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Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Conscious thoughts, Feb 21, 2021.

  1. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    You can get knowledge about the material and how to understand it. But you will never reach a point where God will become anything other than you having faith in him. There are no tests or ways for you to apply your knowledge of scriptures to get closer to understanding how a potential God operate or he want. Which is the ultimate goal I would assume?

    So even if you take the teacher which you have the most confident in, you would never be able to verify whether they are in fact correct or not, you might get closer to agreeing with them and share their view on the meaning of the scriptures, but ultimately it will never become knowledge, but purely you having more faith in it being the truth and therefore that your version of what this God want is more accurate than what someone else believes.

    Which eventually comes down to you being able to argue your version versus someone else version.

    But in regard to knowledge it not even remotely close to two scientists discussing whether gravity is real or not. Because its not a matter of opinion but rather which of them can best explain the observed data. And if one of them is clearly way off, surely that at least can't be the correct answer, it doesn't mean that the first one is a 100% accurate either, but at least given the current knowledge one could say that his version better explain reality than the other ones does. At least until some other person come along and fine tune it. Which is how we expand knowledge, by constantly eliminating wrong ideas that doesn't match current data.

    But how would you do that in a religious contexts, when talking about God, if both version uses the same scriptures and potentially can be interpreted both ways, as neither you or the other can eliminate the other version?
     
  2. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    All knowledge is ultimately a belief system, but that doesn't mean that we can't agree based on observed data which version best explain reality.

    If there is no observed data, it is unreasonable to assume something to then also be true, again doesn't mean it doesn't exist, simply that we currently have no knowledge of it and therefore it would be irrational to live or base our lives on such thing.

    Sort of like people going out of there way to make a planetary defence system against space trolls in case they decide to attack us. It would be crazy to live our lives as if that was a potential threat when no such thing have been observed.

    But again, they might exist and attack tomorrow, we obviously wouldn't know, but with our current knowledge it doesn't reflect our reality the best.
     
  3. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    In the beginning it is difficult to "see" the truth when practiceing spiritual teaching, but the more er clean out our wrongness and bad habbits it become more clear.

    If you have a glas of water that contain very mudy water that is how human beings see before cleaning out our body and mind.
    The closer we come to God, the more pure we become and the mudy water changes to crystal clear water and we see the truth as it truly are.
     
  4. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me wrong I think I understand how you feel, and can see the value in spiritually as a form of relaxation and to gather one's thoughts etc. but to me I see it as a false sense of clarity, obviously because I don't believe in God. But from an outside perspective, I don't see any religious people as being close to anything, but fully understand how they personally can feel like it.

    But when you read scriptures do you feel like you get to know God better or do you simply feel that you get better knowledge of the scriptures?

    Just wondering, if im not mistaken you used to be Christian and some other religions, but changed to Islam? But as a Christian didn't you feel close to God? and was that due to the bible not really giving you the answers or how come you felt differently back then?
     
  5. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Things I find inescapably true about the unseen is:

    The soul, and self identity beyond what can be defined.

    The heart, or place of cares, loves, hates, and ambivalences.

    The mind, or place of understanding, memory of knowns.

    The will or place of intentions that brings forth actions, realizes desires.

    The ability to embody, or be qualities, and characteristics of being.


    From these realizations of the unseen I like to think that no matter who you are or where you come from that applying true spiritual teachings can transform anyone into a person full of goodness and strength.

    The first step is realizing the inner world of the unseen.

    The second step is to gain the understandings of the teachings.

    The third step is to believe in, and have faith in true teachings.

    The fourth step is to be open to the affects of understood true teachings.
     
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  6. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Laws own natural presence once.

    Cannot be inferred twice.

    Otherwise science x two theist claims Phi O non physical God mass owns all laws.

    Mass held is God all laws one and once.

    C value 100 Ave age.

    One as onCe says conscious life lived. Lived a recorded living recorded average age life 100. Conscious human lived record old aged life wisdom taught the young son man theist that he is a liar.

    Human advice is for human life and human existence. So we taught in the presence one God or Allah as naming is human inferred all law existed and wisdom was from our two same aged human parents

    Respect your human elders.
    Honour human life.
    Live as an extended family in conditions one.

    Spiritual life. Live love and honour.

    One law or laws
     
  7. Conscious thoughts

    Conscious thoughts Veteran Member

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    Your memory is good :) i was born in to a Christian family, and no at that time i was not near God, i did not understand how to become close to God, so i started seeking when i was 15 years old. Than when i was 20 i converted to Buddhism, and was a buddhist for more than 20 years, when i could not gain more it, i started seeking again, i looked in to falun gong, but ended up believing in the Quran and islam, in islam there are different branches, and i have now a sufi teacher
     
  8. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    There is also a third option. I know very few people, believe in General Relativity, for example, and who also had the experience to directly witness well run GR experiments for themselves. Most people, who believe in this, simply take the word of others, sight and unseen to them. There is a level of faith involved when it comes to the layman in science. Evolution is taught in school even to those who do not go onto to science. They may have faith but they never develop the skills needed to prove it to themselves in the lab.

    They are no expert and may not fully grasp everything required to understand what is going on. They have faith in the bottom line of others, who they assume are the experts, even without any direct evidence, based on their own experiments. That is the scientific method. Controlled fusion has been investigated for 40 years based on faith in the science of the day, but it never panned out. Faith is also important to science or else people would not be motivated to walk that extra mile, to find or verify things with hard proof. All innovation starts with faith, since all innovation is not part of tangible reality, until that faithful person makes it real. It begins inside the person.

