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Featured For Christians ... a question I've had for a long time

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Vinayaka, Feb 13, 2021.

  1. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I agree, the Kingdom is spiritual. It’s rule, though, will encompass the entire universe, including this Earth (right now the site of rebellion against God.)
    Remember Revelation 21:3...(The tent of God is with mankind.} Really the fulfillment of the Lord’s Prayer...”Thy will be done on Earth.”

    I don’t believe that, either. Our spirit “goes out” at death.We “return to the ground”. Psalms 146:3-4; Genesis 3:19

    That is why the Resurrection is so important...so that the dead can live again! The Resurrection is future, you know, John 6:40; Acts of the Apostles 24:15...”there is going to be....”
     
  2. Tiberius

    Tiberius Well-Known Member

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    The need to return to the ground was part of the punishment.

    Can you provide a verse that says otherwise?

    Yeah, you run into problems when you try to make the Bible match up with reality.

    Do you have a verse to support that claim?
     
  3. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You’re making a good point, as if you’ve reasoned on this. I mean, your understanding of the situation provides the reason for Jesus’ ransom sacrifice.

    But you are an atheist, right? Do you feel science has negated the Bible?

    Keep in mind, suppositions (even in science) are not facts; just interpretations of facts.
     
    #183 Hockeycowboy, Feb 15, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
  4. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Where is he now? Did he die? Why.
     
  5. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    :) We are in one accord!

    Of course, this is my perspective. I may hold on to my perspective (when we disagree on interpretation) but I am always cognizant that no one knows everything and Jesus will set us straight (or we will just know better) in the resurrection.

    We (as in the group we belong to), believe that the "dead" that is spoken of here is a spiritual separation from God. When Jesus "wounded for our transgression and bruised from our iniquities" and "bare our sins on the cross" he was separated from God even as Adam was separated when he sinned. He was put to "death in the flesh"

    When Jesus resurrected from the dead, he became "alive in the spirit" and was the "first born from the dead" - death being separated from the Spirit of God. Thus, again, after he was resurrected and rejoined to the glory that he one had with God he became the "firstborn among the dead".

    As he said "I am the life, the truth" et al, the power within him is now a life-giving spirit in the sense that He how gives life to our spirits when we give our lives to Jesus Christ.

    As we stand in the flesh... we are still "born-again" by his life giving spirit. We are those who afterward gave our lives and are in his presence.

    :) Not that I don't want to venture as long as we understand that I am not dogmatic about the position and we are just thinking of possibilities. "now we see as in a glass darkly"

    All matter has energy. There is a pulsating wave in all objects (God spoke and it was created) - words are wave-lengths as is light.

    So all matter has energy. :) Not sure where you want to go with this :)

    When I said "Are the resurrected bodies of humans physically that can manifest spiritual? Definite maybe! " what I mean is that there is a possibility that Jesus does have a physical body, yet spiritual. This is where I said that the higher law of lift can supersede the law of gravity. When Jesus was take to the clouds in front of all the witnesses... the possibility is that he is still physical but has a spiritual capacity that can supersede the natural.

    Or, on a more specific example, when Jesus said "Whether to forgive sins or say to this man 'take up your bed and walk" and strength came into his legs... the spiritual superseded the natural.



    In other words... angels are spirits yet can manifest physical bodies (Jacob wrestling - Abraham talking to angels who took out Lot and his immediate family)

    So... regardless... the new bodies we receive IMV will be eternal bodies.

    So enjoyed this... thank you! :)
     
  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    If 2 Peter 3:5-6 was about the literal heavens then that would include the spirit heaven (God's home) and be long gone in Noah's day.
    Why would God destroy his heavenly home, that would Not make sense.
    Earth is still here since Noah's day. If the physical heavens were gone we would Not be here.
    In Bible speak, so to speak, governments are above in the sense of ruling over; they are governmental heavens.
    Governmental heavens in that man has wrongly governed over man to man's hurt, man's injury - Ecclesiastes 8:9
    The OLD system ( Noah's day )
    The NOW system ( from Noah's day to our day )
    The NEW system ( thousand-year governmental reign of Christ over Earth )
    Just as the heavens and earth were Not destroyed in Noah's day, but were ' washed ' clean.
    Jesus, in the clean governmental heavens, will ' wash ' earth clean by removing any dirt in this corrupted system.
    This is why we are all invited to pray the invitation of Rev. 22:20 for Jesus to come !
    Come and undo all the damage Satan and corrupted humanity has done so that we will see an earth as described in Isaiah 35th chapter.
     
