Does the Bible mention Islam?

[TransmutingSoul]

I questioned the Baha'is on the "sackcloth" interpretation in another thread. Sackcloth... "chiefly worn as a token of mourning by the Israelites. It was furthermore a sign of submission (I Kings xx. 30 et seq.), and was occasionally worn by the Prophets."

One of their "infallible" prophets said that it is "old" raiment? No, there is no definition that makes it old. And, I suppose, a person could be wearing a brand new sackcloth and it would still be meant to be a sign of submission or mourning. Thanks for noticing that.

You see what you are looking for CG.

I see a perectly reasonable explanation.

If a person walked through the door wearing old or new sackcloth as clothing, then I suspect the first reaction by those witnessing this in todays world would be the vision of old cloths.

But you have mentioned another thing it can be, that is Submission and Islam is a Faith of Submission, that also supports the Revelation of Muhammad.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

In regards Revelation 11:7 according to Abdu'l-Baha;

“And when they shall have finished their testimony”

... means when they should have performed that which they are commanded, and should have delivered the divine message, promoting the Law of God and propagating the heavenly teachings, to the intent that the signs of spiritual life might be manifest in souls, and the light of the virtues of the world of humanity might shine forth, until complete development should be brought about among the nomad tribes.

This beast means the Umayyads who attacked them from the pit of error, and who rose against the religion of Muḥammad and against the reality of ‘Alí—in other words, the love of God. —that is to say, a spiritual war, meaning that the beast would act in entire opposition to the teachings, customs and institutions of these two witnesses, to such an extent that the virtues and perfections which were diffused by the power of those two witnesses among the peoples and tribes would be entirely dispelled, and the animal nature and carnal desires would conquer. Therefore, this beast making war against them would gain the victory—meaning that the darkness of error coming from this beast was to have ascendency over the horizons of the world, and kill those two witnesses—in other words, that it would destroy the spiritual life which they spread abroad in the midst of the nation, and entirely remove the divine laws and teachings, treading under foot the Religion of God. Nothing would thereafter remain but a lifeless body without spirit.

So once again the beast symbolises corrupted Islam through the duration of its dispensation. The final Caliphate was the Ottomans. It was from the Ottoman and Persian Empires the Baha'i Faith emerged or was born from. This is made clear in Revelation 12:1-5. The crown of twelve stars represents the 12 Imams of Shi'a Islam. The child is the Bab who represents the Baha'i Faith. Time will tell if the prophecy about bringing God's just rule to the earth will come to pass.

So that means that from 661AD Islam has been a "lifeless body without spirit"? But hold on, the Umayyads "killed" the two witnesses in 661AD... and how long were the two witnesses dead on the street? Three and a half days, right? But that doesn't add up to nothing significant, so let's make the days into years then back into days then back into years and we get 1260 years. Perfect, that's a number we can use. But not if we count it from when the bodies were "killed", but if we go back to before Islam was spiritually killed, back to 621AD. Now we can add the 1260 years and get what we want, 1844.

But wait, what's this in verse 8 of chapter 11? The bodies lie in the street of the great city? Which great city? It says it is mystically called Sodom and Egypt? Where's that? Oh, but it also says where their Lord was crucified. So who was the "Lord" of the two witnesses and where was this Lord of theirs crucified? I know it sounds like this should be Jesus, but why would Jesus be the Lord of Muhammad and Ali?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Jesus speaking in the book of John 6:63,
Saying---"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"
Notice Jesus saying ( the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit)

This means those that have ears to hear the spirit of the words Jesus speaking.

Jesus spoke many parables to people.
Matthew 13:13---"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand"


You see, The words Jesus speaks are spiritual, they that hear the spirit of the words of Jesus, will hear. But those who know not the spirit of the words Jesus, hear not.
1 Corinthians 2:14--"14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"

The words thatJesus speak are Spiritual, and they are spiritually discerned.

Jesus is God, this to is Spiritually discerned.
but the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him.
Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I agree that Jesus is a spiritual, not physical incarnation of God.

Baha'is use phrase Manifestation of God.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The quotes are disingenuous. They are not what Jesus meant. This is clear because
using them in your way contradicts other things Jesus and his Disciples said of Him.
Even King Nebuchadnezzar had the vision of the "Son of God."

