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Featured For Christians Only: The Big Picture

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Deeje, Jul 3, 2019.

  1. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I haven't seen any statements of fact. That would be something new from the poster concerned.

    Got any statements of fact that you'd like to offer? Or are snide jabs and cheap shots what you do too? Takes one to know one I guess. :D

    And again.....isn't that called being a hypocrite? :shrug:
     
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    OMG! Did you make that up??? Or did you actually get that from someone else? It sounds like a sci-fi movie script.....a bad one.

    None of that is from the Bible.....so I am hard pressed to understand your description as a "bible believer"....?
     
  3. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Well-Known Member
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    Still stinging I see. Well, the truth does hurt. Considering your first comments to me were an attack on the Christian religion I follow, I feel very comfortable that you are still winner and champion of the Hate Against Other Christians contest.

    And you got more jabs and cheap shots in on this post too. Wow! You must be one tremendously insecure person. You cannot go for even a little bit without doing it. It is like you are bound and determined to provide the example for my statements of fact. Thank you so much.

    I would go on, but I choose not to waste any further time with you.
     
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  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Oh I see, you're the one still stinging from that exchange....wasn't that about the hypocrisy of a Christian claiming that God didn't create what he said he did? That he just created evolution and left us to it? Wasn't it something like that? And how long ago was that??? Grudges are so unchristian you know.....:oops:

    You are more than welcome, but I'm sure anyone reading this is smiling like I am over your own jabs and snide remarks about my jabs and snide remarks..... :confused:

    [​IMG]

    I think you just did....:D Bye....
     
  5. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Well-Known Member
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    See what I meant by my last post to you. Petty, yet completely oblivious to it out of their own self righteousness. She is one of the worst offenders too.
     
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  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Are you also a young earth creationist?
     
  7. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    That’s obvious. It skews your thinking.

    So the texts fell out of the sky in your denomination’s particular translation. Unless that happened, the texts ARE the product of human beings.

    But, there are more than a dozen that YOU don’t include. Are you, then, going against God’s will? If God is the author of sacred text, and some of those sacred texts are NOT included, then aren’t you attempting to edit what God has provided?
    That’s a big part of the problem. Spiritual matters include a whole lot of grey area, especially where sacred text is concerned. Black/white seems an indefensible approach.

    It’s been going on since the texts began to be canonized. Your 66 books is the result of this picking and choosing you are condemning.
     
  8. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Yet, the text says, "And on the seventh day God finished the work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all the work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation."
    Do you see the past tense? "Finished," "rested," "had done," "blessed," "hallowed," "rested," "had done." All acts of God on the 7th day are Past. Tense. If the 7th day is ongoing, the verbs would be in present tense. But they're not. Because the 7th day is over.

    The 7 days of creation are mythic, not literal. It has been shown that the creation stories come from much older Sumerian and Egyptian myths. In those mythic accounts, God is Creator, not magician.
     
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  9. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Genesis was clearly written without the concept of the Greek Satan. The Genesis account clearly is using the symbol of the serpent to describe wisdom. That's why the caduceus is the symbol of the medical profession. The serpent stands for wisdom, not deception. In several older accounts (from which Genesis is derived), wisdom comes in the form of a pariah.

    Their eyes were opened, according to the texts. They acquired the knowledge of good and evil -- just as Wisdom had told them.

    I don't see how that theologically follows. The devil is unnecessary to salvation.

    Except that Jesus was dealing with the nation of Israel, not individuals. If Jesus is Messiah, Jesus is Messiah of the nation of Jews -- not just individuals.

    Ditto.
     
  10. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    There comes a point, though, where you have to exclude certain texts. We feel Jehovah has done that, with those 66 books and no others.

    “The twenty-four book canon [the Tanakh] is mentioned in the Midrash Koheleth 12:12: Whoever brings together in his house more than twenty four books brings confusion.[20]
    ——Hebrew Bible - Wikipedia

    The Jews were restrictive, too, regarding Holy Texts.


    The Scriptures are all we need and are hard enough to understand accurately, without adding further confusing and often contradictory texts.
     
