1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured For Christians ... a question I've had for a long time

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Vinayaka, Feb 13, 2021.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,225
    Ratings:
    +2,309
    Yes, in English KJV we are told " was God "
    The same Greek grammar rule applies at both John 1:1 and at Acts of the Apostles 28: 6 B
    Notice KJV inserted the letter 'a' at Acts but omits the letter 'a' at John.
    Even the definition of the word ' with ' implies another person.
    We are told at John 1 that Jesus was ' in the beginning '
    Psalms 90:2 informs that God is from everlasting ( meaning No beginning for God )
    So, only God was ' before ' the beginning.
    Pre-human heavenly Jesus was ' in ' the beginning, but Not ' before' the beginning as his God was ' before' the beginning of anything.
    This is why Revelation 3:14 B can say that pre-human Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God.
    Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. 37818

    37818 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2021
    Messages:
    333
    Ratings:
    +42
    Religion:
    Christian (Baptist)
    ". . . And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: . . ."

    If you are unable to understand that Christ is God too, you stated your reasons. It is my understanding that Ephesians 5:5 can be understood that it says "the Christ and God." Meaning Christ to be God too.
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2021
    Messages:
    333
    Ratings:
    +42
    Religion:
    Christian (Baptist)
    Well the LORD God appeared to Abraham, Genesis 12:7, "And the LORD appeared unto Abram, . . ." And again, Genesis 17:1, ". . . the LORD appeared to Abram, . . ." Jesus claimed, John 8:56, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." And we are told in John 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." John 14:6.
     
  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,225
    Ratings:
    +2,309
    I remember in high school English the teacher when stressing the word "AND" is a conjunction word.
    So, Ephesians 5:5 saying in the kingdom of the Christ 'AND' of God is speaking about two, and not one.
    At 1 Corinthians 11:3 who is the head of Christ but God. God is head over Jesus.
    We can't know the mind of God according to 1 Corinthians 2:16.
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,879
    Ratings:
    +6,540
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I do understand what a physical body is, I just do not believe that Jesus was raised in a physical body that walked around town, as it says in the gospel stories. IF Jesus was seen, it was His spiritual body that was seen.
    What Paul wrote is right on the money. I picked the most pertinent verses from the chapter because that helps to see it clearer. Our dying bodies will be transformed into bodies that will never die. Our transformed bodies will be spiritual bodies. Paul says that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God and that means they cannot exist in heaven. When Paul says these dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever, he is referring to the spiritual world (heaven), which will last forever.

    1 Corinthians 15:35-58 New Living Translation

    40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

    44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

    50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.


    You said: "Jesus' physical body is flesh and bone less the blood, so longer flesh and blood."

    But Paul said: "our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever."
    In other words these dying bodies cannot live forever and go to heaven (the Kingdom of God).

    You said: "A spiritual body not a spirit."

    I agree that Jesus had what we will all have after we die, a spiritual body, not a spirit. that means the body will take on some kind of form.

    “The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

    “The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    In case you are interested I have posted my interpretation of many of the verses in 1 Corinthians 15 to other Christians on this forum.

    1 Corinthians 15:12-26
    #291 Trailblazer

    1 Corinthians 15:35-58
    #515 Trailblazer
     
  6. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    3,462
    Ratings:
    +752
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Yeah, this is not an improvement. It's completely indecipherable.
     
  7. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    3,462
    Ratings:
    +752
    Religion:
    Atheist
    No. Messengers of God are not evidence for God, since you have no way of verifying their claims. Any idiot can claim to be the messenger of some imaginary deity. If someone claims to be the messenger of Thor, would you consider this to be evidence that Thor is real? Of course not.

    Yeah, and they all boil down to "Don't be a jerk." We hardly need a God to tell us that.

    And how is that mutually exclusive? Mutually exclusive means there is more than one option, and they contradict each other.

    So, if you are claiming that the messages from different ages are mutually exclusive, then they would need to be contradictory. And yet you've said the spiritual teachings are essentially the same. That's not mutually exclusive.

    So either you don't actually know what mutually exclusive means, or you're wrong.

    You don't have any actual evidence for which the only possible explanation is God.

    Good for you.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,879
    Ratings:
    +6,540
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Logically speaking, just because we cannot verify their claims, that does not mean they are not Messengers of God. That is just what YOU WANT, to be able to verify their claims, but an omnipotent God who created the heavens and the earth does not give a twit about what you want. God only does what He wants and chooses to do so God does not care if the claims of His Messengers are verifiable.
    No, there is a lot more than that written in a revelation from God.
    Where did I say that the religions are mutually exclusive? Religions are only mutually exclusive in the minds of their followers.
    Sorry but no. I did not say the messages of the religions are mutually exclusive, I only said they are different. Just because the messages are different that does not mean they are mutually exclusive or contradictory. Rather, the messages build upon each other, each former message leading up to and preparing us for the next message. It is kind of like grade school arithmetic prepares us for high school calculus and high school calculus prepares us for an advanced math degree in college.
    No I don’t have any evidence for which the only possible explanation for you would be God, but I do have evidence for which the only possible explanation for me is God. I hope you understand what I mean.
     
