Female Muslims... please explain

[Kerr]

Kerr,

Keep in mind it is only in extreme circumstances. It must be only after all other avenues of disclipine have been tried, including sleeping separately (this is clearly mentioned in the Qur'an), which clearly indicates it should not be a strike of anger, but a symbolic act of disclipine. It may not leave any mark, bruising etc. Can never be on the face or other delicate area.

I still fail to see how it can have any positive affects where other methods have failed, especially if she is a strong woman . To get physical just appear counter productive.

It is in the case when there is clear rebelliousness, in which case there'd be no ambiguity that she'd done wrong. And if she did not ceased committing the rebellion even after being separated from the marital bed.

But still, what if he is wrong? What if his assessment is wrong? And what if she has every right to be rebellious? Whatever "rebellious" means...

 

[Abu Rashid]

I still fail to see how it can have any positive affects where other methods have failed, especially if she is a strong woman . To get physical just appear counter productive.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it I guess...

Personally I think the "Western" way of thinking has failed miserably, and has led to a society where rebelliousness is the norm, and the compound problems which end up arising from it are far far worse.

But still, what if he is wrong? What if his assessment is wrong? And what if she has every right to be rebellious? Whatever "rebellious" means...

Same could be asked about a parent with relation to a child I guess... What if a parent disciplines a child and is wrong?

 

[Kerr]

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it I guess...

Personally I think the "Western" way of thinking has failed miserably, and has led to a society where rebelliousness is the norm, and the compound problems which end up arising from it are far far worse.

It is not a "western way of thinking", it is my own way of thinking. Going physical leads to anger. Anger will only make it worse, not better. I have no doubt diplomacy and trying to act as a rational adult works much better.

And sometimes rebellion is necessary.

Same could be asked about a parent with relation to a child I guess... What if a parent disciplines a child and is wrong?

There is a huge difference between a child and an adult. An adult can respond in ways a child cannot.

 

[Octavia156]

No, of course not, but there system has some mistakes in some matters in my opinion. The problem is, that there are a lot of cultural ideas that are attached to Islam, while Islam doesn't prescribe it.

Also, there is a a lot of other Muslim countries, in which women enjoy all their rights, and are not being abused like this. Don't forget also, that most Muslim countries are in bad conditions, in various ways. Either war, or poverty... In other words, most of the problems you see, i believe are social problems. For example, we have certain behavior in the south here in Egypt, that is completely against Islam, yet those people do it out of honor and so, we have campaigns against such things, and people are all the time discussing these problems on TV.

You do seem to have your head screwed on Badran, I apologise for insulting you before, I was frustrated.
I know these ills are a product of society as much as they are of religion.

Thing is, its alot easier to address these social ills if you don't have religion getting in your way

I just wish you'd all make your minds up, sort your society out and get over this rediculous monotheism. )(

 

[Abu Rashid]

It is not a "western way of thinking", it is my own way of thinking.

It is the Western way of thinking that male and female must be equivalent, and that they must equally share all authority.

Going physical leads to anger. Anger will only make it worse, not better. I have no doubt diplomacy and trying to act as a rational adult works much better.

As I've already pointed out, the Qur'an makes it clear that it must not be a harsh reaction in a fit of rage, hence the many initial measures that must be taken before resorting to physical discipline.

There is a huge difference between a child and an adult. An adult can respond in ways a child cannot.

An adult female is under the authority and care of her husband. And therefore she may be disciplined by him in extreme circumstances (which makes it distinct from the parent-child relationship), it doesn't mean she is equivalent to a child, as she herself has authority over children to discipline them. But you must accept a clearly defined chain of command/authority, because failure to do so leads to nothing but chaos in the family which we witness today is a blight on Western societies the world over, because of this artificial insistence that women be equivalent in authority to men.

 

[Moonstone]

It is the Western way of thinking that male and female must be equivalent, and that they must equally share all authority.



As I've already pointed out, the Qur'an makes it clear that it must not be a harsh reaction in a fit of rage, hence the many initial measures that must be taken before resorting to physical discipline.



An adult female is under the authority and care of her husband. And therefore she may be disciplined by him in extreme circumstances (which makes it distinct from the parent-child relationship), it doesn't mean she is equivalent to a child, as she herself has authority over children to discipline them. But you must accept a clearly defined chain of command/authority, because failure to do so leads to nothing but chaos in the family which we witness today is a blight on Western societies the world over, because of this artificial insistence that women be equivalent in authority to men.

Tell me why women shouldn't be equivalent in authority to men?

 

[Kerr]

It is the Western way of thinking that male and female must be equivalent, and that they must equally share all authority.

Ok, but it is still my own view .

As I've already pointed out, the Qur'an makes it clear that it must not be a harsh reaction in a fit of rage, hence the many initial measures that must be taken before resorting to physical discipline.

I was speaking about the one being disciplined and the relationship as a whole.

