Does Judaism have Doctrine of Original Sin and if not why does Christianity?

[Zelophehad]

What apple??

Peter

If you were to bite the proverbial apple from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you would probably be able to see that Moses and YHWH are INCREDIBLY evil, and biting the apple is GOOD, and biting the apple, or seeking out the knowledge between good and evil is what saves people FROM evil monsters like Moses and YHWH.

 

[Shiranui117]

I am just going by what the Bible says. I am but a simple man. It says the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Having knowledge of good and evil would suggest to me that that would mean you can discern between what is good and right, and what is bad and wrong. Which is living by your own moral compass- Not somebody else's, not YHWH's, not Moses's, bur your own. I suspect if you were to go by your own sense, or knowledge of good and evil, that would mean YHWH and Moses are in trouble, because they are guilty of committing horrible crimes against humanity, and many of the stories of the Bible are actually sick and disturbing. You would see that YHWH and Moses are guilty by their own standards, and break their own laws. Biting the proverbial apple is what SAVES you from blindly following a murderous, terrorist , slave trading, genocidal cult, led by a murderous, genocidal Hitler-like, Charles Manson-like psychopath, jealous, control freak, immoral terrorist with abandonment issues. That's what "biting the Apple of good and evil" reveals.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil didn't give mankind a moral compass. We already had that as part of our innate nature from God. It's called the tree of knowledge of good and evil retroactively by mankind, because when we broke God's commandment, we experienced firsthand the reality of evil--its darkness, its corruption, the death and suffering that it brings.

St. John Chrysostom says about the Fall in his Homily 16 on Genesis:

Since, however, he was guilty of great inadvertence and together with his wife fell into this disaster through transgression of the command given him by tasting of the tree, accordingly called it the tree of the knowledge of good and evil--not because he was ignorant of good and evil before this (he was, after all, not so ignorant, since his wife was in conversation with the serpent and said "God said, 'Do not eat of this lest you die,'" so that he knew death was the penalty for breaking the command), but because after eating it they were divested of the glory from above and also had experience of their obvious nakedness. This was the reason it was called the knowledge of good and evil, since in connection with it there took place the contest, as you might say, between obedience and disobedience.

Have you discovered why it said, "Their eyes were opened, and they realised they were naked"? Do you know why the tree is called the knowledge of good and evil? Consider, after all, how much shame they were eventually seized with after eating it and thus breaking the Lord's command: "They stitched fig leaves together, and made themselves skirts." See the depths of indignity into which they fell from a condition of such great glory. Those who previously passed their life like angels on earth contrive covering for themselves out of fig leaves. Such is the evil that sin is: not only does it deprive us of grace from above, but it also casts us into deep shame and abjection, strips us of goods already belonging to us, and deprives us of all confidence.
​

God wasn't trying to keep us as dumb robots. He forbade mankind to eat from one ordinary tree, out of dozens or perhaps even hundreds or thousands of other trees, in order to teach Adam that God is the Lord over all creation, and not mankind.

 

[Zelophehad]

The tree of knowledge of good and evil didn't give mankind a moral compass. We already had that as part of our innate nature from God. It's called the tree of knowledge of good and evil retroactively by mankind, because when we broke God's commandment, we experienced firsthand the reality of evil--its darkness, its corruption, the death and suffering that it brings.

St. John Chrysostom says about the Fall in his Homily 16 on Genesis:

Since, however, he was guilty of great inadvertence and together with his wife fell into this disaster through transgression of the command given him by tasting of the tree, accordingly called it the tree of the knowledge of good and evil--not because he was ignorant of good and evil before this (he was, after all, not so ignorant, since his wife was in conversation with the serpent and said "God said, 'Do not eat of this lest you die,'" so that he knew death was the penalty for breaking the command), but because after eating it they were divested of the glory from above and also had experience of their obvious nakedness. This was the reason it was called the knowledge of good and evil, since in connection with it there took place the contest, as you might say, between obedience and disobedience.