I'm not sure of your point. I am a Baha'i so believe Jesus to be the 'Son of God'.

In regards the use of scripture St Paul has indicated:

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."
1 Timothy 3:16-17

 

[CG Didymus]

I wonder if you are making this more complicated than it needs to be?

This is taking the verses out of Revelation in order and describing some basic things about the different beasts and dragons. It's not complicated for me. I can see how it is for you, 'cause you've got to get this all to make some kind of sense that makes Muhammad, The Bab, and Baha'u'llah all in there in the Revelation prophecies. But, it seems like you're doing alright.

I've read up to post 320. I'm going to read on. I can't wait to hear how you explain the wounded beast giving power to that last beast that has the number. And then, how you kick that number all the way back to the first beast that started in 661AD. Now, to me, that's complicated... or convoluted, but, even though I question it, it's better than most explanations I've heard.

 

[CG Didymus]

You see what you are looking for CG.

I see a perectly reasonable explanation.

If a person walked through the door wearing old or new sackcloth as clothing, then I suspect the first reaction by those witnessing this in todays world would be the vision of old cloths.

But you have mentioned another thing it can be, that is Submission and Islam is a Faith of Submission, that also supports the Revelation of Muhammad.

Regards Tony

Yes, submission would have been a great answer to why the two witnesses were wearing sackcloth. But, it's Abdul Baha that says that it meant "old" clothes.

 

[CG Didymus]

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Revelation 13:15

The second beast, the Abbasid Caliphate, was able to revive the image of the first beast, the Umayyad Caliphate, so it appeared to be alive again. The Abbasids enforced their new regime with great severity, ruthlessly murdering even those who had helped them to gain power.

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Revelation 13:16-17

The marks were the two taxes imposed on non-Muslims. The 'kharaj' was a business and land tax imposed on the working ('right') hand; the 'jizya' was a poll tax imposed on the 'forehead.' Trading was forbidden by non-Muslims unless they had paid either the poll tax (assessed by the 'name' of their Faith) or the business tax (assessed by the 'number' of their business). Originally, the modest kharaj and jizya were intended as benign symbols of religious tolerance and as gentle encouragement to convert to Islam. Under the Umayyad and Abbasid Caliphs, the kharaj and jizya were radically transformed into sources of great personal wealth and were used as capital for imperial expansion.

Many non-Muslims fled the realm of the beast to avoid paying these taxes.

Kharaj - Wikipedia

Jizya - Wikipedia

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Revelation 13:18

Check this link out regards ancient numerology that was applied to the Koine Greek the Bible was written in.

Gematria - Wikipedia

The reader of the Apocalypse is challenged to work out the gematrical value of the 'name of the beast. From Revelation 13:1 verse 1 the title rests upon "seven heads." Also, the title must be sacred, since its expropriation by the beast was an act of blasphemy. And, since the text of the apocalypse is in Koine Greek, the answer should be in Koine.

From the various clues in this and other chapters of the Apocalypse, one solution is 'The Caliph.' To test this theory we transliterating the Arabic name into Koine to determine whether its gematrical value is, indeed, 666.

We must define certain transcriptions for the purpose of presenting the result in English letters:

[ARABIC] [KOINE] [GEMATRICAL VALUE] [TRANSCRIPTION]

[Al (definite article)] [' + Omicron] [70] ['O] [

Kef] [Kappa (soft)] [20] [K]

[alif] [alpha] [1] [a]

[lam] [double lambda (hard)] [60] [ll]

[ye] [epsilon + iota (diphthong)] [15] [ei]

[fe] [phi] [500] [ph]

Transcribed: The Caliph = 'O Kalleiph

Gematrical value: 70 + 20 + 1 + 60 + 15 + 500 = 666

The Arabic equivalent of the Anglo-Saxon name 'God' is ''Allah.' In the Arabic gematria, ''Allah' has the value 66. The number '6' is deemed to be the 'number of mediation' by numerologists. Thus '666' has as one of its meanings, 'The Mediator to 'Allah.' The illegitimate caliphate blasphemously claimed that role to be their own.