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  7. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Please notice that Matthew 27:50-52 takes place ' before ' Jesus was resurrected.
    So, those bodies were just exposed corpses because of the earthquake. Remember: No one resurrected before Jesus - Colossians 1:18
    Verse 53 does Not say who are the ' and ' came out of the graves ' after ' Jesus' resurrection ( days later ).
    The ' and ' would be living people who came out of the cemetery (grave yard) who went into the city where many people saw them.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Can you provide a verse that says physical death WAS part of the punishment? Below are all the pertinent verses which explain the punishments. After explaining all the punishments, God closes with this:

    Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.

    Please note that God never said that physical death was part of the punishment, God only said that they would return to the ground because that is where they came from.

    Genesis 3:12-19 New International Version

    12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

    13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

    The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

    14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

    “Cursed are you above all livestock
    and all wild animals!
    You will crawl on your belly
    and you will eat dust
    all the days of your life.
    15 And I will put enmity
    between you and the woman,
    and between your offspring[i] and hers;
    he will crush[j] your head,
    and you will strike his heel.”

    16 To the woman he said,

    “I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
    with painful labor you will give birth to children.
    Your desire will be for your husband,
    and he will rule over you.”

    17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

    “Cursed is the ground because of you;
    through painful toil you will eat food from it
    all the days of your life.
    18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
    and you will eat the plants of the field.
    19 By the sweat of your brow
    you will eat your food
    until you return to the ground,
    since from it you were taken;
    for dust you are
    and to dust you will return.”
    That's true for if you interpret the Bible literally you cannot make it match up with reality, whcih is why I do not interpret Genesis literally and why I believe that Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden was just a story that has spiritual signification.
    Do you have any verses that the punishment for Adam and Eve was physical death, which they never would have known if they had not disobeyed God? It was just assumed by Christians that death meant physical death and doctrines were formed which were believed from that time forward. Anyone who uses logic and common sense would know that physical death was and will always be necessary because no new life could be born if nobody ever died since that would lead to overpopulation. Christians say that physical death was never part of God's Plan but of course physical death was always part of God's Plan, and that is why we have mortal bodies. :rolleyes:

    I am sure I could find verses but I am kind of on the run right now, but regarding the Tree of Life, the Bible says:

    It is a tree of life to all who grasp it, and whoever holds on to it is happy; its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all it paths are peace. (Proverbs 3:17-18)

    Being happy and at peace and pleasantness are about spiritual life, not about physical life.
     
  9. Nivek001

    Nivek001 Member

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    What kind of a question is when Jesus died was he dead or alive? That doesn’t make any sense. If there is a question about whether one is dead or alive one would not have claimed with certainty that someone even died in the first place.

    Also yes, your last question is confusing as well. Are you asking whether I believe Jesus was not dead after he died to mean are you asking if I believe he was raised from the dead or was resurrected?

    It is my belief that Jesus did die and on the third day from the day he died he was risen from the dead or was resurrected. I also believe he appeared to some of his disciples including the eleven remaining apostles.
     
  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    But of course there are verses in the Bible that are talking about physical graves in the ground, but that was not the context of what we were discussing.

    Hockeycowboy said: I'm sorry, @Trailblazer , but the Bible never mentions 'graves of spiritual ignorance'. That's reading into the text what isn't there.

    Trailblazer said: I am sorry but the Bible never mentions physical graves in the ground. That's reading into the text what isn't there.

    We were talking about being asleep in the grave. The Bible does not say that anyone is asleep in the physical graves in the ground.

