Female Muslims... please explain

[301ouncer]

Here's your statistical evidence of the continued abuse of women - its right out there on my fcuking street in broad daylight. And there's millions of other 'pieves of evidence' worldwide

That is not really much of evidence of the wife beating you are talking about. I lived many years in both the arab muslim world and the secular european world. Most muslims in the street in both socities are polite, family oriented, woman seems happy with lots of smiles and politness. Nothing of what you are trying to dish out here.

No need to use such bad language as I only asked for a reasonable and reliable worldwide statistical information.

If you have no such statistical academia researched materials then just say so. No need to swear.:sorry1:

 

[Octavia156]

First of all, the argument that in certain times Muslims were bad and therefore Islam is bad is false.

Second, i don't care to discuss history, and sorting through some lies and some loose facts, and a couple of horrifying things done by Muslims. I have the teachings of the religion right in front of me.

How can you have a false argument.. :sarcastic

oh wait a minute - 'I don't care to discuss history'... thats a false argument.

I'm not going to bother explaining what a stupid position that puts you in - because we discussing the fundamental tenets of your religion. Discussing its history is therefore essential
Your ignoring it is exactly what ****** everyone off!

A couple of horrifying things.... Don't forget Muslims committed genocide against the Zoroastrians

 

[301ouncer]

How can you have a false argument.. :sarcastic

oh wait a minute - 'I don't care to discuss history'... thats a false argument.

I'm not going to bother explaining what a stupid position that puts you in - because we discussing the fundamental tenets of your religion. Discussing its history is therefore essential
Your ignoring it is exactly what ****** everyone off!

A couple of horrifying things.... Don't forget Muslims committed genocide against the Zoroastrians

Again. Really no need to insult mr.badran. he is not stupid to put himself in a stupid position.

I am sure you can get your points across without repeatedly insulting and using bad language or taking this course of actions.

 

[ChristineES]

There are Westerners who are beaten by their husbands every day. They stay with the man. No one can do anything unless the ones being beaten wants to be helped. I know this sounds pretty apathetic, but it is also the truth.

 

[ChristineES]

I realized I should have said this in my last post here. Children are exceptions, since they can't make the same kinds of decisions adults can. They need to be helped without them asking most of the time.

 

[Badran]

Exactly.

301 Ouncer is only defending the Islamic religious aspect of beating a wife, as outlined in verse 4:34 of what he considers to be a holy text, the Qu'ran.

Women - can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.

Thanks for posting this. I looked up verse 4:34 online.

Again, I will do my best to be fair by allowing Muslims to explain this verse, in case I have misunderstood it.

But to me, it seems to state very clearly that men are superior to women and that if a wife is disobedient her husband should (1) admonish her, (2) deny her sex and (3) physically punish her. As to number 3, one translation I looked up said "scourge" her. Another translation said clearly that the man was to "beat" her.

Are these accurate translations? Have I misunderstood the context?

Again, I am not trying to put peaceful Muslims on the defensive. But I feel compelled to challenge any religious teachings that instruct its followers to engage in acts of violence, even if that means only "lightly" beating your wife. I point this out because one translation did suggest the beatings should be light.

This verse is interpreted in two ways, one that i don't agree with, because it's inconsistent with the rest of the Quran, semantically and in regards to the relationship between men and women in general. There is common misunderstanding regarding this verse.

The other one, which i agree with, is that men are responsible in front of god to provide finance to their wives, and to protect them.... Then, it says that those who you fear they do bad, you should advise them, then leave them in beds and cut them of or separate them...

In other words, because i can't translate this properly, the point of this verse, is that men are responsible for certain things regarding woman and that if women do certain things, a man can deal with that first by advising, then by not having sex with her and not speaking with them.... (the normal procedures of being mad at someone).

The word in arabic, which is translated to "beat" here, is used in the Quran in other context, that's why it's concluded that here too it doesn't mean beat them, the word came right after the part of leaving them in beds without any clarification because it's a continue to the part before it, as in leave them in beds and cut them off. As in being mad at someone so you don't speak to him.

One last part, no muslims i know, has ever justified beating there wives, i'm not saying that no Muslim beats his wife, but i'm saying even those muslims who disagree with me regarding lots of things in Islam, agrees that beating wives is wrong and disgusting. Scholars have clarified this many times, and most Muslims i know agree on this.

 

[Badran]

How can you have a false argument

Like when someone says that just because some tall guys do bad stuff, means tall guys are bad, or being tall is bad.

