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Featured Does the Bible mention Islam?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by adrian009, Nov 5, 2018.

?
  1. Yes

    16.7%
  2. No

    64.6%
  3. Maybe

    6.3%
  4. I don't know

    8.3%
  5. This poll doesn't reflect my thinking

    4.2%
  1. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Well-Known Member

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    I was just wondering, because the prophecies make it sound more like the Jewish nation is restored, more than allowing Jews to start returning.
     
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  2. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    How else did it get to all Nations?

    Well that is just not true :) A christain may decide thats what they say.

    Regards Tony
     
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  3. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Or Baha'u'llah is the fulfillment and thus what Baha'u'llah says is correct.

    Baha'u'llah has said they are in error.of interpretation.

    A Baha'i beleives this to be the case.

    Regards Tony
     
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  4. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    As you say the Christians believe the Holy Spirit in Acts of the Apostles 2:1-4 to be the same Holy Spirit Christ talks about in the gospel of John.

    I agree the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost but that is a separate event from the Comforter being sent later.

    At Pentecost they were empowered to go out and proclaim the gospel Jesus had taught them. They weren't being told something new that they couldn't bear to hear when Jesus was still alive. That doesn't make sense. What makes more sense is the comfort refers to a new Revelation from God according to the more advanced capacity of people in the future to receive that message.

    Lets look at those verses in the Gospel of John more closely .

    John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    So if it was 'all truth' they could not near to hear, why were not ready for 'all truth' at that time? That description best fits Baha’u’llah who revealed 'truths' that clearly the disciples of Christ were not ready for at that time. Of course 'all truth' can't literally be all truth so meant relative to what Christ taught.

    Jesus was “a Comforter” because Jesus brought the Holy Spirit. Muhammad and Baha’u’llah were other Comforters and also had the Spirit of truth.

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    It is the Comforter who fulfils these verses in John, not the Holy spirit at Pentecost spoken in Acts.

    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    Muhammad and Baha’u’llah did all these things as Jesus promised.
     
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  5. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    That's speculation. Obviously the Jews were unhappy with Jesus for all sorts of reasons including His claim to be the Messiah and Son of God (Matthew 26:63-64). The Roman's were complicit in the crucifixion as well.
     
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  6. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    This sounds like a very familiar question from you.

    As you know the Christians and Baha'is believe in the same gospel. We simply have different understandings as to what Christ taught. Obviously, verse like John 14:6, the literal resurrection and existence of Satan we see differently.

    We do believe in the Virgin birth, Jesus as 'Son of God' and the Divinity of Christ. We don't remove parts of the Bible to suit our own theology.
     
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  7. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    As you said ( It makes no sense that the Comforter is a disembodied Holy Spirit because a disembodied Holy Spirit cannot do the things mentioned in the following verses)

    That's all because you have no understanding nor knowledge how the Spirit of Gods works, Nor what the Spirit God's is.

    As Christ Jesus said in John 14:26--"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you"

    Ok, now notice Jesus said ( the Comforter, which is the (Holy Spirit) This being God's Spirit, Which has nothing at all do with man.
    Ok, now notice Jesus said ( Whom the Father shall send in my name)
    God the Father shall send his Spirit in the name of Christ Jesus, So those who pray in the name of Christ Jesus, shall recognize what Spirit is in the speaking to them in their prayers.is it the Spirit of Christ Jesus or is it the Spirit of Satan's, that's speaking unto them in their prayers.Trying to deceive them.
    Ok, now notice Jesus also said ( he shall teach you all things)
    What this means is, that the Spirit of God's that is sent in the name of Christ Jesus, shall teach all things in the Scriptures,bible. To those who are the followers of Christ Jesus.
    Ok, now notice Jesus also said, ( and bring all things to your remembrance whatsoever I have said unto you)

    Upon reading, studying the scriptures, bible, the Spirit of God the Father, shall bring all things in the scriptures,bible, to those that believe in Christ Jesus, back to our remembrance what Christ Jesus has said throughout the scriptures,bible.

    You said ( The argument about Jesus being a sinner is the same argument the Jews used about Christ breaking the Sabbath. However both Muhammad and Jesus had the authority from God to bring new laws, reinterpret the existing ones and dispense with those that were no longer relevant)
    I've read to studied the bible throughout, but I have found nothing about Muhammad.
    You really don't believe, that Jesus would actually hide things from his followers.