    #97 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 2:48 PM
     
    #190 Trailblazer, Feb 15, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Baha'u'llah died of a slight fever which grew steadily over the following days and then finally resulted in his death.
    Baha'u'llah is in heaven at the Right Hand of God, with Jesus.
     
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I believe that each of us gets a newly created immortal body that resembles the body we had here on earth, except with all imperfections removed. I once read a great little book by a non-LDS Christian writer whose explanation pretty closely mirrors my own understanding. He said,

    "The point is that people don't lose their identify when they go to heaven. And that includes their physical identity. If you have brown eyes now, you're taking those brow eyes with you to heaven. If you're a redhead now, you'll be a redhead in heaven. If you are white, black, or yellow now, you'll have that coloring in heaven. If you have a mole on your left cheek now, ou'll have one on your left cheek in heaven too.

    But what if I hate the way I look now, you say? What if there are things about my body that I want to change -- that I need to change -- if I am boing to be perfectly happy in heaven? Do you mean I have to stay the way I am now for all eternity? Absolutely not!

    You have to trust God just a little bit. He knows better than you what is wrong with your body and how it should be fixed so that you will be happiest in heaven."


    Personally, I don't believe any of us will be crippled or deformed in any way. I think the way we will look is probably as we would imagine our best self, while still being entirely recognizable to those who knew and loved us on earth.
     
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  13. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    I don't accept your POV.
    And the earth cannot last forever, it's designed to change through evolution, the sun dying,
    the stars vanishing, even the atoms decaying.
    Who wants to live in this old world. I don't. Neither does the heavenly host we read of - are
    they too going to come down to this earth with its gravity, age, moth, rust, heat and cold etc..?
     
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  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    According to Baha'u'llah, when we die and go to the spiritual world (heaven) we will take on a form that best befits our immortality, what we are worthy of having.

    “The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

    I do not believe that form will be a physical form but rather it will be a spiritual form, because I do not believe there is anything physical in the spiritual world (heaven).

    “The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

    I do believe we will retain our individual identity, our person-hood, which is tied to our soul, not tied to our body.
    I do not believe that we will take any of our ailments or disfigurations with us to the spiritual world (heaven) because those ailments are all associated with our physical body, and when it no longer exists they will be no more. Moreover, any mental or emotional illness that was associated with brain function will not go with us since we will not have a brain anymore. What will go with are the spiritual attributes that we have acquired during this life on Earth, our qualities of character.

    I believe that we will definitely be recognizable to those who knew us, but they will recognize our new form and what emanates from it, not our physical body. I agree that it will be our best self, which will consist of the spiritual attributes I mentioned above.

    Beyond all that, the spiritual world (heaven) remains a complete mystery. I think that is the real reason why some Christians such as JWs believe that they will live forever on Earth after they die and rise from their graves is because Earth is what they are familiar with, and who wants to go to some unknown dimension? :eek: I admit is is scary to me but I am not going to live a fantasy just because I do not like reality. I mean Jesus was clear on where we will be going.

    John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
     
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  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Not to worry, nobody will continue to live in this world after they die, Christians will go to heaven as Jesus promised.

    John 14:2-3 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
     
  16. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    And don’t forget the angels in Sodom. They also ate there, too.
    ( Genesis 19:3)

    Not only does this give credence to Jesus, after his resurrection as a spirit, could also materialize into human form and still go through walls & doors....
    But also accept that the Bible is referring to the sons of God in Genesis 6:1-4, as angels able to materialize.

    It being an historical reality explains the common thread found in ancient disparate myths, including Hindu, Norse, Greek, etc., of the gods coming down to have sex w/ human females & producing offspring.

    Aren’t we glad Jehovah stopped them!
     
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  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    No one knows everything, is true, but I don't believe the scriptures were recorded to put on a shelf and say, we can't know what its writings reveal. I believe what's recorded for us, at 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 Alll scripture is God breathed, and beneficial for teaching... for setting things straight... So that the man of God may be ... completely equipped for every good work.