I'm not going to bother explaining what a stupid position that puts you in

Because it doesn't.

because we discussing the fundamental tenets of your religion. Discussing its history is therefore essential

No. We are discussing domestic violence, and Islam's position from it. Not every time we discuss something i have to defend everything about Islam, stick to the topic.

Your ignoring it is exactly what ****** everyone off!

No, i don't ignore anything. I will discuss anything. But like i said, this is completely unrelated to the topic and i don't have to defend everything about Islam each time a subject is brought up, just because some people can't contain their hatred for my religion.

 

[Abu Rashid]

Female Muslims... please explain
how can you justify this:

Come and listen to my Western/Christian neighbours every night fighting and the man beating the crap out of his wife and explain to me why this practice is so widespread in your societies, yet you spend your time trying to correct Islam? You need to correct yourselves first. Nearly every single location I've lived in, I've had at least one neighbour who'll get absolutely plastered once or twice a week and come home and abuse and bash his spouse.

 

[Madhuri]

Come and listen to my Western/Christian neighbours every night fighting and the man beating the crap out of his wife and explain to me why this practice is so widespread in your societies, yet you spend your time trying to correct Islam? You need to correct yourselves first. Nearly every single location I've lived in, I've had at least one neighbour who'll get absolutely plastered once or twice a week and come home and abuse and bash his spouse.

Jeez, do you live in a bad Syndey suburb? That's horrible. I've never lived near homes with abusive families.

 

[Badran]

Thats the problem.

You're basing the whole idea of Islamic religious tolerance on one Surah?

He knows enough. One surah which clearly shows that every body is free to choose there religion, or practice whichever religion they want.

 

[Abu Rashid]

Jeez, do you live in a bad Syndey suburb? That's horrible. I've never lived near homes with abusive families.

I've lived in various suburbs in pretty much every single capital city of Australia, and I've seen/heard it pretty much everywhere.

It's quite rampant in Australian society. Perhaps you've not lived in many different places, or have just been lucky.

I've also had relatives who have the same problem (all non-Muslims).

The simple fact is that domestic abuse is far more rampant in Western/Christian societies than it is in Muslim societies. Probably due to the fact of the proliferation of alcohol and drug use I'd guess. In pretty much all the cases I've witnessed it, it was coupled with alcohol/drug use.

 

[Riverwolf]

Thats the problem.

You're basing the whole idea of Islamic religious tolerance on one Surah?

That Surah says it all. What more needs to be said?

It literally commands: "Tolerate other peoples' beliefs and ways of life." It's just one Surah, and it doesn't seem to be based on any one event, so it's fair to assume that it's a general command.

 

[Riverwolf]

He knows enough. One surah which clearly shows that every body is free to choose there religion, or practice whichever religion they want.

And I haven't even done a whole lot of Qur'anic study.

Quick question about that Surah: is it Meccan or Medinan?

 

[Riverwolf]

The simple fact is that domestic abuse is far more rampant in Western/Christian societies than it is in Muslim societies. Probably due to the fact of the proliferation of alcohol and drug use I'd guess. In pretty much all the cases I've witnessed it, it was coupled with alcohol/drug use.

While you're probably right, it would be a good idea to back that up with real statistics. After all, one Western country isn't necessarily a representation of all Western countries.

You are correct, however: alcohol and drug abuse are common correlations with spousal abuse. One other correlation, however, is poverty.

 

[Badran]

And I haven't even done a whole lot of Qur'anic study.

Quick question about that Surah: is it Meccan or Medinan?

It's Meccan. It was talking about when some people where asking the Prophet (pbuh) to worship their gods for a certain time, and they would worship his for a certain time. This is the response that God told Muhammad (pbuh) to tell them, which clearly shows tolerance and freedom to choose religion.

 

[Riverwolf]

It's Meccan. It was talking about when some people where asking the Prophet (pbuh) to worship their gods for a certain time, and they would worship his for a certain time. This is the response that God told Muhammad (pbuh) to tell them, which clearly shows tolerance and freedom to choose religion.

I had a feeling it was Meccan, because from what little study of the Qur'an I've done, the Meccan Surahs were shorter.

 

[Badran]

Here's your statistical evidence of the continued abuse of women - its right out there on my street in broad daylight. And there's millions of other 'pieves of evidence' worldwide

[youtube]TlkxlzTZc48[/youtube]
YouTube - Ban the burka

Aside from the fact that this video doesn't even come close to addressing domestic violence, what on earth is this guy's pathetic opinions are supposed to mean to us?

