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Featured For Christians ... a question I've had for a long time

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Vinayaka, Feb 13, 2021.

  1. 37818

    37818 Active Member

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    The "original sin" was the cause for mankind to be sinful. Mankind are sinful do to there own sins. Romans 5:12-13, Deuteronomy 24:16.

    John 5:19, ". . . Jesus and said unto them, . . ."
    John 5:28-29, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
    As per Revelation 20:11-15. Revelation 21:7-8.
     
  2. Nivek001

    Nivek001 Member

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    What does your general definition of “sons of God” have to do with your claim that the angels God punished were individuals who were born and were around at the time if the great flood and who also also Jesus preached to between his death and resurrection?

    Where is the connection between the angels as described in Luke 8;30,31 or 2Peter 2, or Revelation 20 with the same spirits Jesus preached to in their prison state between Jesus’s death and resurrection as opposed to being Satan’s angels who were not shown to ever having been born in the first place as shown in Revelation 12?

    How do you get that to be made alive according to the spirit meant that the spirit and the body were never together when according you like the “unto dust one returns to God so does the spirit”? To be made alive according to the spirit according to you means one never existed as a spirit until death, so there would be no returning of the spirit.

    HOW does Ecclesiastes 12 show that there could not be any spirts that would exist in a prison state, especially since Peter did say that there were spirts that were in a prison state according to 1Peter 3:18-20? If the spirit does not roam anywhere would indicate that such a spirit has restrictions kind of like a prisoner can’t just roam anywhere.

    Thete is nothing to indicate in Job 27 that in order for Job to have the spirit of God in his nostrils Job could not also have his spirit in his physical body as well. There is nothing saying that Job’ was not big enough for the both of them spirits.

    30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth. (Psalms 104:30 KJV). Where is it shown that “ they are created” cannot mean both spirit and body?

    Isaiah 42 showing about God giving breath and spirit to those who walk in it would mean that God united spirit and body together when they walk the Earth. That means when death comes the spirit continues on separated from the body they were once tied to by God. The scriptures you cited do show that the spirit and the body are tied together during our life in mortality.

    Also,
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5 KJV)
    How can go about to be born of the spirit in this life if one does not become alive in the spirit until after being dead physically?

    26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: (Job 19:26 KJV)

    HOW do you figure that means only that Job had confidence that after he closed his eyes, he would be like a old dried up stump of a tree in the ground, nesting until he gets a scent of water to be reviewed, and grow into a new tree?

    That verse talks about Job rotting away. His physical body being destroyed, and then he states that in the flesh he shall see God. Not in the spirit only or in a new spiritual body but in the flesh. The words “new” and “spirit” were not used, but the words “...in the flesh...” we’re used.

    How do you figure that resurrection is not with the physical body when Jesus brought his apostles to him to handle him showing he had a body of flesh and bone and even ate food with his apostles as shown in Luke 24?
     
    #222 Nivek001, Feb 16, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2021
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I do not believe Adam and Ever were the cause. I believe that man is born good but man sins because he has a lower nature as well as a higher nature and free will, so he can choose to follow either nature.

    “In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60
    I believe that those verses refer to those who will hear the Voice of God through Baha'u'llah, who was the resurrection and the life. Jesus was saying that the hour is coming when His Spirit will return in the Person of Baha'u'llah, and those who are in their graves, the spiritually dead, will arise to spiritual life whereas the spiritually dead who remain asleep in their graves or those who have done evil will not have spiritual life.