An adult female is under the authority and care of her husband. And therefore she may be disciplined by him in extreme circumstances (which makes it distinct from the parent-child relationship), it doesn't mean she is equivalent to a child, as she herself has authority over children to discipline them. But you must accept a clearly defined chain of command/authority, because failure to do so leads to nothing but chaos in the family which we witness today is a blight on Western societies the world over, because of this artificial insistence that women be equivalent in authority to men.

Which isn´t the case. Know families that does not fit a model where women have less authority then men, yet they are not the way you describe.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

As you mentioned moon, the non equivalence thing is specific to autorithy. Why? Have you ever seen a country being lead by two governers?

No, you always see a governer and a counseller, in fact in the Islamic family it may seems that the husband is leading the house but in reality the house is based on the wife, she is the ones who cares about everyone else thats why the prophet sallalahu' alayhi wassalam considered the work the wife does at home as her Jihad ( fighting in the cause of Allah) while men had to go fight for months.

As for the rest, then the hadith clearly states it : ألنساء شقائق الرجال i.e women are equals to men. And thats a concept that no one ever at that time would have thought of, in a time women were herited along with money and where they were sailed and if someone hated his wife he would harm her until she accept to give up for the dowry he gave her in order to divorce her.

Equivalence in autorithy leads to war, while by having a public governer and a secret one then things go easier and wars are avoided. And if you're a women ( you dont have the gender showing), then you may know how we are good at governing men secretly dont you? You may know that if you force him to do something through force he'll never do it, but if you eat his mind with sweet words he'll give up on everything.

Thats why, when the daughter of a wise women were about to marry al Hajjaj ( a muslim caliphate) her mother advised her in a well known will: My daughter, be his slave and he will be your slave back.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Which isn´t the case. Know families that does not fit a model where women have less authority then men, yet they are not the way you describe.

Please try to avoid to judge muslims in our times, since we're in a pity situation that doesnt please neither a friend nor an enemy. But if you're sincere in your questions, try to learn about Islam itself and judge it from its original sources Quran and Sunnah ( and scholars opinions, since they are the more knowledgable about those two)

 

[*Anne*]

I cannot imagine my husband physically "disciplining" me in any way, shape, or form. In fact, the thought makes me chuckle. When he has an issue with me, he talks to me, we work it out, done.

Not a single finger is raised in my house, not even against the dog.

 

[Moonstone]

Thank you for answering my question. I respect your opinion but still I don't think I agree with it. It seems like the man is seen higher as the woman so he gets to be in charge. That's just how I see it.

As you mentioned moon, the non equivalence thing is specific to autorithy. Why? Have you ever seen a country being lead by two governers?

No, you always see a governer and a counseller, in fact in the Islamic family it may seems that the husband is leading the house but in reality the house is based on the wife, she is the ones who cares about everyone else thats why the prophet sallalahu' alayhi wassalam considered the work the wife does at home as her Jihad ( fighting in the cause of Allah) while men had to go fight for months.

As for the rest, then the hadith clearly states it : ألنساء شقائق الرجال i.e women are equals to men. And thats a concept that no one ever at that time would have thought of, in a time women were herited along with money and where they were sailed and if someone hated his wife he would harm her until she accept to give up for the dowry he gave her in order to divorce her.

Equivalence in autorithy leads to war, while by having a public governer and a secret one then things go easier and wars are avoided. And if you're a women ( you dont have the gender showing), then you may know how we are good at governing men secretly dont you? You may know that if you force him to do something through force he'll never do it, but if you eat his mind with sweet words he'll give up on everything.

Thats why, when the daughter of a wise women were about to marry al Hajjaj ( a muslim caliphate) her mother advised her in a well known will: My daughter, be his slave and he will be your slave back.

 

[Aquitaine]

So I take it the Wife (more like Wives - amirite? ) are allowed to extract physical punishment on the Husband too, incase he ever decides to be rebellious etc?

 

[Badran]

Which isn´t the case. Know families that does not fit a model where women have less authority then men, yet they are not the way you describe.

I agree. I don't see authority as relevant at all.

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

I thought my point was clear, but it seems it was not.

In a muslim house, men are the governer because two forces cant lead one land unless they fight. Therefore, the answer is no the wife is not supposed to discipline a rebellious husband , instead she may counsel him and advise him. On the other hand, you may have not noticed it, but the men should advise too ( before the physical part) , not only advising but advising and being patient on that ( men and women are rewarded for their patience) then he may recure to the other mean which is to leave them in their beds.

You may try to understand the general view of Islam on the family in society before debating every ruling regarding it, otherwise the discussion wont be as fruitful as we wish it to be

Best regards

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

I cannot imagine my husband physically "disciplining" me in any way, shape, or form. In fact, the thought makes me chuckle. When he has an issue with me, he talks to me, we work it out, done.

Not a single finger is raised in my house, not even against the dog.