    Muhammad had no authority from God,
    If Muhammad did, Then it would be very easy and understandable throughout the Scriptures, bible, for those who believe Christ Jesus as God the Father. To read very plainly. But not one word to be found in all the Scriptures,bible, about Muhammad.
    You really believe, that if Muhammad was there in the scriptures,bible, I would be here debating with you about whether Muhammad is in the scriptures,bible, that would be very foolishness of me to do.

    If Muhammad was mention in the scriptures,bible, I would be reinforcing Muhammad in the scriptures,bible and not going against.

    As a Christian believer, believing in my Christian, bible, it would be very foolishness for me to go against what I believe in my Christian bible.

    For what reason would I have to go against Muhammad, if Christ Jesus did make mentioning of Muhammad, that would be for me to go against Christ Jesus himself.
    Now as to why, I a Christian and a follower of Christ Jesus, would want to go against Christ Jesus who I believe in. To be God the Father himself.

    Christians are the only people in the whole world, who bare the name of Christ Jesus.
    Christ = Christian
    Christian = Christ
     
  8. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Then I disagree with the evangelicals.
    It's not important, like most things religious people chose to discuss,
    but the Gospel first came to the "house of Israel" and then to the Gentiles.
    Paul spoke of a "falling away" of the Gentiles - so that is what informs
    me of this "times of the Gentiles."
    In Babylonian times there were few God fearing Gentiles.

    I take a few dates of significance with the Jews - 1897 was the beginning
    of Zionism, and 1967 was Jerusalem returning to Jewish sovereignty.
    Jesus said the Gentiles time would be fulfilled when Jerusalem was back
    in Jewish hands. And this event took place in the moral and cultural ferment
    of the 1960's.

    Not that any of this is important.
     
  9. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Can you explain exactly who those Jews were, that stood against Christ Jesus.

    Christ Jesus in his own words, tells exactly who those Jews are. They are not the Jews of Israel, as you may think they are.
    Many people have this problem of not knowing which Jews are of Israel and which Jews are not of Israel.

    Throughout the scriptures, bible, explains which Jews is which Jews of Israel.
     
  10. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    I am quite impressed with the SEQUENCE of events in Genesis' creation
    account. It's precisely in agreement with science.
    And I am impressed that bit by bit the background to the Old Testament turn
    up in archaeological digs. Now we know there IS such a thing as a genetic
    Jew (even genes for the priestly tribe of Levi) and there WAS a "House of
    David" and there WAS a distinct Jewish culture and literature in the Bronze
    Age etc etc etc..

    The BROAD THRUST of biblical prophecy is this - that the Hebrews will
    build a nation in their promised land. They will have their law, priesthood
    and even a worldly king. They would lose their land, twice. The Messiah
    will come to Israel but he will be rejected the first time. Israel will be
    scattered over the world, in exile and slavery again. In the latter days
    they will come again to Israel and take it back with the sword.
    That's pretty well what has happened.
     
  11. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    If we Use that same argument against Christ, that Jesus is not plainly shown in the Jewish scriptures, you are free to show where Jesus the Christ is mentioned clearly in the Torah.

    If one can not, then one must have to admit that this line of arguement is very weak.

    Regards Tony
     
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  12. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    I have something to share with you.

    In the 4 Gospels Jesus said ( For this is my blood of the new testament)
    Matthew 26:28.

    What was the need for a new testament?

    The reason for a new testament, to add the Gentiles into the new testament scriptures.
    Where as in the old testament scriptures, was only about Israel.
    Now the new testament scriptures, Gentiles are added in with Israel.
     
  13. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    With other events that have happened and that are still yet to unfold, that will see all Nations flow up the mountain of the Lord and the Law will go out from Zion.

    It is an amazing time we live in, a God given bounty to live in this day!

    Regards Tony
     
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  14. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    We are discussing religious texts that are nearly two thousand years ago. The first gospel was most likely the gospel of Mark written at least 30 years of after Jesus was crucified. The last to be written was most likely the gospel of John about 90 AD. No scholars can agree that on who wrote them but they were probably composed to meet the needs of the early Christian church at the time. Of the four authors, the gospel of John is most likely to have been written by an eye witness (the apostle John) to what Jesus said and did.

