Female Muslims... please explain

[Aquitaine]

This is just crazy.

Judging from my own experiences, my mom was the one worked, raised us, and yes I lived in a household with a dad who not only drank but didn't work. My mom finally divorced him and took care of us single handedly and did a great job I think. My sister is going through the same stuff with her husband, he doesn't work, drinks and isn't great with taking care of the kids. I just cannot even fathom women being "lower" than men or a woman being that of a child.

You'll have to excuse me but this just makes me angry like so many other excuses I've seen for the abuse of women even in this culture. But a culture that actually believes in a fallic argument about women. Now I know how a black guy would feel if he were to go on a forum and see the same opinions given to him back in the day of slavery.

Aye, it's sad really isn't it? Personally I believe it's the desperate attempts of mysogynistic societies trying to retain their power over Women culturally. Infusing such mysogyny into religion only makes it 10x worse, since it seems you're never allowed to criticize religion.

Oddly enough though from what I've seen on RF atleast, a lot of the supporters of this stuff are themselves female! It's like a bizarre willfull submission.

 

[MissAlice]

Aye, it's sad really isn't it? Personally I believe it's the desperate attempts of mysogynistic societies trying to retain their power over Women culturally. Infusing such mysogyny into religion only makes it 10x worse, since it seems you're never allowed to criticize religion.

Oddly enough though from what I've seen on RF atleast, a lot of the supporters of this stuff are themselves female! It's like a bizarre willfull submission.

Indeed very strange but no it doesn't surprise me. I worked in a women shelter once and didn't go back. You'd see some women covered up in bruises saying that they deserved it. Very crazy, I think my mom did the right thing by leaving my dad and in a society that allowed her to. Still even having the right to work, we were pretty below our means but it was better than being around misery. I really cannot tolerate this sort of attitude being female myself. It's like someone telling you you're human but not quite or you're not good enough because you were born a certain way "different" to man whatever that means. Our western culture may still have cracks but dang when I see this stuff I'd say we've come a long way from these primitive attitudes.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Judging from my own experiences, my mom was the one worked, raised us, and yes I lived in a household with a dad who not only drank but didn't work. My mom finally divorced him and took care of us single handedly and did a great job I think. My sister is going through the same stuff with her husband, he doesn't work, drinks and isn't great with taking care of the kids.

In Islam, the women is a queen, everyone works and strive for her. When shes not married, her father is obliged to spend on her and a hadith states that if a men has two girls and he raised them in a good way he'll be rewarded by paradise. WHen shes married, his husband should spend on her ( obliged, if he does not , he or the father, spend on her they can be punished by the law) )
the proof is in Quran (4:34)
34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women,

If the father is died, and the girl is not married; the brother has the duty to spend on her too.

And all over the QUran you'll find:"and speak to them words of kindness and justice." concerning women.

So, as you can see Shariah is protecting women by all means and everyone should take care of her and protect her dignity and modesty.

Oh yes, and Shariah forbids alcohol.

I just cannot even fathom women being "lower" than men or a woman being that of a child.

Who said they are lower? Their authority is one of a different form, the kind and sweet power. As for the child thing, then brother Abu rashid was just giving an example that when you disciple a child it doesnt mean you abuse him, = which doesnt mean he meant women were like children, what he meant was that discipline is not obligatory and abuse but thats not what we are talking about.

u'll have to excuse me but this just makes me angry like so many other excuses I've seen for the abuse of women even in this culture.

No need to apologies, and I wasnt giving excuses, at all. On the contrary , I dislike a lot the apologists who try each time to dismiss rules or saying its not part of Islam in order to please others. No, I dont give excuses I just explain the Islamic view on it as we learn it and Allah knows best.

Best regards

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

my mom did the right thing by leaving my dad and in a society that allowed her to.

Which society does not allow her to do that? I can see more misconceptions here, but Ill answer you when I get sure of what you mean

 

[darkendless]

My mum and dad are pretty much the same. They both work, they both clean.

The great thing about not having a religion is that there are no demeaning predetermined roles for my parents.

If there is a family tragedy, people manage as best they can and as efficiently as they can. There are no pre-requisits.

I don't understand why a religion would legislate how to deal with a family tragedy of some sort. Thats very strange to me.

 

[MissAlice]

Which society does not allow her to do that? I can see more misconceptions here, but Ill answer you when I get sure of what you mean

You're right I shouldn't assume so I will ellaborate. My mom was able to divorce my father without the help of a male member, she was able to work two jobs just to help support us. She could have married again but I think it really affected her more than us. I'm not so sure how it is in other Islamic countries, I know they aren't all the same but I remember one girl from Iran who said she wasn't allowed to work or go out on her own. She had to be accompanied by her brother or uncle because her husband forbade her going alone.