It's sad to see the incapability of some people to understand that some people just don't think like you do. He is simply assuming that any woman who wants to wear burqa should see a doctor, and that she is wrong, and making loads of assumptions. This video is simply some guy, making fun of Islam, and of Muslim women, and any body who agrees or tries to respect Muslims. And this is somehow supposed to be the "statistical evidence" of abuse of women.

 

[Shia Islam]

Response to the Aisha marriage story- A Shia Islamic Perspective:

Well with respect with all my sunni brothers and sisters,
They know that Sunnis rulers prohibited writings the sayings of the prophet till the second Islamic century!

That's why Sunni Hadiths (narrations) have lots of such of the above mentioned stories.

Shia Scholars have proved with simple logic that the above hadith is wrong.
Here is the prove:

1. Aysha became Muslim at the beginning of the Revelation (Bi'tha).
2. The prophet PBUHH married Aysha (made the marriage contract-Aqd in Arabic) in the tenth year after the revelation.

Even if we assume that she became Muslim as a child of 7 years, the minimum possible age at the contract, rather than the marriage would be (10+7=17) years.

According to the Shia narrations she was much older than that, and the prophet PBUHH was not her first husband.

-BTW: The prophet married his first wife when he was 25 and she was 40 years old.

 

[Marsh]

Perhaps while we're at it, blacks should explain why domestic abuse is higher in their communities. Were these people Muslims? More likely they were secularists influenced by the decadent abomination of black hip-hop "culture".

I could point to a link where a brother murdered his own sister with the assistance of his father, to preserve the father's honor. The family -- Muslim. Look up the honor killing of 16 year old Aqsa Parvez, in Toronto, Ontario.

I think you would find that violence by men was more acceptable in the past in Western society than it is now. As secularization has taken hold such behaviour by men has become less acceptable. Secularization, I would argue, actually discourages male violence because it promotes equality of the sexes.

The domestic violence present in black communities relates more to poverty, I would think. The important point is the practice of violence against women is not condoned anywhere in the West. It is discouraged at every level of Western society. In Islamic society, however, wife beating seems to be a practice that is condoned. It is seen to be a husband's right to beat his wife, so long as it is done properly. The Koran permits the beating of women. This is true, yes?

My question is do you condone the beating of women if it is done within the rules established in the Koran? Is it possible for Muslims to regard such passages, as pertain to the beating of women, in the Koran as no longer acceptable in modern society?

 

[Abu Rashid]

I could point to a link where a brother murdered his own sister with the assistance of his father, to preserve the father's honor. The family -- Muslim. Look up the honor killing of 16 year old Aqsa Parvez, in Toronto, Ontario.

And I can provide you to a link where over 800 women in one year alone were murdered in a Christian country because they'd "dishonoured" their husbands by sleeping with other men. And?

A criminal is a criminal... their religion has little to do with it. Islam no more condones vigilante slayings of relatives/spouses than Christianity does.

As secularization has taken hold such behaviour by men has become less acceptable. Secularization, I would argue, actually discourages male violence because it promotes equality of the sexes.

Actually I'd say women are just more "equally" violent now. And this is being witnessed (in my country anyway) amongst young women who've grown up in this bright new secular society, where they are now getting into the habit of beating one another up, and filming it on their mobile phones then posting it on youtube. Yes great achievements by secular society. And for the record I think domestic violence in Western countries has gone up, not down. As drugs and alcohol become more and more widespread, so too does domestic violence.

In Islamic society, however, wife beating seems to be a practice that is condoned. It is seen to be a husband's right to beat his wife, so long as it is done properly. The Koran permits the beating of women. This is true, yes?

This is not correct. Islam permits the man to disclipine his wife in the case she has been rebellious. The disclipine is no more than would be allowed for a child. Certainly nothing occasioning domestic abuse.

Domestic abuse and Islamic disclipine are two completely different things, as are abusing children and disclipining them.

My question is do you condone the beating of women if it is done within the rules established in the Koran? Is it possible for Muslims to regard such passages, as pertain to the beating of women, in the Koran as no longer acceptable in modern society?

Disclipining a rebellious wife is quite fine in modern society. Why is it any less valid in "modern" society than in past society?

Abusing a spouse though is not, and is a despicable action, which should be punished severely. It is an act of abuse, and a wife has every right to seek retribution for it.