    So I believe what is writen, is not arbitrary, nor so difficult that it calls for debates that are inconclusive. I believe that the "my interpretation your interpretation" argument is really a Devil inspired design - one of his crafty designs (not directing this at you, but expressing the way I see it).
    I see Satan sitting back and saying, "As. My seeds have grown nicely. Job well accomplished."
    The way I see it, these scriptures, are not written for nothing. 2 Corinthians 4:3, 4 ; 1 Timothy 4:1, 2

    Evidently, the reason for the hundreds of diverse teaching, on very basic - from what I can see - teachings, is not a matter of mistaken ideas. The confusing exists because Satan is a liar - the father of the lie, the Bible says, and he hasn't stopped lying.
    In fact he lies even moreso today, and he has more agents to use - Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works. (2 Corinthians 11:14, 15)

    Think about it Ken. If Satan has not left the scene, why should we think that we are all on the same ship, traveling in the same direction, to the same destination... Or as some put it, different roads leading to the same destination?
    Would that not be the same as saying, Satan isn't very powerful at all. Nor crafty... which is opposite to what Jesus said?
    Sorry for that rant , but I think it's important we consider that. :)

    From reading the scriptures, it's evident to me that we can know the things we are discussing here, because they are written.
    I agree with Martin Luther, who realized how easy it was for persons to apply a symbolic meaning to anything in scripture. In that way, the scriptures can mean anything one wants it to mean, as Atheists put it.

    I believe that while symbolism is used in scripture, there are obvious markers where they do not apply... but who am I... :) Like you said, Jesus will sort that out.
    The only thing about that is, if Armageddon comes and finds us on the wrong path the resurrection won't be our reward.
    That's what I understand from scripture.
    Feel free to express what you disagree with, as I am sure there is much. :)

    I was asking someone earlier, how they arrive at their conclusions.
    Do you think we should just state ideas without any scripture that says what we think Ken?
    If we are teaching, which we are to use scripture to do, how can we do so by saying something but having no scripture that agrees?
    Let's suppose you were saying what you just said to a group of youth, and they ashed you, "Where in the Bible does it say Christ was separated from God?" What would you say to them?
    Remember, most people don't just want to hear, "I said it." or "I am the pastor." or "I believe it." :)

    I never read any of that Ken. I would like to see wher you read it though. :)

    This is all what you are saying Ken. We do hear a lot of pastors on radio, television... all preaching, and saying all sorts of things... but what does the Bible actually say?

    No Biggy. Nothing important. I was just wondering what you thought. It's not written - No details are given. :)

    Why do you think that Jesus' body was physical?

    Why do you think so?

    Yes. So is there any reason why you don't think that Jesus was raised spirit, as the scriptures say, and manifested different physical bodies... as the scripture show, he appeared in multiple bodies - at least four - on different occasions?

    The scriptures does say that those who have the heavenly calling will have spirit bodies that are immortal - eternal - in the heavens. 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 ; 1 Peter 1:3, 4 ; 1 Corinthians 15:53

    Great! I hope we can continue that way. :)
     
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  18. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Ephesians 1:10, NLT....
    “And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth.”

    Nothing is wrong with this Earth, just some people on it.
    There are too many Scriptures, dealing with this Earth (planet) being renewed. Under Christ’s rule, peace will prevail along with all areas of the planet receiving blessings. Even the deserts... Isaiah 35 1,2, 5-7. And the ‘tops of mountains’... Psalms 72:16.

    This is our home...Psalms 115:16.
     
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  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    That's what I am thinking too.
    So you didn't answer some important questions.
    If Jesus is dead for three days, how can he do anything... like visit spirits in prison, before he is resurrected?

    Okay good. I believe that as well, because it's what we read in scripture.
    So what do you mean by... 1Peter 3:18-20 described Jesus between his physical death and resurrection where he continued to act as a spirit and preached to other spirits who apparently were also active as spirts otherwise they couldn’t have been preached to by Jesus.?

    Would that not be the same as saying Jesus died, but he didn't die, so while dead, he preached?
     
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  20. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    What about the snakes? Could a heavenly being be bitten by one?
     
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