Also what happens when a woman is not married? What if she decides education comes first? What if she doesn't want to get married? If her husband hits her? I'm just filling in the gaps Abu refused to answer. Is she just viewed as child gone bad for being hit or punished by society? Can she get a divorce if this happens? Will she need male witnesses in order for this process to take place? What is the male's attitude toward her plight if she wished to divorce him?

I appreciate your effort in explaining this but I'm seeing many case scenarios where a man would abuse his "authority" and there have been who do. To put your life into someone else's hands just seems dangerous. I think it would be great if a man could take care of his wife and children and took responsibility as a person in the family. But what if a woman doesn't fit this stereotypical roles as a "woman"? What if she wants to work? What if the man she marries turns into a monster?

 

[Badran]

You're right I shouldn't assume so I will ellaborate. My mom was able to divorce my father without the help of a male member, she was able to work two jobs just to help support us. She could have married again but I think it really affected her more than us. I'm not so sure how it is in other Islamic countries, I know they aren't all the same but I remember one girl from Iran who said she wasn't allowed to work or go out on her own. She had to be accompanied by her brother or uncle because her husband forbade her going alone.

You have seen very bad examples, but this is not how things are in general.

Also what happens when a woman is not married?

Nothing happens.

What if she decides education comes first

Then education comes first. She can do what she wants.

What if she doesn't want to get married?

She doesn't have to.

If her husband hits her? Is she just viewed as child gone bad for being hit or punished by society?

No, if he beats her he is the one gone bad. What i'm telling you is not my personal opinion only, this is how things are in my country for example.

Can she get a divorce if this happens?

She can get a divorce for any reason.

Will she need male witnesses in order for this process to take place

No. These whole ridicules things you here about women not going out without a male is just nonsense, there is no such thing. Only in certain places these horrible things happen, and the in rest of Islamic countries this also happens, but in a few strange cases, not the usual.

 

[MissAlice]

You have seen very bad examples, but this is not how things are in general.



Nothing happens.



Then education comes first. She can do what she wants.



She doesn't have to.



No, if he beats her he is the one gone bad. What i'm telling you is not my personal opinion only, this is how things are in my country for example.



She can get a divorce for any reason.



No. These whole ridicules things you here about women not going out without a male is just nonsense, there is no such thing. Only in certain places these horrible things happen, and the in rest of Islamic countries this also happens, but in a few strange cases, not the usual.

Ah thank you for elaborating Badran. Your explanations are always much appreciated.

Still it worries me how one could so easily abuse a woman in the name of "discipline" and religion but that's just me. We have many laws in the west to protect against such things happening. I don't know about Egypt or Saudi Arabia or even Pakistan, I'm sure their laws all differ in some degrees and aspects and I know the most vulnerable are always going to be the ones who can't afford an attorney or a divorce let alone a sufficient living.

 

[Badran]

Ah thank you for elaborating Badran. Your explanations are always much appreciated.

Still it worries me how one could so easily abuse a woman in the name of "discipline" and religion but that's just me. We have many laws in the west to protect against such things happening. I don't know about Egypt or Saudi Arabia or even Pakistan, I'm sure their laws all differ in some degrees and aspects and I know the most vulnerable are always going to be the ones who can't afford an attorney or a divorce let alone a sufficient living.

Yes sure there are hard situations for some people, no society is free of that. There are problems of course.

 

[Abu Rashid]

I cannot imagine my husband physically "disciplining" me in any way, shape, or form. In fact, the thought makes me chuckle. When he has an issue with me, he talks to me, we work it out, done.

That's good, and that's the way it should be, and the way it is in my household. Unfortunately there could arise a case where a woman is not going to accept working issues out with words alone, and it could require sterner action. Islam allows for that, that's all.

 

[Abu Rashid]

Judging from my own experiences, my mom was the one worked, raised us, and yes I lived in a household with a dad who not only drank but didn't work.

Well there's the problem right there isn't it? And that's why Islam prohibits alcohol.

Problem solved.

 

[Abu Rashid]

Oddly enough though from what I've seen on RF atleast, a lot of the supporters of this stuff are themselves female! It's like a bizarre willfull submission.

Or perhaps because they realise that it makes for a better society?

And why is it the only ones claiming they want to "liberate" Muslim women from their supposed shackles are Western men? My guess is they can't stand the thought of a woman not being half naked showing off their "assets" for all to see.

Very telling post Paul.

 

[Aquitaine]

Or perhaps because they realise that it makes for a better society?

So........ denying Women equal rights and denying the permission for a Man to beat a Woman makes a lesser society? Please explain how you think it makes a better society?

And why is it the only ones claiming they want to "liberate" Muslim women from their supposed shackles are Western men?

I don't believe that's the case - anyone regardless of sex, race, and orientation can oppose mysogyny. Also perhaps I should elaborate, I'm suprised simply to hear Muslim Women in support of such ideals, regardless of how many on RF actually do so. Perhaps you should do a poll for the Muslim Women here as to whether or not they support the idea of being physically punished by the Husband, so we can then get a better understand in relation the that particular demographic on RF?

