, I've tried Church, praying the quote-unquote prayer 12 *, baptism 5 + x and even some silly things I'd rather not mention I tried to change this state that I'm in almost to the point of just giving up and accepting a fate in a fiery furnace which is not very comforting at all a man can only try so long with repeated failures before he gives up?

working off of dogmatic belief will make you frustrated

simplify...…
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you

 

[stvdv]

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
1st Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
So.... If I have free will I wonder why I cannot follow these two verses or rather choose to follow these two verses?

When you start first year in college, no one expects you to BE Einstein.

After 5year hard study, you might be, with the help of good teachers, or being a good Self-taught.

Same in Spiritual life IMHO. Self effort is of paramount importance, and Grace of a good "teacher" also. You need to read and study books in University. Same in Spiritual life, they can be of help to get there.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
1st Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
So.... If I have free will I wonder why I cannot follow these two verses or rather choose to follow these two verses?

IMHO, only perfect moral people can be in Heaven. Jesus not only forgives sinners but transforms them. In Heaven, I will never again rebel against God or hurt others. We will be morally PERFECT if we trust Jesus for salvation.

 

[Alone]

I mean, doesn't the existence of commands to be followed heavily imply that there is a will that can choose? If not, I am very confused.

I'm with you on this it seems like after 10 years of pounding out many ideas on how to change my ways with absolutely no success it appears as though I have no free will, however free will cannot be proven as far as I know other than based on my past experience of failure, on the other hand people who believe in Free Will condemn me and say that I'm making excuses for not being able to do something that I know my mind wants to do or I think my mind wants to do. And to take it a step further every church I go to believes in free will? However I never been to a calvinist church.

 

[Alone]

Hahaha. No.

Perfect, doesn't have quite the same meaning to the Jews as the modern people.

You see, Jesus is fond of interesting word tricks (check my post history, earlier today I talked about how Jesus said give to Caesar what is his, but according to Jews everything belongs to God). The thing is, the Greeks believe in perfection. The Jews don't.

An Imperfect God



While Peter correctly uses the word holy (I'll explain why this is fine), the word "perfect" is a trick.

Holy comes from the same root word as holistic, meaning unified. That is, to say something is holy is not to say brilliant of shining like the sun, but more like... well, like a Yin Yang. Something that is united in seemingly opposite elements.

Isaiah 45:7 tells us that God forms light and creates darkness, and causes both good and bad things. I have an object lesson of this. I was walking to church, and the rain (which was intended to water the crops) poured down in sheets. I had an umbrella but it was literally getting my pantyhose wet and the wind was blowing the umbrella almost hard enough to rip it out of my hands. Then a friend from church happened to be late that day, so I got a ride over and managed to dry off.

We aren't intended to be little perfectionists. The Pharisees were like this, and Jesus hated them. We're supposed to be more like Taoists, mellow and able to see the world as both good and bad at the same time.

But yes, you can choose to follow these verses. You can choose to try to be "perfect" and always fall short. Or you can choose to be "holy" and be much more on target.

Did you say that Jesus hated somebody? Never heard that one before. Holy is like ying yang? Never heard that one either interesting though. So the general consensus seems to be that falling short is what we will all do. If that is the case then why should we even worry about God at all as far as I can tell from reading the Bible sinners do not make it to heaven, unless I guess God decides to forgive them, seeing how I do not have the mind of
God I do not know that he will forgive me so that is very depressing!

 

[amorphous_constellation]

However I never been to a calvinist church.

Not sure where those would exist. probably somewhere in america there's something like it, since they probably have the most diffusion of denominations

 

[Alone]

Not sure where those would exist. probably somewhere in america there's something like it, since they probably have the most diffusion of denominations

Yeah the denominations things kind of got me a little confused too seems a little more like divisions the first five letters are demon with the "m" and "n" in opposite place?