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  11. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I get that. And I agree. But the poster to whom I responded said that "God provided everything we need" in the way of holy text. God provided. When we, then, "have to exclude certain texts," that's our act -- not God's act, if we're sticking with that particular paradigm. If it's true that "God provided everything we need," and there are legitimate bibles with many more than 66 books, how can a very human weeding-out process be tolerated? Seems as though that would be going against what "God intended."

    FWIW, I disagree that "God provided" where texts are concerned. I just don't buy it. The textual product is a human product. It's part of the Tradition of the Apostles.
     
  12. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for your reply.

    This is the way I see it:
    I believe the Scriptures, the 66-book canon. It presents what I feel is a logical explanation of the origin of humans. (Humans are vastly superior to any other organism on Earth, with our sentient capacity for love, Justice, etc. Evolution doesn’t provide any satisfactory answer, to me.)

    It makes sense that a Creator who’s loving, would give His best to His children. And Adam & Eve had the best, like a caring father would give his offspring. They were created perfect (a condition we don’t fully understand), and had all they needed. Very few Laws, BTW.

    I also found out something that the Bible in Genesis 3 tells us, that there were issues raised by an Opposer in G of E (which A & E listened to). It required time to settle, and also required God’s absence from human affairs (for the most part; reference Genesis 6).

    Since He was going to “be away” from us, it also makes sense that He, being loving, would give us a book, telling us about Him, how to act, what things to avoid, how to repel His Enemy that was the cause of this rebellion, and other issues.

    This is just a simple explanation.

    Take care
     
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  13. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    No. The earth is very ancient and the living things on it are much older than humans. We do not dismiss what science knows, but we do question what it assumes without real evidence.

    The creative "days" were not 24 hours long....we believe that they were thousands or even millions of years in length....however long it took the Creator to accomplish all that he needed in order to declare His accomplishments to be "good" or even "very good". The Bible does not argue with that.

    As there is no declaration to conclude the 7th day, we don't believe that It has ended. When the rule of God's Kingdom brings mankind back to God's original purpose in Eden, it also will be declared, "very good".

    This is why Jesus taught us to pray for God's Kingdom to "come" so that God's will can be done "on earth as it is in heaven."
     
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    And you and others are as entitled to think that of me as I am of anyone else.
    Why are we here after all? Isn't it to state what we belive and why we believe it? Aren't we all then free to evaluate what others believe?
    Why be offended if our beliefs are challenged?

    e.g. I believe that one cannot possibly combine creation and macro-evolution, but there are some here who can, because they interpret the Bible to accommodate it. I also don't believe that Sharmanism and Christianity can be fused either because scripturally, they are completely incompatible....but those like yourself find no such incompatibility. So you are as free to criticise my beliefs as I am yours. Debating about these things allows others to consider both views and to make up their own minds. Isn't that a good thing?

    Those who get all bent out of shape when their beliefs are challenged should go and find a website where no one is allowed to do that. I don't think RF is that place. Getting hostile accomplishes what? It just betrays a lack of confidence in ones own views IMO. When people can't defend, they attack. It's what humans do.

    Why does it need to fall out of the sky? A translation is a translation....the Bible was not written in English, so it is obvious that there is a propensity for those with religious bias, to translate certain passages in accord with their own pre-conceived beliefs. Having a translation that eliminates that bias to the extent possible is important. Bias, however is in the eye of the beholder. Before reacting negatively, a bit of research into the original languages is useful but sometimes confronting when it discloses a flaw in our belief system.

    God inspired the Bible writers to record his dealings with the human race. They contain his laws and requirements and as the Creator of all, he obligates humans to uphold them, regardless of what "religion" they follow. God did not create those religions, humans did, to accommodate what they wanted to believe.

    Again, if it is God's word, then He was the one who determined the finished product. Whom he used to accomplish that is irrelevant. God can use even his enemies to accomplish his purpose.

    If you believe that the Bible is just the words of men, then it becomes a fallible, worthless piece of human wisdom which would render its recommendations and commands as something that can be dismissed if it goes against ones chosen beliefs. Isn't that what we see?