My guess is they can't stand the thought of a woman not being half naked showing off their "assets" for all to see.

I've heard of this "outlook" before by other Muslim Men: that Western Men "wouldn't give a Woman the time of day unless she flashes you some flesh". LOL!

Of course, we see nothing wrong with mysogyny, all we care about is whether or not they're showing bewbs!

 

[Aquitaine]

That's good, and that's the way it should be, and the way it is in my household. Unfortunately there could arise a case where a woman is not going to accept working issues out with words alone, and it could require sterner action. Islam allows for that, that's all.

Nice to know you support hitting Women, very manly of you.

 

[nawab]

hey the guy who posted that first ask the christians about this and then ask us muslims

If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, 12you shall cut off her hand; show no pity. -- Deuteronomy 25:11-12

that guy just said about beating what about the word of god says chop off her hands for saving her husband what a merciful god he is

 

[Aquitaine]

hey the guy who posted that first ask the christians about this and then ask us muslims

If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, 12you shall cut off her hand; show no pity. -- Deuteronomy 25:11-12

that guy just said about beating what about the word of god says chop off her hands for saving her husband what a merciful god he is

Glad I'm not a Christian then

 

[Sahar]

You're right I shouldn't assume so I will ellaborate. My mom was able to divorce my father without the help of a male member, she was able to work two jobs just to help support us. She could have married again but I think it really affected her more than us.

Should this be the rule for women? Raising kids and having two jobs? Overburdening the woman like this should be an exception and not a rule. Irresponsible husbands and fathers should be exceptions.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

hey the guy who posted that first ask the christians about this and then ask us muslims

If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, 12you shall cut off her hand; show no pity. -- Deuteronomy 25:11-12

that guy just said about beating what about the word of god says chop off her hands for saving her husband what a merciful god he is

Personally, I couldn't care less what the Bible says about a woman grabbing a man's crotch, but when I looked up Deutoronomy 25, I noticed this little nugget, right above verse 12:
7 However, if a man does not want to marry his brother's wife, she shall go to the elders at the town gate and say, "My husband's brother refuses to carry on his brother's name in Israel. He will not fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to me." 89 his brother's widow shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, take off one of his sandals, spit in his face and say, "This is what is done to the man who will not build up his brother's family line." 10 That man's line shall be known in Israel as The Family of the Unsandaled.

How much shame should one man live with? Can you imagine the indignity of having your family referred to as "The Family of the Unsandaled"?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

1) He didn't mention any verse that allows people to beat their wives.

2) He didn't mention any Hadiths that allow men to beat their wives.

3) he could have been talking about the circumstances in which if a husband got angry and beat his wife, it might be forgivable if he did not injure her, and didn't do it in front of the kids. Not that he is encouraging it.

4) Even if he was, that doesn't mean that Islam prescribes this, one guy in a show says something, and it must be true?

5) Even if there is some Hadith that justifies what he is saying here, nobody acts or behaves that way and i as well as other Muslims i know never discussed the concept of "How to appropriately beat up our wives". Beating women is considered disgusting behavior.

6) His opinion might be representing a certain sect in Islam, not all sects agrees on everything.

7) If there is a Hadith that says something close to this, then like i said it will be not saying the rules of how to beat your wives, it will be saying the limits under which the man would go unpunished or forgiven.

8) Not every Hadith that exists is followed or considered to be really said by the prophet.

Great points, frubals to you.

 

[Sahar]

This verse is interpreted in two ways, one that i don't agree with, because it's inconsistent with the rest of the Quran, semantically and in regards to the relationship between men and women in general. There is common misunderstanding regarding this verse.

The other one, which i agree with, is that men are responsible in front of god to provide finance to their wives, and to protect them.... Then, it says that those who you fear they do bad, you should advise them, then leave them in beds and cut them of or separate them...

In other words, because i can't translate this properly, the point of this verse, is that men are responsible for certain things regarding woman and that if women do certain things, a man can deal with that first by advising, then by not having sex with her and not speaking with them.... (the normal procedures of being mad at someone).

The word in arabic, which is translated to "beat" here, is used in the Quran in other context, that's why it's concluded that here too it doesn't mean beat them, the word came right after the part of leaving them in beds without any clarification because it's a continue to the part before it, as in leave them in beds and cut them off. As in being mad at someone so you don't speak to him.

One last part, no muslims i know, has ever justified beating there wives, i'm not saying that no Muslim beats his wife, but i'm saying even those muslims who disagree with me regarding lots of things in Islam, agrees that beating wives is wrong and disgusting. Scholars have clarified this many times, and most Muslims i know agree on this.

Badran what do you mean by "cut them off" or "separate them"?