    Religion works the same way. There are people who have unique experiences that change their lives, forever. Like the science layman, the religious layman may not have such direct life changing evidence to support their belief in a higher power. Rather will take the word of such people, because they were in the position to make these observations for us.

    The Catholic Church, for example, has what are called Saints. These are people who not only do something special in life, but also have to perform a miracle or two. A miracle is something that may not be explainable by science, or science will call it a long shot with finite but small probability. These experts of faith become the mouth piece to the layman, and can instill faith in others.

    Christianity is about the inner man more that the outer man, since this is what Jesus, who is the head of the movement, says. What is the inner man? Science, such as psychology, associates the inner man with the unconscious mind. Jesus predicted this deeper part of the psyche, centuries before science. This was misunderstood before science caught up.

    Religious people have more experience with such unconsciousness phenomena, while science is more extroverted and uses others parts of the brain. Science is visual cortex and religion is more frontal lobe. The result is apples versus oranges of proof, which do not appear to overlap, unless someone can show how they are both connected, via brain firmware. Science innovation begins in the same place in the brain as religion.

    Psychology is an interesting area of science in that the skeptics, who dismiss it, will not believe any proof. Others believe based on the prestige of the doctor. Still others, who need psychological help to overcome emotional problems, will have the rare opportunity to learn how to see the unconscious mind in themselves, so they can witness things within the unconscious, that are creating the blockage. It is important to keep a open mind since faith comes before third person proof, until you become a first hand witness.
     
    #88 wellwisher, Feb 23, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2021
  9. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    Special Relativity is more accessible...even to math challenged
    types like me. (Only basic algebra is needed.) General Relativity
    is something that goes undisputed by the vast majority of those
    who use it, regardless of their society, country, religion, or type
    of bacon preferred. Also, the practical & theoretical basis are
    right there for us to follow, if we put in the effort.
    Controlled fusion is a very difficult engineering problem.
    "Faith" that it can be achieved is a great motivator to strive for what
    is possible. But it's not the same kind of faith as belief in things
    undetectable.
    The difference here is that personal experiences apply only to the
    one affected. Unlike Special Relativity, which I could explain to
    anyone using measurements of the speed of light & basic math.
    Saints & their deeds are untestable claims, which makes them far
    far more subjective than claims in science. This is the difference
    that I say is worth noting.
    I can't prove there are no gods. So I don't claim they
    cannot exist. But to claim they do exist based upon feelings
    is different from claiming a scientific theory, eg, evolution,
    which can be verified using physical evidence & reason,
    without relying upon feelings.
     
  10. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Basic law.

    Did God build machines?

    No.

    Artificial human thinking did.

    Natural. To be aware. To live balanced. To be natural totally supported.

    Artificial thinking to seek a status destruction where natural had been removed.

    That status O God.

    Planet earth O whole a O in space natural.

    Science say completeness by O.

    Then another larger body mass O substance destructive a sun attacked our O God perfection.

    A lesson.

    The theme some of the O gods go against natural laws. To remain as a creative God. To hold form O.

    An artificial teaching.

    We lived in balances.

    Science a choice removed the balances by copying destruction of.

    Making their choice illogical.

    Teaching of balances applied.

    Reason for teaching. Once whilst in perfect balance without O the perfection of was removed. To inherit a new balanced life with O God.

    Information also used.

    Those two thinking abilities destroyed our life. As the men who achieved it wanted to return to original perfection spirit and not own God O perfection.

    Eternal was once without loss. The only true perfection. You can only discuss perfection by comparison.
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Well , as a Christian they have the Bible. They 'see' and read the Bible. Their faith comes from the 'seen ' words found in Scripture.
    Over the many centuries the Bible has many enemies from both within and without, yet No one can get rid of it of rid of Bible people.
    Even when there is global troubles Jesus said his followers would be hated by ALL nations - Matthew 24:9; 10:22.

    Jesus was well educated in the old Hebrew Scriptures referring to them as 'religious truth' at John 17:17.
    Jesus used logical reasoning on the OT on which to base his faith.
    Not blind faith (credulity) but expounding and explaining the OT Scriptures for us.
     
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  12. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I agree but if not accompanied by reason it can become superstition. For instance the Holy Texts say dead bodies will rise out of their graves on the Day of Resurrection but according to science this cannot happen and never ever has. So believing this literally may immerse us in superstition.

    Could being raised from the dead mean instead being raised from the death of unbelief to the life of faith? Doesn’t that make more sense and is in accord with science and reason?
     
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  13. sayak83

    sayak83 Well-Known Member
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    I saw, experienced and then followed. So I never had a similar kind of faith.
     
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  14. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for poking, but is just wondering, hope it is ok :)

    So you spend a majority of your life being Christian and Buddhist, so during this time, did you just constantly feel that something was wrong with them? Because 20 years of being a buddhist, is not exactly a short amount of time :D Especially if you have spend them, not really believing in it as being correct or fulfilling as you seem to think that Islam is.

    It just makes me wonder how you manage to be a buddhist for 20 years then, without jumping off the train, if it didn't feel right or really meaningful, or did you just walk around with doubt all the time?
     
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