  9. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2006
    Messages:
    3,462
    Ratings:
    +752
    Religion:
    Atheist
    But if they're not verifiable, we can't actually be sure, and we can't claim it to be absolute fact, can we?

    Mere details. That doesn't change the fact that there is nothing in the Bible or any other religious text that could not possibly have come from an extra-human source. There's no descriptions of nuclear physics or anything. And whenever anyone says there is, they are just creatively interpreting particular passages.

    In post 282, where you said, "There is a very logical explanation for the fact that the claims of religions are mutually exclusive but it's late now so I don't have time to explain it."

    Yeah, you did. You literally said, "There is a very logical explanation for the fact that the claims of religions are mutually exclusive but it's late now so I don't have time to explain it."

    If you are now claiming that they aren't, it makes no sense. It's like the guy on trial saying he had a very good reason for murdering his wife, and then trying to say he didn't do it.

    Yes, I understand perfectly what you mean.

    You have subjective opinion.

    Unfortunately, opinions are not facts, and opinions are worthless when it comes to knowing the truth of the world.
     
  10. soulsurvivor

    soulsurvivor Active Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2010
    Messages:
    383
    Ratings:
    +150
    People with physical bodies on Earth that are immortal ! I think there my be an overpopulation problem eventually!

    But thanks for the information. I had no idea that this was a belief! Is it specific to your denomination or do a substantial portion of Christians believe in this physical resurrection on Earth with bodies that last forever?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,879
    Ratings:
    +6,540
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    Obviously Christians who believe this never thought this through.
    I know Jehovah's Witnesses hold this belief and there might be other Christians that hold it, but most Christians believe they go to heaven after they die although they don't all agree upon what kind of body they will have in heaven.
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,879
    Ratings:
    +6,540
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I never claimed it is absolute fact. It is a fact to me because I know it is true, but it is not actually a fact according to the definition of a fact.

    fact: something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:

    fact
    It is not only possible but known that what is in the Bible was not written by an extra-human source. It was written by men who people believe were inspired by God. No Messengers of God ever wrote their own scriptures, except the Bab and Baha’u’llah.
    That’s right, the claims of the religious followers are mutually exclusive, but the claims are not the same as the religions that were originally revealed by the Messengers, since the followers distort what those Messengers taught over time.
    I just explained that above. The claims of the religious followers are mutually exclusive, but the claims are not the same as the religions that were originally revealed by the Messengers, since the followers distort what those Messengers taught over time.
    There are plenty of facts about the Baha’i Faith that can be proven but everyone will have their own subjective interpretation of those facts. Some people will see these facts as absolute proof that Baha’u’llah was a Messenger of God and the religion is true and other people will blow these facts off as nothing.
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2021
    Messages:
    333
    Ratings:
    +42
    Religion:
    Christian (Baptist)
    I agree, except for a rule in Greek grammar that makes an exception as found in Ephesians 5:5, ". . . του χριστου και θεου." So it has been translated as ". . . of the Christ and God." Meaning Christ being God. Known as the Granville Sharp's Rule.
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2021
    Messages:
    333
    Ratings:
    +42
    Religion:
    Christian (Baptist)
    As I believe, I stated, the translation "physical" body is a mistranslation. I will add, mistranslated by non-Christians, this from my understanding what Christians are to believe. The Greek being translated "physical" is from the Greek word which by itself is translated "life" or "soul." The NIV and NASB as in the KJV translated it as a "natural" body. ψυχικον meaning "natural" from ψυχη meaning "life" or "soul." The soul is not physical. The body is animated by the soul being in the flash by way of the blood, Leviticus 17:11.

    You have made it clear how you understand this matter.
     
  15. Nivek001

    Nivek001 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2021
    Messages:
    182
    Ratings:
    +9
    Religion:
    Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
     
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2017
    Messages:
    22,879
    Ratings:
    +6,540
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    What you said above IS how I understand this matter. :);)
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,225
    Ratings:
    +2,309
    I find the word 'and ' is a conjunction word, so, of the Christ ' and ' God shows two instead of one.