The date of the usurpation of the caliph Ali by the House was 661 CE. Most biblical scholars, in agreement with the Gospel of Matthew, place the Birth of Jesus sometime prior to the death of Herod the Great who died in the year 4-5 BCE. Placing the 'true' historical date of His Birth at about 5 BCE, and accounting for the missing zero year in BOTH the Christian and common calendars, places the origin of the illegitimate caliphate at about 666 'ANNO DOMINI.'

Anno Domini - Wikipedia

Prior to joining RF I never cared for these types of exercises. None of this has anything to do with why I became a Baha'i. When I first heard Baha'u'llah was the Return of Christ at a fireside it made perfect sense at the time as it does now. Knowledge can be a great barrier between the seeker and what he desires. The book of Revelation is there for a reason. I think its one of many tests for sorting out who is ready to become a Baha'i and who is not. Anyone who is attached to the traditional evangelical Christian approach to interpreting these verses will be prevented from seeing Baha'u'llah as the Return of Christ. Its as if clouds of great power have veiled their eyes from perceiving the truth (Matthew 24:30). The test isn't to solve the riddle, to let go of the illusion we have. Perhaps the one who genuinely solves the riddle, is the one who cared little for it in the first place.

Now this is much better... the number 666 means Caliph or "mediator to Allah. Or, is this better? 'Cause, this number of 666 is only attributed to one beast, the last one. This beast was the one that people couldn't buy or sell unless they had his mark.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, submission would have been a great answer to why the two witnesses were wearing sackcloth. But, it's Abdul Baha that says that it meant "old" clothes.

The explanations are not exhausted by one talk given by Abdul'baha give. We are asked to immerse ourselves in the ocean of Gods Words so that we can unravel the mysteries. We have quoted the scriptural tradition of seventy meanings.

I personally do not find it easy unraveling the metephor, but I have found the most useful key, to me the key promissed by Christ, is the Oneness of God, that all the Major religions are from our One God.

Puts a whole new light on all scriptures.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The date of the usurpation of the caliph Ali by the House was 661 CE. Most biblical scholars, in agreement with the Gospel of Matthew, place the Birth of Jesus sometime prior to the death of Herod the Great who died in the year 4-5 BCE. Placing the 'true' historical date of His Birth at about 5 BCE, and accounting for the missing zero year in BOTH the Christian and common calendars, places the origin of the illegitimate caliphate at about 666 'ANNO DOMINI.'

From your link about "anno domini". "This dating system was devised in 525 by Dionysius Exiguus of Scythia Minor, but was not widely used until after 800."
So the Book of Revelation has a number, 666, that refers to a year in a calendar that didn't exist until 525AD and was not widely used until after 800AD? So was that calendar even being used in Arabia during the time of Muhammad?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Now this is much better... the number 666 means Caliph or "mediator to Allah. Or, is this better? 'Cause, this number of 666 is only attributed to one beast, the last one. This beast was the one that people couldn't buy or sell unless they had his mark.

The thing to also think about is progressive revelation. That all religions go through the process of birth and death, or sunrise and sunset, or all 4 seasons.

In that sense one can not seperate the beginning from the end and which all events happen in between. They are part of the one dispensation. We are told that these events also repeat.

It was not the Baha'i that came up with 1844, remember that was William Miller preaching this in America. That it is also the year 1260 should suggest we do take the Muslim revelation into account. How uncanny that a declaration was made in that year, a declaration that has produced fruit of the spirit and prophecy that has unfolded.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The explanations are not exhausted by one talk given by Abdul'baha give. We are asked to immerse ourselves in the ocean of Gods Words so that we can unravel the mysteries. We have quoted the scriptural tradition of seventy meanings.

I personally do not find it easy unraveling the metephor, but I have found the most useful key, to me the key promissed by Christ, is the Oneness of God, that all the Major religions are from our One God.

Puts a whole new light on all scriptures.

Regards Tony

So, if we have explanations from Abdul'baha… aren't those "official" or even "infallible" to Baha'is? So if you or I come up with profound sounding meanings, what are they? To they carry any weight at all with the Baha'i Faith? Well, for sure not mine, but how about yours?