 

[Alone]

If you're talking about personal control; a person able to choose between alternatives so as to control his destiny, there is no such thing. Choice and its cognates are merely labels describing imaginary acts. We only do what we are impelled to do.


In a sense, Calvinism comes close. "Calvinists hold that even if their scheme is characterized as a form of determinism, it is one which insists upon the free agency and moral responsibility of the individual." (source: Wikipedia) However, those who deny free will without reservation or exception, like myself, don't leave wiggle room for "free agency" or moral responsibility, (a form of compatabilism) although often times we are forced to act as if they existed. Like everyone else, we have no actual control over what we do, think, or feel.

.

Does that mean we're like a bunch of robots walking around the Earth?

 

[Alone]

Have you asked Jesus to save you or are you continuously attempting to deal with sin in by your own ability?

I have asked him 12 times I don't think he likes me very much I guess that's why I'm trying to do better? not to be saved but because it's the right thing to do

 

[columbus]

So the power to become blameless comes from God and not ourselves.

To me, this is the true Problem of Evil.

Our human nature, with our propensity towards theft and violence and sex and environmental destruction, comes from God. If we are designed by God, then that's what God keeps doing, for whatever reason God has.

Sometimes we are taught better by other humans. But we aren't really that smart and often don't very well absorb the lessons. Because God, if such exists, keeps making us kinda stupid and strongly resembling other primates.

We aren't particularly free to escape our God given nature. And if there's a God who cares about that, I don't know about It.

That is the real Problem of Evil.
Tom

 

[Alone]

You are failing because you are trying to measure up to the law.



Early Christians figured out what Jesus was trying to tell them, that measuring up to the law was a losing game. The law is there as a guideline to standards of conduct, but as any Protestant will tell you (why I hate Catholicism) you are not intended to beat yourself up with Hail Mary and endless confessions, you are intended to understand the gift of grace, and to deepen a personal relationship with Jesus.

Okay I can see what you're saying there, however the book of Galatians clearly states chapter 3 that the law is the schoolmaster to bring us unto the faith so without gaining unto the law or rather surpassing the law which would go to Matthew 5:20 I believe, unless your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, there is also a law of faith which is mentioned in Romans?. This law of faith is way beyond and above the law of flesh.

 

[Alone]

To me, this is the true Problem of Evil.

Our human nature, with our propensity towards theft and violence and sex and environmental destruction, comes from God. If we are designed by God, then that's what God keeps doing, for whatever reason God has.

Sometimes we are taught better by other humans. But we aren't really that smart and often don't very well absorb the lessons. Because God, if such exists, keeps making us kinda stupid and strongly resembling other primates.

We aren't particularly free to escape our God given nature. And if there's a God who cares about that, I don't know about It.

That is the real Problem of Evil.
Tom

So this is going way too far beyond my expectations to say the least it's almost as if God sits up there and is the director in his movie and we are the actors following the script? Kind of a scary thought if that is true.?

 

[Fool]

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
1st Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
So.... If I have free will I wonder why I cannot follow these two verses or rather choose to follow these two verses?

service to self and service to other as self are choices.

 

[Fool]

Because you, on your own, are inherently incapable of being holy. A 110 pound fellow with an artificial leg may choose to be a pro football running back, but it isn't going to happen.

It relates to holiness in only one exercise of free will, choosing to be justified, declared righteous, by the substitutionary application of Christ's life, death, and resurrection to you. It is called positional justification.

In His Grace, God through Christ, gives you unmerited favor in allowing you this choice to be perfect in Gods eyes.

Once the choice is made, you are given the power through the Holy Spirit to grapple with the bad choices you make, so you become less and less sinful. This is sanctification, which is a process throughout your life.

unconditional love is perfect and acheivable by any individual who takes up that yoke. christ is not a single individual as colossians 3:11 explains and idolatry is repeatedly forbade throughout.

Proverbs 10:12
Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.


It is written: "I require love not sacrifice."