Neither in our house. But Islam do not give rulings to general situations only but also to specfic cases such as the time before the the prophet sallalahu 'alayhi wassalam were women were herited and belliteled and women were dealed with like animals or objects not as humans.
Also, these specific cases are not only specfic to that time, even these days some men have no control over their temper if he sees someone trying to take over his land, you know in arabic there this saying that jalousy between men over a women cannot be settled until theres blood and death while women's jaleousy most of the times do not depass the limit of throwing words or breaking stuffs. (Its just the meaning, the saying is not like that lol), but the point is not the jealousy between men but to show that men fight for their lands, and a family is not a fighting area therefore Islam understood that some men may be so rebellious when they see their women trying to take the governor place by force that it may lead to beating, and here Islam put rules and bidings and limits that a men cannot depass.

See how many wifes are being harmed and beaten every day in the western world ( I know you may disagree on this term, but you know what I mean), and when they are drunk and come back home theres no limit at all. Therefore Islam forbids alcohol, first step, order men to advise rebellious women and be patient and reward them for that , second step, and if at any time the men cannot control his anger ( as I said, specific cases) he is ordered to not to harm or to let any spots on his wife body , third step. Now tell me, when you beat someone , is it possible not to let blue marks on his/her body? No, until you are beating kindly or calmly or anything else.

Sharia's first job is not to give cure, but to put safety tips before the worst happen then come the cure or the judgment.

And as I advised Mr Paul, you could try to revise the principles of Islam concerning the family in Islamic society and the huge place it takes in Shariah, then Inshallah you can understand all the specific stuffs easily

Best regards

 

[Aquitaine]

I thought my point was clear, but it seems it was not.

In a muslim house, men are the governer because two forces cant lead one land unless they fight. Therefore, the answer is no the wife is not supposed to discipline a rebellious husband , instead she may counsel him and advise him. On the other hand, you may have not noticed it, but the men should advise too ( before the physical part) , not only advising but advising and being patient on that ( men and women are rewarded for their patience) then he may recure to the other mean which is to leave them in their beds.

You may try to understand the general view of Islam on the family in society before debating every ruling regarding it, otherwise the discussion wont be as fruitful as we wish it to be

Best regards

So then, why not have the Wife as the Governor and the Husband as the Advisor? How come the conclusion seems to be that Man > Woman?

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

Thank you for answering my question. I respect your opinion but still I don't think I agree with it. It seems like the man is seen higher as the woman so he gets to be in charge. That's just how I see it.

Men are equals to women ( Prophetic saying as mentioned before), but each one has specific rulings that suit their natures. And Allah azza wajal are the creator of both and He knows their nature for real: (Quran 92:3-4)

3. And by Him Who created male and female;4. Certainly, your efforts and deeds are diverse (different in aims and purposes);


Quran (3:195)


195. So their Lord accepted of them (their supplication and answered them), "Never will I allow to be lost the work of any of you, be he male or female. You are (members) one of another,so those who emigrated and were driven out from their homes, and suffered harm in My Cause, and who fought, and were killed (in My Cause), verily, I will remit from them their evil deeds and admit them into Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise); a reward from All�h, and with All�h is the best of rewards."

 

[fatima_bintu_islam]

So then, why not have the Wife as the Governor and the Husband as the Advisor? How come the conclusion seems to be that Man > Woman?

Who I am to question the rulings of Allah azza wajjal, but through experience and by proofs from history you can see that youll never find women fighting for lands and killing each other isnt it?
Men fight for lands, women fight for love. Therefore each one has to follow his own way to get what he/she wants

QUran (92:4)
4. Certainly, your efforts and deeds are diverse (different in aims and purposes);

 

[Aquitaine]

Who I am to question the rulings of Allah azza wajjal, but through experience and by proofs from history you can see that youll never find women fighting for lands and killing each other isnt it?

Men fight for lands, women fight for love. Therefore each one has to follow his own way to get what he/she wants

QUran (92:4)
4. Certainly, your efforts and deeds are diverse (different in aims and purposes);

There are some examples throughout history of Women rising to power via such means. Of course, no way near as often as that of Men, but regardless.

Anyways since it seems clear that we both acknowledge that Men are more aggressive and violent than Women (generally speaking), wouldn't it be better to have the Woman in charge? Surely it's better to be ruled by a loving Governor than a violent and aggressive one?

 

[MissAlice]

This is just crazy.

Judging from my own experiences, my mom was the one worked, raised us, and yes I lived in a household with a dad who not only drank but didn't work. My mom finally divorced him and took care of us single handedly and did a great job I think. My sister is going through the same stuff with her husband, he doesn't work, drinks and isn't great with taking care of the kids. I just cannot even fathom women being "lower" than men or a woman being that of a child.

You'll have to excuse me but this just makes me angry like so many other excuses I've seen for the abuse of women even in this culture. But a culture that actually believes in a fallic argument about women. Now I know how a black guy would feel if he were to go on a forum and see the same opinions given to him back in the day of slavery.