    God promised that as we got closer to the end of this corrupt world system, that he would provide knowledge that would eliminate all those "grey" areas. Those who still think there is "grey" cannot really have the truth. At this point in time, we are no longer stumbling around in the dark. Along with that knowledge however, was the warning that those whom God considers "wicked" (immovable in their views, much like the first century Pharisees) would still be clueless, not seeing the need to clean up or refine their worship. (Daniel 12:4; Daniel :12: 9-10) This "time of the end" leaves no room for doubt. (James 1:5-8)

    Human squabbles notwithstanding, those 66 books are all we need to serve the true God successfully. There is nothing of value that is missing. If you believe that the Bible is God's word, you free yourself from the kind of doubt that undermines faith. The Bible builds faith, but you have to know what it teaches.

    We are all free to believe whatever we wish.....but getting our nose out of joint because someone challenges our chosen view is a bit out of place in a debate forum, is it not?

    Either there is an all powerful Creator who left humans with his guidance in the form of written laws and principles to direct our lives...or he didn't give us any guidance at all. He is not a God of confusion....there is another in that role. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) In that scenario, if we believe it, it's up to us to make our own choices and deal with the consequences.

    What do you believe that the Creator is doing right now, as he is observing all this religious confusion and allowing all of us to choose what to believe? What does he want for us? Aren't we all doing what we want with regard to our worship....but how many of us are doing what GOD wants? That's the big question, isn't it?

    Jesus said we must be "doing the will of the Father", regardless of what we call ourselves. (Matthew 7:21-23) How do you do the "will of the Father" if you don't even know what it is?
     
  15. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    I’m not criticizing your beliefs. I’m criticizing your lack of critical thinking.

    So, a critique of the logic used in a debate is “hostility” now?

    So, there IS a human factor, then. And if there’s a human factor, it’s biased, fallible and of limited perspective.

    Apparently, Martin Luther determined the finished product, because, until he came along, there were more books included.

    It is fallible, but it’s not worthless. From where I stand, all people dismiss what they don’t like. Or reinterpret, mostly without due diligence.

    Are they? Since when did they become “all we need?” Because there used to be more. Who decided to omit them? People?

    If you employ doubt responsibly, you keep your faith from becoming blind certitude.
    Or, God gave us the apostles and their ongoing teaching. Remember: there was no Bible as you know it for the first 450 years of Christianity.

    Prayer, discernment, the apostles’ teaching.
     
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  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I'm sorry, but its your opinion that my critical thinking is lacking....my thinking is no more "skewed" than your own.....should I question your lack of critical thinking just because it disagrees with mine?

    Is that what I said? Do you make it a habit of striking down strawmen? Again, why is it illogical just because it doesn't agree with your worldview? Who said it was the logic that was hostile....? Its your tone that is hostile. Re-read your replies to me. You don't have to agree with me but you don't have to get mean spirited either.

    If God can use humans to accomplish his will, then you miss the point. The humans used are irrelevant. They do not even recognize the fact that God is working through them. Its much the same as it says in Revelation, God puts ideas in their head and they do his bidding thinking that its all their own idea. (Revelation 17:15-17)

    God using humans again? Why not? It was time for action against a completely corrupted church.

    I have never found it to be fallible....I find human interpretation to be fallible. We dismiss nothing....and we take the Bible for what it says in the context of the whole book, not just bits and pieces taken out of context and misconstrued to mean something completely different to what is said. It is one story...those who can't see it, don't know what the big picture is....they are too busy staring at what they believe are the dead pixels.

    Since God guided the process, he put what we needed all in one book and told us to use it to guide our lives.
    People had little to do with its content.

    Employ doubt about yourself? absolutely...but about the word of God...NEVER! Blind faith serves no one. Being confident about your beliefs is described in Hebrews 11:1.

    "Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen."
    An "assured expectation" leaves no room for doubt. If you know your Bible, and understand its message, you need nothing else....All the important questions are answered.

