Does your belief / religion ect offer a better deal ?

[John1.12]

It will be never unless Jesus lied or the Bible is in error.
How do you explain these verses?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

The Book of Revelation refers to a man who will come with another name, not to Jesus.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

All these events took place when Baha'u'llah came and the rest will be fulfilled during the messianic age which started in 1852 AD and will last no less than 1000 years.

No, all the Christians are not going to go up in the air all at once and meet Jesus, defying gravity.
No, it is a misinterpretation of the Book of Revelation. There is no rapture and there is no tribulation. Apparently you believe everything you have been taught by Christianity in spite of the fact that it makes no sense and it is in-congruent with what Jesus says in the gospels.

Your confusing the atonement. About the atonement. Just keep reading. it literally tells you everything you need to know . Again this is too silly to respond to .

 

[McBell]

Yeah of course it matters if its true or not . But mainly this discussion could be had on the basis of if it is true then what's the ' best offer ' here ? I haven't heard of anything better than I already have .

Well, if we are to just assume the "offer" is 100% true then Islam has a much better afterlife plan than Christianity.

 

[John1.12]

It will be never unless Jesus lied or the Bible is in error.
How do you explain these verses?

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

The Book of Revelation refers to a man who will come with another name, not to Jesus.

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

All these events took place when Baha'u'llah came and the rest will be fulfilled during the messianic age which started in 1852 AD and will last no less than 1000 years.

No, all the Christians are not going to go up in the air all at once and meet Jesus, defying gravity.
No, it is a misinterpretation of the Book of Revelation. There is no rapture and there is no tribulation. Apparently you believe everything you have been taught by Christianity in spite of the fact that it makes no sense and it is in-congruent with what Jesus says in the gospels.

Did revelation stop at Moses ? Did God stop revealing at Abraham ? Noah? Amos ? Acts ? The Gospels ? Your mind is being played with my friend. Your absorbing teachings that are literally twisting the bible for you . Just as happened to me prior to me being a Christian.

 

[John1.12]

Well, if we are to just assume the "offer" is 100% true then Islam has a much better afterlife plan than Christianity.

How so ? And there's no assurance in Islam. You have to ' earn ' it .

 

[John1.12]

Then why is what Paul wrote so contrary to what Jesus taught?

“That the figure of the Nazarene, as delivered to us in Mark’s Gospel, is decisively different from the pre-existent risen Christ proclaimed by Paul, is something long recognized by thinkers like Kant, Fichte, Schelling, Herder and Goethe, to mention only a few. The distinction between ‘the religion of Christ’ and ‘the Christian religion’ goes back to Lessing. Critical theological research has now disputed the idea of an uninterrupted chain of historical succession: Luther’s belief that at all times a small handful of true Christians preserved the true apostolic faith. Walter Bauer (226) and Martin Werner (227) have brought evidence that there was conflict from the outset about the central questions of dogma. It has become clear that the beliefs of those who had seen and heard Jesus in the flesh --- the disciples and the original community--- were at odds to an extraordinary degree with the teaching of Paul, who claimed to have been not only called by a vision but instructed by the heavenly Christ. The conflict at Antioch between the apostles Peter and Paul, far more embittered as research has shown (228) than the Bible allows us to see, was the most fateful split in Christianity, which in the Acts of the Apostles was ‘theologically camouflaged’. (229)

Paul, who had never seen Jesus, showed great reserve towards the Palestinian traditions regarding Jesus’ life. (230) The historical Jesus and his earthly life are without significance for Paul. In all his epistles the name ‘Jesus’ occurs only 15 times, the title ‘Christ’ 378 times. In Jesus’s actual teaching he shows extraordinarily little interest. It is disputed whether in all his epistles he makes two, three or four references to sayings by Jesus. (231) It is not Jesus’ teaching, which he cannot himself have heard at all (short of hearing it in a vision), that is central to his own mission, but the person of the Redeemer and His death on the Cross.

Jesus, who never claimed religious worship for himself was not worshipped in the original community, is for Paul the pre-existent risen Christ….

This was the ‘Fall’ of Christianity: that Paul with his ‘Gospel’, which became the core of Christian dogma formation, conquered the world, (237) while the historic basis of Christianity was declared a heresy….

Pauline heresy served as the basis for Christian orthodoxy, and the legitimate Church was outlawed as heretical’. (240) The ‘small handful of true Christians’ was Nazarene Christianity, which was already extinct in the fourth century……

The centerpiece then, of Christian creedal doctrine, that of Redemption, is something of which—in the judgment of the theologian E. Grimm (244) --- Jesus himself knew nothing; and it goes back to Paul. “

(Udo Schaefer, Light Shineth in Darkness, Studies in revelation after Christ )

How Paul changed the course of Christianity

The Gosepls are transitional. So is the book Of Acts . When Israel ( which is the primary focus of Jesus earthly ministry ) finally rejects their messaih ( Acts 7 ) the transition and focus goes to the gentiles .
Then we get an apostle to the gentiles ,Paul. Who Jesus gives the instruction to the Church to .

 

[Spirit of Light]

How so ? And there's no assurance in Islam. You have to ' earn ' it .

Isnt it good to earn something instead of just getting it given to you?
How much do you actually learn about your self, if you get everything you want just handed to you?

Honestly i never been more happy about the spiritual path than i am now since i converted to Sufism.