    “It hath been demonstrated and definitely established, through clear evidences, that by “Resurrection” is meant the rise of the Manifestation of God to proclaim His Cause....” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 170

    “At the time of the appearance and manifestation of the rays of the Daystar of Truth, all occupy the same station. God then proclaimeth that which He willeth, and whoso heareth His call and acknowledgeth His truth is accounted among the inhabitants of Paradise. Such a soul hath traversed the Bridge, the Balance, and all that hath been recorded regarding the Day of Resurrection, and hath reached his destination. The Day of God’s Revelation is the Day of the most great Resurrection. We cherish the hope that, quaffing from the choice wine of divine inspiration and the pure waters of heavenly grace, thou mayest attain the station of discovery and witnessing, and behold, both outwardly and inwardly, all that which thou hast mentioned.”
    The Tabernacle of Unity, pp. 62- 63
     
  4. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    you have it wrong
     
  5. Nivek001

    Nivek001 Member

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    And your proof that I have it wrong is?
     
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  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    In fact, you have it so wrong, its hard to know where to start to unravel that gross misunderstanding.

    The "sons of God" are angels. Any who are born of God directly are "sons of God". Those humans who will rule with Christ in heaven, are "born again" so these are given a 'new birth' directly by God's spirit to become his "adopted" spirit "sons".
    Adam was a "son of God" because he was a direct creation, not born of a woman.

    "Sons of God" are NOT those born born of human mothers. Therefore the "sons of God" who noticed the beautiful daughters of human women (Genesis ch 6) were materialized rebel angels. These had children born to them who were the cause of much violence and licentiousness in the days prior to the flood. Their presence on earth was the catalyst for what God did to get rid of them.

    When the flood caused the deaths of all those monstrous children who had no right to live, and all who were influenced by them at that time, their angelic fathers dematerialized and returned to the spirit realm because they did not have a physical anchor to remain on earth. The only material thing in existence then, was the arc and God's protection was on that and its precious cargo.

    When they returned to the spirit realm they were put under restraint because there is no mention of them ever materializing again....but God's faithful angels continued to do so. Abraham was visited by three of them who ate and drank and accepted his hospitality. (Genesis ch 18)
    Gabriel materialized as a strong man when giving God's instructions to Daniel and he did so again when he visited Mary to announce the birth of Jesus. No wings. Do we really think that angels need wings to fly?

    Satan's angels were not born....they materialized and they had bad motives for doing so...to enjoy the pleasures of the flesh...something angels were not able to do in spirit form.

    Faithful angels (messengers) who were visiting God's servants on earth always materialized because it was forbidden in God's law to communicate with spirits. That way an angelic visitation was assuredly from God because the demons could no longer appear as men. The only way to communicate with those deceptive spirits was through those who could summon them...those forbidden to do so in God's law. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

    There is no spirit before birth or after death because the "spirit" in man is not in and of itself, an entity. Our spirit is our what sustains our life by breathing. Adam was not a soul until be breathed. When the breath leaves the body the soul dies. (Ezekiel 18:4) A soul can only be returned to life by God in the resurrection....the recreation of our body and the restoration of the soul (person) with all its memories and personality traits will be achieved God giving a human back his breath. (spirit)

    Can you show me where it says in the Bible that spirits exist in heaven before they are born as humans on earth?
    Or that they return to God after their experience on earth?

    Yes, he had a materialized body when he showed himself to his apostles. The Bible says that he "appeared" to them, but they did not always recognize him. On one occasion, he disappears right before their eyes.....he was not in the body he had when he died. If you read the accounts, he did materialize a body with wounds so as to convince a doubting Thomas....but at other times the wounds, which would have been gaping and his flesh ripped to shreds after the flogging they gave him, were never mentioned. Why would God resurrect his son with painful wounds when Jesus himself was a healer? If Jesus laid down his life in sacrifice, how does God take that life and give it back to him without cancelling out the very reason it was given?

    How do you make any sense of your beliefs?
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I do not believe those were true stories, I believe they were myths. In other words, I do not believe that Jesus ever did what it says in those gospels.
    Paul said nothing about the Garden of Eden. The Fall of Adam bringing in physical death is a Christian doctrine that has been fed to you. Humans did not become mortal because Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they would have been mortal regardless. Christ is not going to fix the fact that God made our bodies mortal by raising you in a physical body, but you are free to believe that if you want to. The following is what I believe, how Christ made us all alive.

    Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?

    Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection. Some Answered Questions, p. 118
    The refining process of repenting and turning to God is the refining of our spirits, not refining our bodies.
    I agree with that.
    I do not know what you are referring to. I never said that.
    I do not believe there will be any 1,000 year reign of Jesus or any final judgment from Jesus because I do not believe Jesus is going to do anything more or return to Earth because Jesus said His work is finished and He was no more in the world. (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36)

    Any verses that refer to a 1,000 year reign or judgment refer to the return of Christ, who was called Baha'u'llah.
    You are making assumptions with nothing to base them on except how you interpret certain verses and put them together. Read what is says on this link about what Paul meant when he said that in Christ shall all be made alive:

    29: EXPLANATION OF VERSE TWENTY-TWO, CHAPTER FIFTEEN, OF THE FIRST EPISTLE OF ST. PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS
    The soul (spirit) of Jesus left His body immediately after He died and that will happen to everybody who dies. All that is explained in this paragraph:

    The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life

    421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351
    It is because you do not understand what Rev 20 means that I cannot explain it to you. It is symbolic, not literal. None of it is about dead bodies living again. The thousand years has nothing to do with Jesus.
    There is no resurrection of physical bodies, and Paul never said there was. Physical bodies are buried and the soul leaves the body and passes to the spiritual world (heaven) and takes on a spiritual body

    1 Corinthians 15:44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.
    What is messing you all up is your insistence that Jesus had a perfected physical body that rose from the grave. You will never understand any of this as long as you cling to that belief. You can always look for verses that you believe support beliefs you hold but they are applied out of context.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Why do Christians believe this stuff, kind of suspicious if you ask me, sounds to me like something is not right.....;) :rolleyes:

    If a Christian cannot convince a Christian that the "bodily" resurrection of Jesus was a sham, a Baha'i sure ain't gonna do it. :D :(
     
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  9. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Active Member

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    Well - taking the Resurrected body of the Lord Jesus Christ into account and what He did with it - it is possible for Resurrected Being to manipulate their bodies according to their desires - or rather the will of God.

    I believe this is true of those who participate in the Resurrection of the Just - or those who inherit bodies celestial - but I do not know if it also applies to those who will receive a lesser Resurrection.
     
  10. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You’re right, good reasoning!
    Another Scripture is Romans 5:12
    Also, keep in mind that God told Adam (who then relayed it to Eve), ‘If you eat from that (one) tree, then you’ll die.’
    If they had obeyed, they wouldn’t have died!
    The account reveals long ages for them after their rebellion, and the generations of descendants immediately following. Gradually, the longevity of their descendants farther on down, like Abraham who lived 175 years, on down to Joshua who lived 110. There was an Israelite priest, many generations past Joshua, in 2 Chronicles, name of Jehoiada, the account says he lived 130. There was a French woman recently (in the 1990’s), Jeanne Calment, who apparently died @ 122. A unique event.

    Anyways,
    What does that tell us? That imperfection is inherited.
     
    #230 Hockeycowboy, Feb 17, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
  11. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Hey KenS! Hope you’re well.
    Just a note on “new earth”: when we read Genesis 11:1, we can see how earth can mean people, society.
    That’s what we (JW’s) feel it means.(In this instance.)
    Because this planet Earth is beautiful! It just needs “cleaned up.”
    Revelation 11:18, last sentence.
     
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  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    We believe what is the truth from our scripture. You can believe whatever you wish.

    You said it .....Christ was raised as a spirit, not a human. He “appeared” to his apostles as a human because he materialised human form as other spirit beings had done before him. You think the angels that visited Abraham, Daniel and Mary were humans?

    I cannot for the life of me understand how Baha’i’s can pretend to accept Jesus, but deny what is written about him in our scripture.
     