    When Paul wrote to Timothy, "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17).....he was speaking about the Hebrew scriptures. They were all that was necessary up until Christ came....but what he left was recorded by his apostles and others.....this was to guide the church that Jesus started...but it was also foretold that it too would suffer corruption, just as Judaism did before it.

    Exactly.....but as it was prophesied by Jesus himself, "weeds" sown by the devil were to produce a "fake" form of Christianity that would all but choke the "wheat" out of existence. That corrupted 'church' introduced all manner of false doctrines and misrepresented Christ in the worst way. It held a tyrannical hold over "Christianity" for 1500 years...and then God used Martin Luther to break the power of the Roman church, doing what most would have been too scared to even contemplate. He protested about the abuses he saw.....loudly, and others joined him, sick of the complete and evil abuse of their power.

    Protestantism gave the Bible back to the common people and made it possible for all to read God's word translated into common languages. But they failed to unite Christianity....breaking it up into thousands of bickering sects. So where to now?

    When Christ returns to judge this world, who will he recognize as his own? Won't it be interesting to find out?
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Excellent post.. Its important to stay on track and not stray from the truth.
     
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  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member
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    Ezra and Daniel and a little bit of Jeremiah were written in Aramaic.
     
  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Your posts, themselves, are evidence of such a lack; it's not my opinion.

    It's not illogical because it differs from my world view. It's illogical because it's illogical.

    I call BS. When we're connected with God -- we know it. Because God connects with us holistically, how can our cognizance NOT be engaged?

    That passage says nothing about not being aware that God is working through one.

    That's your opinion. The church still survives. Had it been completely corrupt, it would not have survived. And it's still the largest sect of the body of Christ. Yes, there was corruption. But that corruption was not complete. The church righted itself.

    See above. This is an excellent example of a lack of critical thinking where the texts are concerned.

    You just quoted Revelation out of context above, and used it out of context to support a statement that it patently does not support.

    Again: see above. This, too, is an excellent example of a lack of critical thinking. As far as the texts are concerned, you're seeing a big picture that does not exist.

    Apparently, then, human beings fouled up what God intended.

    That is the textbook definition of blind faith.

    The bible many times raises more questions than it answers. That's how we grow: by questioning.

    The church Jesus started is the one that provided the bible with more than just 66 books. The church that Jesus started is the one you call "fake."

    Here's another glaring example of taking a bit of text completely out f context. The parable of the wheat and weeds has nothing to do with passing judgment on the church. It has everything to do with the overall message of Matthew (indeed, it's the central message of Matthew), which is inclusiveness.
    Again, this post is your opinion, not fact. This is an instance of you not liking what you hear and justifying why you won't have faith in the church. How do you know the doctrines are "false?" You don't.
     
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  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I believe that is your opinion, no matter how many people share it....remember the example of Jesus and his apostles? Whose opinion was shared by the majority back then, leading to the murder of their own savior? Majority opinion is deceptive. (Remember Noah's day too)

    I have an opinion as well, one that is not shared by as many as you, perhaps, but is your opinion somehow superior to mine because it might be more popular, and if so how? You sound like someone who is used to having authority. It isn't worth anything here. Like me, you are just anonymous words on a page.

    It's illogical to you...but who said your logic is correct? You? Those who share your view? How many actually agree with your particular form of Christianity.....? Just curious...

    You can call whatever you like....there is another god working in opposition to Jehovah. He is clearly identified in the Bible, and his agenda has never changed. This "angel of light" is capable of "blinding minds" (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) which is so much more successful than just blinding eyes. A blinded mind prevents information from all the senses from being processed correctly in the brains information processing center. But the good thing is, that this can only occur with "unbelievers".

    The "wheat" are the believers, the ones invited by God into a relationship with him through his son...(John 6:65)....the "weeds" are the ones sown by the devil to become counterfeit "Christians" who were to be identified by Jesus at the judgment as claiming 'all the things they did in the name of their Lord' but being rejected by him as those he "never knew". (Matthew 7:21-23) Do the fake Christians know that they are fakes? Apparently not. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12) They are under a delusion of their own invention and they love it, so God lets them keep it.
     
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