    We need to consider historic and scriptural context when providing an exegesis. I don't agree with the evangelical Christians about a number of matters but I do agree with the importance of the Jews returning to their home land as coinciding with the end of one religious are and the beginning of another. Others include he gospel being preached to all nations and the appearance of signs in the heavenly realm (Matthew 24:29-30).

    Like most history there are many important milestones.

    It is if you believe in the Return of Christ and what the gospels say about events surrounding His second coming.
     
    #394 adrian009, Nov 13, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
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  15. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    Ho but your wrong, Jesus is mention in the Tanaka,Tora. Seeing how the Tanaka and the Tora are the same.

    As you wish, you have the Jewish Torah and the bible to compare to each other.

    Bible Isaiah 7:14---"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel"

    Torah Isaiah 7:14--"
    4Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel"

    Bible
    Matthew 1:23 " Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us"

    There you have Christ Jesus, that was born of a virgin woman, Mary the Great,Great, Great grand daughter of king David of Israel.
     
  16. Saint Frankenstein

    Saint Frankenstein ᛘᛁᛏᚾᛁᚴᚼᛏ᛫ᛋᚢᚾ
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    *Torah
    *Tanakh

    Torah = the first five books of the Bible, the ones traditionally attributed to Moses
    Tanakh = the entire Jewish Bible

    Just trying to help.
     
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  17. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    I already know that, but some people don't know that.
    Thank you for your information.
     
    #397 Faithofchristian, Nov 13, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
  18. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg Ocean Immersion
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    Thus you offer passages that have been interpreted by Christains to say they apply to Jesus, even though Jesus or Christ is not mentioned. It is interesting one passage you quoted does not mention virgin, the Torah passage.

    Personally I do see they are applicable to Jesus.

    I guess that is all that needs to be said.

    Regards Tony
     
  19. adrian009

    adrian009 Well-Known Member
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    A more respectful manner of communicating would be to say we have a different point of view. Instead your thinking is "I'm right, so you must be wrong". That's how many people who call themselves Christians think. That's why they end up disagreeing with each other and falling out with each other so badly. The early Christian thinker Tertullian noted how the Christians love each other. Today we can see how the Christians hate each other and everyone else besides.

    For a Baha'i courtesy is the princess of all virtues. Many Christians on this forum completely disregard basic courtesy.

    Essentially, what you are saying here is, "this is how I see these scriptures, I'm right, there's no other way to see it, and you are wrong".

    It's not much of an argument.

    This has been addressed in previous posts.

    Does the Bible mention Islam?

    Muhammad and the Bible - Wikipedia

    As you can imagine, prophecy is not always straight forward.

    Belief in Muhammad as a Messenger of God is an important matter to us all to decide based on the evidence. As I see it the Quran is a work unsurpassed in Arabic literature. Muhammad despite fierce opposition united a disparate group of Nomadic savages and taught them to be like the Christians and Jews and worship the One true God. Like Moses He had them turn away from their pagan beliefs. The religion He brought, Islam then went onto be bring about a knowledge and a civilisation that surpassed all others at that time. It was through the Islamic golden Age that the European Renaissance was ignited.

    Islamic Golden Age - Wikipedia

    All the more reason to look carefully at what scripture is saying, to properly study the Bible and to thoroughly investigate Islam.

    We do need to apply the same criteria when assessing if Jesus is in the Tanakh as to whether Muhammad is in the Bible.

    I was a Christian before I converted to the Baha'i Faith. I recognised the Bible spoke of Baha'u'llah and I have come to appreciate how the Bible speaks of Muhammad and Islam.

    The word Christian is meaningless if you are one of the goats, rather than sheep Jesus talks about in His final sermon.

    Matthew 25:31-46
     
    #399 adrian009, Nov 13, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2018
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  20. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    That is kind of a no-brainer to us Baha'is, huh... :D
    Interpretation of the scriptures is the whole ball of wax. the whole ball... :oops:
    And once someone is dead set on their particular interpretation it is near impossible to pry them loose. :rolleyes:
    Christians could say the same thing about the Baha'is, but we are not waiting for anyone, that's the 100-dollar difference... ;)
     
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