And which "major" religions does Christianity say are from "our" One God? No, that's what Baha'is say. Even if there is only One True God, there are many "false" gods and "false" religions... and even those that Baha'is say are true, in reality, even those don't teach what the Baha'is believe is true. So, that makes them false too, doesn't it?

Hey, and I thought you were busy working and didn't have time for all this posting? What happened? You're back to a "normal" work schedule?

 

[CG Didymus]

The thing to also think about is progressive revelation. That all religions go through the process of birth and death, or sunrise and sunset, or all 4 seasons.

In that sense one can not seperate the beginning from the end and which all events happen in between. They are part of the one dispensation. We are told that these events also repeat.

It was not the Baha'i that came up with 1844, remember that was William Miller preaching this in America. That it is also the year 1260 should suggest we do take the Muslim revelation into account. How uncanny that a declaration was made in that year, a declaration that has produced fruit of the spirit and prophecy that has unfolded.

Regards Tony

I'm so glad that you brought that up. The Two Witnesses get killed. That means that Islam is spiritually dead and in the hands of beasts and dragons until The Bab declares in 1844. So it had a birth in 621AD and died in 661AD? And, when was Christianity's spring, summer, fall, and winter? Or, did it too go right from being born to a corrupt mess and virtually dead spiritually?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, if we have explanations from Abdul'baha… aren't those "official" or even "infallible" to Baha'is? So if you or I come up with profound sounding meanings, what are they? To they carry any weight at all with the Baha'i Faith? Well, for sure not mine, but how about yours?

And which "major" religions does Christianity say are from "our" One God? No, that's what Baha'is say. Even if there is only One True God, there are many "false" gods and "false" religions... and even those that Baha'is say are true, in reality, even those don't teach what the Baha'is believe is true. So, that makes them false too, doesn't it?

Hey, and I thought you were busy working and didn't have time for all this posting? What happened? You're back to a "normal" work schedule?

Small amount if time in Morning before I start, smoko, lunch and a bit before sleep.

You may note, no research posted

I guess I was lucky as I can only ever remember consider there was One God, it made sense to me. Muhammad made it much more clear, but they were talking to people that were yet to visualize a world if people in One Faith. Makes sense the Message is given in an age where we know how small we are in the scheme of things.

Faith to me is more common sense. Stands to reason if all we know comes from that One Source, as it will all lead us to that source.

Regards Tony

 

[W3bcrowf3r]

Jesus is God.

It took Muhammad to show Christianity what a false prophet Muhammad is.

Muhammad offered Christianity nothing, only that he is a false prophet.

As you said ( One may have to consider who are the spiritually knowledgeable and who are not. The hint here is the source is no man)

Only those who have understanding and knowledge, shall receive the things of the Spirit of God.

As it is written---"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"

Only those who have Spiritual understanding shall receive the things that be of God. But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him.

As you say --> ( Jesus, in the Station of the son was Christ, born of the Holy Spirit, a Messenger of God. As such, Jesus is not God, but if we look at Christ, the Son, then we can see naught but God.)

Jesus is the Christ of God, born of a woman, is God in the flesh body of Jesus.
If we look at Christ, then we see God as he is,
God made himself a body and incased himself in the body of Jesus.
There you have Jesus is God in the flesh body of Jesus.

As it is written Matthew 1:23--"Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us"

Therefore you have Jesus ( Emmanuel) which being interpreted is, God with us.

Therefore Jesus is God with us.

You should learn Greek and stop reading trinitarian translations. You are only deluding yourself. Or are you waiting on Judgement Day when Christ will tell you that you were worshipping the trinity doctrine while you should worship Hes Father only.

There are enough names with God in them. That doesn't mean all those persons are God..

God is with the people through Jesus Christ. That's what Immanuel means.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm so glad that you brought that up. The Two Witnesses get killed. That means that Islam is spiritually dead and in the hands of beasts and dragons until The Bab declares in 1844. So it had a birth in 621AD and died in 661AD? And, when was Christianity's spring, summer, fall, and winter? Or, did it too go right from being born to a corrupt mess and virtually dead spiritually?