    Christ is King of God's Kingdom for a thousand years. Jesus does Not hand back the kingdom to himself - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26

    I also find the word ' and ' at 1 Corinthians 8:6

    At Psalms 110 there are two (2) LORD/Lords mentioned.
    KJV uses all Upper-Case letters for LORD (God) where the Tetragrammaton appears.
    The other Lord, in some lower-case letters, stands for Jesus - No Tetragrammaton there.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,225
    Ratings:
    +2,309
    We don't find that ' eternal life ' or ' everlasting life ' has to equate with being immortal.
    Adam was never offered immortal life (death-proof life) but everlasting life on Earth ( IF he kept God's Law )
    When we read Genesis 1:28 people were only to reproduce until Earth was full, Earth was populated, Not over full, Not over populated.
    In other words, God's purpose is that reproduction would stop at some point here on Earth when Earth was considered populated.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2009
    Messages:
    14,225
    Ratings:
    +2,309
    First, Jesus cautioned that there are both genuine 'wheat' Christians and fake 'weed/tares' Christians - Matthew 13:24-30
    'Christendom' (so-called Christian) as far as I know doesn't usually teach about a physical resurrection.
    I was only taught about a heavenly resurrection, even though I did Not feel worthy to go to heaven and wanted to stay here.
    So, I wondered how could the humble meek people inherit the Earth as Jesus promised at Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11,29.
    I liked what Jehovah's Witnesses showed me in the Bible, and to me it made more sense that most people will be here on Earth .
    - www.jw.org
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    4,630
    Ratings:
    +194
    Religion:
    spiritualist
    Irrational.

    Science history. Chosen.

    Chosen by humans as one mind agreement. Yet owned multi same male life agreeing with thoughts

    Today two forms scientists. Religious and origin science theists.

    Arguing over a human choice.

    Warning destroyer human mentality.

    Choice to agree or disagree.

    Choice.

    Science any status not involved in choice.

    Choice to think first. Natural presence existed owned no choice.

    Teaching consciousness versus lying.

    Original theist thought about big bang strings from sun attack conversion of earth mass.

    Science state how to convert natural to gain a lower destroyed form.

    Science itself always used sun and earth presence in thesis to convert earth mass. Science human chosen.

    Science human uses earths products to own science.

    Warning use of words to coerce by stories and belief.

    Cult control. The group.

    Origin human science moment return. Theism convert earth big bang. Not religious themes. Just space converting themes. Origin of science.

    Does a human own space emptiness. When nothing existed as absolute nothing.....no.

    Does that state exist. Yes.

    Science infers reasons to irradiating in space which is not complete nothing.

    Infers when a human did not exist.

    Animals owning same heavenly body one answer today. When a human never existed animals using same heavens do.
    A deceased human the other answer.
    No human thesis.

    To say nothing of a human. Which in no thinking owns nothing itself as as status nothing. As you aren't thinking about a topic. To be a non human was never nothing itself.

    Lying reviewed. True science status.

    God O earth scientist said earth always existed for scientific status.

    After ice age theism was about God and earth womb. Space and heavens. Proof not original human theist.

    Proof not origins of first science space and sun. As a real womb is human mother owned. Cannot use words unless inferred pre existing status

    Natural original father human after ice age not the scientist.

    Developed male human DNA life thoughts in cooling developing mass gas was theist modern times. Heavens as a body returned me as male status.

    Knows mass gas hotter in past. Knew father human lesser DNA body. Reason.

    Part of owning awareness to theory.

    However infers falsely to ice mass coldest past. As if ice made earth life coldest lesser body. In life form natural.

    Heavens not ice mass was hot gases as gas status only cooling. Ice assisted gases to remass to natural past cooling. Heavens returned.

    So he lies about what ice meant. In science thesis.

    Reason spatial changing irradiating body owning heavens.

    Time shift never existed.

    Thesis Phi says when God mass present no longer existed in heavens. After conversion. To own science wisdom itself. God already shifted naturally when man self never existed. Was gone.

    Status word use totality of reasoning itself.

    Mind looked back to where physical human form never existed. To own Phi reasoning.

    Thesis time shift.

    Fake.

    O mass God earth circle not Phi.

    Theism science maths. Man human false preacher. False prophet. Self destroyer warning. Egotism.

    Talks about natural animal form when you are a natural whole human. One of the false prophets.

    False prophet is the false human preaching.
    Another false prophet hell in space.

    Earth O God hell is volcanic owned by stone seal. Was nowhere else.

    Religious idealism science.

    Origin science theist big sun bang destroyer copier of earthin attack as God in all themes is human taught attacked by sun blasting earth.

    Theism calculation radiation Phi mass to achieve his God removal. When physical God no longer existed

    As it always existed first as mass stone.

    Reason why the immaculate coldest highest gas spirit evolution burst into flames.

    The teaching.

    The sun did it. Took away earths heavenly highest spirit form.

    Sun therefore already had changed earths highest gas spirit.

    The warning. To human self. Don't allow science by human choice to do it again.
     
Loading...