    #232 Deeje, Feb 17, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
  13. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    No, I do not think we need science to negate the Bible. I do not dismiss the Bible because I think science has a better explanation for things. I dismiss the Bible on the numerous inconsistencies in it. But that's not the point of this discussion, so let's stick to the actual topic, shall we?
     
  14. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    I think it's far more reasonable that "heavens" in that passage means the skies rather than Human governments.
     
  15. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    You do not understand the burden of proof, do you?

    If Adam and Eve is just a story, then Jesus's sacrifice is nothing more than God sending himself to be sacrificed to himself to convince himself to forgive Humanity for the crimes of two people who never even existed.

    The bit about returning to dust doesn't seem to be referring to spiritual death, does it?
     
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  16. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Thanks, cousin. Doing very well. Hope you and yours are doing good too.

    OK... never heard that before. :)

    It certainly does need cleaning up and 1,000 years will probably do the trick.
     
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  17. Nivek001

    Nivek001 Member

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    How does you saying that the “Sons of God are NOT those born born of human mothers. PROVE that is the case?

    How does you simply saying “Therefore the "sons of God" who noticed the beautiful daughters of human women (Genesis ch 6) were materialized rebel angels. These had children born to them who were the cause of much violence and licentiousness in the days prior to the flood. Their presence on earth was the catalyst for what God did to get rid of them” PROVE that was the case?


    Where are you getting any of what you have posted?

    2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
    (Genesis 6:2 KJV)

    There is no distinction given other than the sons of God being anything other than just that. The sons of God, which that definition would fit any male human who was ever born on Earth. That also makes everything else you posted about regarding the “sons of God” come into question. Where are you getting that info from?

    Also, the “sons of God” in Genesis 6 do not show that they specifically received any punishment from God. All that chapter went through was that they took daughters of men and married them. There was nothing saying that was a wicked act. Also the chapter stated that God’s spirit shall not always strive with man. That is man in general which could be the children born of the daughters of men and the sons of God.

    7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
    Job 38:7 KJV

    The sons of God in that verse can also well mean any spirit male child of God as well since they could very well have been there before those spirits were born like as described in Jeremiah 1:5.

    How does you simply defining what Satan’s angels are have anything to with what I asked which was;

    Where is the connection between the angels as described in Luke 8;30,31 or 2Peter 2, or Revelation 20 with the same spirits Jesus preached to in their prison state between Jesus’s death and resurrection as opposed to being Satan’s angels who were not shown to ever having been born in the first place as shown in Revelation 12? How does you saying that what was described in Revelation 12 was just symbolic mean that what was described in Revelation 12 was only symbolic?

    What scripture states that Adam was not a soul or spirit until he breathed? How does you saying there is no spirit before or after death proof that it was taught in the Gospel that there is no soul or spirit before or after death? Once again you failed to address the point that Peter said that between his death and resurrection he actually did do something. He taught other spirits who like he at the time were not resurrected either physically or spiritually.

    5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
    (Jeremiah 1:5 KJV)

    How could God have known or sanctified Jeremiah before he was born if it’s Gospel that Jeremiah didn’t exist before he was born?

    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
    (Luke 23:43 KJV)

    Jesus said “To day”. Not on the third day. That means that BOTH Jesus and the thief on the cross Jesus was talking to had to exist between physical death and when Jesus was resurrected.

    How do the apostles not recognizing how Jesus was a changed person when he was resurrected prove that the resurrection was not physical? It was still Jesus and they handled Jesus’s resurrected physical body.

    Also where is the proof that a God with a physical body cannot disappear in front of others with that physical body?

    How does the point that Jesus’s crucified wound marks remained when resurrected prove he was not really resurrected physically? That doesn’t make any sense. Just because you don’t get why Jesus’s resurrected body still had the wounds marks does not mean it’s proof that it was never taught that Jesus had a resurrected physical body and that body still had wound marks.

    You pointed it out before that when the resurrected Jesus first appeared to those witnesses they did not recognize him at first. Apparently resurrection in a perfected state can change the look of a person. The wound marks are a way so that others can recognize just who this glorified person is.