From the way I have reconciled it is that the prophecy just gives us an accurate time line for the Dispensation of Muhammad. From Other prophecies it was found 1844 was the expected return, year known, but what day, what hr? That year also 1260 and then we find that there is prophecy about 1260 years.

Now each event within that revelation will also have specific points that identify with the Prophecy. It does not unfold in a logical sequence, this is one thing you find with the writings of Baha'u'llah. Revelation comes like lightening from a storm, a flash here and a flash there, but in the end we know it as the one storm.

The Revelation of Muhammad was one of Negation, the negative coming before the positive, we have discussed that before.

Personally I see both Christianity and Islam have had long and hard winters.

Regards Tony

 

[Faithofchristian]

Thus your would offer your literal interpretation in preference to Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah, those that have claimed a Message from God, lived the message and produced the fruits of the Spirit.

To do that, one by default makes a claim that they speak for God, in a station of gifted knowledge.

Dangerous ground.

Regards Tony

Muhammad never lived the message.

Muhammad say in Qu'ran 5:47--"So let the people of the Gospel rule according to what Allah revealed in it. Those who do not rule according to what Allah revealed are the sinners"

Muhammad never ruled according to what Allah revealed in the gospel.

Gospels, say, Jesus is God. Jesus is Son of God. Jesus is the Christ of God.

Muhammad not rule according to what
Allah ( God) revealed in the gospels.

Muhammad tell others to follow what
Allah ( God) revealed in the Gospels,
But Muhammad not follow what Allah
( God) revealed in Gospels himself.

Muhammad no follow his own word, tell others to follow gospel, but Muhammad not follow gospel.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Muhammad never lived the message.

Muhammad say in Qu'ran 5:47--"So let the people of the Gospel rule according to what Allah revealed in it. Those who do not rule according to what Allah revealed are the sinners"

Muhammad never ruled according to what Allah revealed in the gospel.

That is your interpretation. Muhammad in that passage, to me, is saying that the Christains must accept the explanation of the Gospel as given in the Quran by Allah.

By not accepting the explanations given in the Quran, Christianity took the wrong path and failed to live the Gospel Law. If they had accepted the Message in the Quran that was the right path, the path the Gospels had pointed them to.

Regards Tony

 

[Faithofchristian]

I agree that Jesus is a spiritual, not physical incarnation of God.

Baha'is use phrase Manifestation of God.

At the time Jesus was here on earth, Jesus was physically of flesh and blood.

Now Jesus in heaven, now Jesus is Spirit.

John 14:26--"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you"

The Comforter is the Spirit of Jesus. Not Muhammad.
Muhammad say follow the gospels, but Muhammad not follow gospel himself.

Qu'ran 5:47---"Muhammad say in Qu'ran 5:47--"So let the people of the Gospel rule according to what Allah revealed in it. Those who do not rule according to what Allah revealed are the sinners"

So that makes Muhammad a sinner, not follow gospels himself.

Gospels, say Jesus is God, Jesus is Son of God, Jesus is the Christ of God.
Muhammad not follow gospels himself, makes Muhammad a sinner.

 

[Faithofchristian]

You should learn Greek and stop reading trinitarian translations. You are only deluding yourself. Or are you waiting on Judgement Day when Christ will tell you that you were worshipping the trinity doctrine while you should worship Hes Father only.

There are enough names with God in them. That doesn't mean all those persons are God..

God is with the people through Jesus Christ. That's what Immanuel means.

Whether a person pronounce the name
( Emmanuel) or ( Immanuel) the meaning is still the same, (God with us.)

God is Christ Jesus, Christ Jesus is God.
Either way is still the same, Christ Jesus is God the Father.

 

[PruePhillip]

Whether a person pronounce the name
( Emmanuel) or ( Immanuel) the meaning is still the same, (God with us.)

God is Christ Jesus, Christ Jesus is God.
Either way is still the same, Christ Jesus is God the Father.

And maybe the Disciples were God the father because Jesus prayed that
"they may be one as we are."
Instead of living as Jesus asked His people to live, and embracing His
simplicity, many spend their intellectual energies (and vanity) in arguing
about esoteric issues.