 

[exchemist]

For want of a better phrase . The point is all religions are making a claim.. A way . An exclusive ' path ' that is exclusive. A '
of how to attain or appease a diety through self effort/ denial ect . Even the ones that say " all religions lead to God " ..That is also an exclusive claim.

The main role of religion, it seems to me, is not so much to make "claims" - though of course many indeed do - as to provide a guide for living your life.

This is actually another reason why I find biblical literalist evangelical protestantism unattractive, as it appears to fail to do that. Its adherents often seem to strut around thinking they are "saved" and that's it, job done, no need to worry about attitudes or behaviour, because salvation is already in the bag.

 

[sayak83]

The flesh is the issue . The sinfull desires ect are due to the ' body of flesh " . This all changes at glorification for those in Christ . So all those issues go away for me upon the redemption of my body at the return of Christ .

We have moved away from the discussion. Discussing what the Christians believe about sin and flesh is not the point of this thread. You have not explained what reason is there to prefer a limited individuated eternal existence in a heaven in contrast to the realization that one's self and true self is the Limitless Eternal Absolute Itself. What you said was that you were unable to go beyond the limited self in your practice. That is neither here nor there. Other have. I have. The OP asked that which religion provided the greatest promise. How can being the Absolute Itself and with no chance of eternal damnation and with infinite number of second chances to become this Absolute possibly be less desirable than what the Christian promise you are speaking of?

We can discuss why you could not undergo this transformation if you want. But that is somewhat irrelevant to the discussion here is it not.

 

[oldbadger]

The discussion here is based on what the requirements for your belief/ religion are .

Nothing.
The idea of choosing religion to fulfil requirements is most strange, I think.

What is required of you to do in order to attain. Its immediate benefits/ results and its future promise / fulfilment.

Nothing.
The idea of offering benefits.... And punishments... Is a bad sell, imo.

Now this of course is based on whether or not said belief is true or not.

Any religions offering rewards for service and terror for refusal are con artists, imo.

But first let's discuss what's on offer here and my argument is , I don't believe anyone can offer more than I already have ,as a bible believing Christian . Not immediately or in the future.

On offer?
Special offers?
If you've been sold on the basis of offers, rewards, benefits etc...... then it was probably a sell.

Honestly.

 

[John1.12]

Isnt it good to earn something instead of just getting it given to you?
How much do you actually learn about your self, if you get everything you want just handed to you?

Honestly i never been more happy about the spiritual path than i am now since i converted to Sufism.

If you meant like a wage or bed and keep maybe . But not eternal life , redemption and forgiveness.

 

[Spirit of Light]

If you meant like a wage or bed and keep maybe . But not eternal life , redemption and forgiveness.

I meant spiritually. I dont think of materslistic things

 

[blü 2]

The discussion here is based on what the requirements for your belief/ religion are . What is required of you to do in order to attain. Its immediate benefits/ results and its future promise / fulfilment.
Now this of course is based on whether or not said belief is true or not. But first let's discuss what's on offer here and my argument is , I don't believe anyone can offer more than I already have ,as a bible believing Christian . Not immediately or in the future.

Having given the matter a lot of thought, I proceed on three assumptions:

1. That a world exists external to the self
2. That the senses are capable of informing the self about that world
3. That reason is a valid tool.​

The world external to the self is the same thing as objective reality (usually just 'reality'), nature, the realm of the physical sciences &c.

I define truth as a quality of statements, and a statement is true to the extent that it corresponds with / accurately reflects objective reality. No truth is absolute, but it can be retrospective. (Thus eg it was once true that the world was flat but seen from now, it was never true.)

And note that here the test for truth is objective.

​

I hold with reasoned enquiry as the most successful way of understanding reality, and with its subset, scientific method, as the most objective, most successful method of exploring, describing and seeking to explain reality that we have.

The reward for me is having access to the best understanding of reality that we have. That includes objective approaches to understanding the self, of course.

I think understanding the truth about these things, to the extent that truth is accessible to us at any particular time, is easily the best deal out there.

 

[John1.12]

Isnt it good to earn something instead of just getting it given to you?
How much do you actually learn about your self, if you get everything you want just handed to you?

Honestly i never been more happy about the spiritual path than i am now since i converted to Sufism.

I know many happy atheists .

 

[John1.12]

I meant spiritually. I dont think of materslistic things

The bible says without the shedding of blood there's no forgiveness of sins .So you could never 'earn 'heaven .

 

[McBell]

And there's no assurance in Islam.

You flat out said:

this discussion could be had on the basis of if it is true
​

And you even reply to my post that flat out says:

assume the "offer" is 100% true
​

And now, in your very first reply to my very first post, the very first thing you do is change your tune....

 

[Spirit of Light]

I know many happy atheists .

I am not an atheist

 

[Spirit of Light]

The bible says without the shedding of blood there's no forgiveness of sins .So you could never 'earn 'heaven .

Ohhh

 

[SalixIncendium]

Yes you have to recieve a gift. And yes its free if its a gift. But you would be surprised by how much within Christianity how this fact gets twisted .

I can assure you I wouldn't.

 

[SalixIncendium]

It would be something that's better than what I have in Jesus, specifically. There are many other claims offering ' truth ' , ' a way ' ,a path ect . The discussion is IF its true then why is it better ?

If I didn't know better, I might think you're looking to trade up.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Not one verse was NT .