    Where do you get that Jesus having his physical body back in his resurrection cancelled the very reason it was given?

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    (John 3:16 KJV)

    There is no distinction that defined everlasting life as being only spiritual, especially when in Luke 24 Jesus appeared to his apostles in a physical body.

    44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    (1Corinthians 15:44 KJV)

    There is nothing in that verse that a raised body was just spiritually exclusive. Again, pointing out Jesus appearing to his apostles in a physical body. Jesus had both his spiritual body and his physical one at the same time.

    Also, it’s the mortal natural body that Paul was referring to that was sown. That mortal natural body being corrupt and faulty. To be raised spiritually meant to be not of this world, which is mortal and messed up and is only into the physical.
     
    #237 Nivek001, Feb 17, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2021
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  18. Nivek001

    Nivek001 Member

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    And the basis for you believing they are myths is what? Is there proof that a God who wants us to rely on faith in him instead of relying on established evidence was never physically resurrected or are you just going off of your belief?

    How does Paul say nothing about Adam and what happened in the Garden of Eden prove that is the case when there is;

    22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1Corinthians 15:22 KJV)

    You going on about there being two natures in Adam does not preclude that the development of those natures occurred while in the Garden of Eden. While I don’t believe in original sin I do believe that what happened in the Garden of Eden with Adam did result in all of us physically dying and you going on about how that verse goes over two natures does not prove it has taught that humanity was not subject to physical death due to Adam.

    Why do you not believe there will be a 1,000 year reign? Where does it say that Jesus was finished with ALL of his work and therefore would be no more task to perform?

    The 1,000 year reign belief is not based on nothing that was taught especially when there details about it in Revelation. Why do you believe that the Book of Revelation is baseless?

    Why do you believe in your “Heaven and Hell” definition that the resurrection was only from one works of the physics to the spiritual when in Luke 24 Jesus had his disciples handle his resurrected physical body? Why do you believe the “Heaven and Hell” definition over what is given in the Gospel of Luke?

    26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
    Job 19:26 KJV

    I’m not understanding any of what you are BECAUSE you have not explained or provided anything that shows what you believe carries any more validity than what I believe. You just claim you believe what you believe and that’s all there is to it.

    Well, at least when it comes to why I believe what I believe also stems through with studying what I studied but I in addition try to apply what is taught in my life to see if it’s good and even seeking assuredness if what I have been learning and applying is true by asking God in prayer if it’s true.

    So then if there is a third party out there who wonders if what I claim to believe in is right there is one way for that third party to find out. That would be to try and do what I claimed and see first hand if the same assurance is given.
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, I can see why you say the skies....
    ....But the literal heavens of OLD (Noah's day) did 'Not perish' - 2 Peter 3:5-6
    The literal heavens of NOW (verse 7) reserved for fire is Not a literal fire, but as fire can purify some things.
    Not the literal skies passing away (verse 10) but corrupted 'works' burnt up, so to speak, as fire can also destroy.
    So, it is symbolic of corrupted governmental rule or the 'works' of ungodly society. - Isaiah 26:21
    Please notice who is removed or taken out as per Isaiah 13:9.
    So, the NEW heavens and earth (2 Peter 3:13) is purified in that only righteousness will dwell.
     
  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Except for Christ, ALL the resurrections were: physical ones.
    To me the word "it" is a neuter and Not a person ( Not physical or spirit (angel) person )
    So, the spirit (it) that returns to God who gave "it" simply goes back (returns) to God.
    When something is returned it does Not have to mean resurrected or go up to heaven.
    Rather, like a foreclosed house does Not move or go anywhere but is simply returned to the hands of the owner.
    So, at death any future life prospect now lies in God's safe hands til Resurrection Day (meaning Jesus' 1,000 year day)
    Heaven for some like those of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18. Earth for the majority of people - John 3:13
     
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