Have you discovered why it said, "Their eyes were opened, and they realised they were naked"? Do you know why the tree is called the knowledge of good and evil? Consider, after all, how much shame they were eventually seized with after eating it and thus breaking the Lord's command: "They stitched fig leaves together, and made themselves skirts." See the depths of indignity into which they fell from a condition of such great glory. Those who previously passed their life like angels on earth contrive covering for themselves out of fig leaves. Such is the evil that sin is: not only does it deprive us of grace from above, but it also casts us into deep shame and abjection, strips us of goods already belonging to us, and deprives us of all confidence.
​

God wasn't trying to keep us as dumb robots. He forbade mankind to eat from one ordinary tree, out of dozens or perhaps even hundreds or thousands of other trees, in order to teach Adam that God is the Lord over all creation, and not mankind.

No offense, but that is total BS. The serpent told Eve the truth. That the fruit would give them knowledge of good and evil, and they would certainly NOT die. She desired knowledge and wisdom, which is a GOOD thing, she ate the apple, which is a GOOD thing, and received wisdom, and she didn't die. Only YHWH didn't want her to have the wisdom of her own moral compass, or the ability to judge right and wrong for herself. YHWH is a jealous, control freak with abandonment issues. This story portrays the simple desire for knowledge, wisdom, and discerning what is noble and good, from what is evil as the source to all the evil in the world. The moral compass is depicted as "original sin" in this scenario. All that talk of "obedience" to YHWH is WRONG. People need to tell YHWH to stick it, and feel free to seek out wisdom and knowledge, and to use our own moral compass. IF YHWH told me to drive a knife in my infant son, I would tell him to **** OFF. Because that is the moral, responsible, right thing to do. Job was extremely irresponsible, and he had no moral compass to speak ok. I would not trust him with my children. This "obedience" you talk of is teaching people to have obedience to YHWH, the immoral false "God" of terrorism, murder, and genocide. Having obedience to YHWH INSTEAD of, IN THE PLACE OF their own moral compass rips people AWAY from God, and from wisdom, and knowledge of good and evil.

 

[Zelophehad]

No offense, but that is total BS. The serpent told Eve the truth. That the fruit would give them knowledge of good and evil, and they would certainly NOT die. She desired knowledge and wisdom, which is a GOOD thing, she ate the apple, which is a GOOD thing, and received wisdom, and she didn't die. Only YHWH didn't want her to have the wisdom of her own moral compass, or the ability to judge right and wrong for herself. YHWH is a jealous, control freak with abandonment issues. This story portrays the simple desire for knowledge, wisdom, and discerning what is noble and good, from what is evil as the source to all the evil in the world. The moral compass is depicted as "original sin" in this scenario. All that talk of "obedience" to YHWH is WRONG. People need to tell YHWH to stick it, and feel free to seek out wisdom and knowledge, and to use our own moral compass. IF YHWH told me to drive a knife in my infant son, I would tell him to **** OFF. Because that is the moral, responsible, right thing to do. Job was extremely irresponsible, and he had no moral compass to speak ok. I would not trust him with my children. This "obedience" you talk of is teaching people to have obedience to YHWH, the immoral false "God" of terrorism, murder, and genocide. Having obedience to YHWH INSTEAD of, IN THE PLACE OF their own moral compass rips people AWAY from God, and from wisdom, and knowledge of good and evil.

That's the effect the Bible has on people. People listen to what Moses and YHWH says IN THE PLACE OF, and AT THE PERIL OF their own moral compasses.

 

[Shiranui117]

No offense, but that is total BS. The serpent told Eve the truth. That the fruit would give them knowledge of good and evil, and they would certainly NOT die. She desired knowledge and wisdom, which is a GOOD thing, she ate the apple, which is a GOOD thing, and received wisdom,

What wisdom did she receive? If anything, eating the apple inhibited our wisdom and moral compass--by introducing sin into the human experience, our ability to judge right from wrong is actually inhibited rather than helped. Adam and Eve had a better understanding of right vs. wrong before eating of the tree, not after.

and she didn't die.

False. She was subject to mortality by cutting herself from God, Who is the source of Life.

Only YHWH didn't want her to have the wisdom of her own moral compass, or the ability to judge right and wrong for herself.

Wrong. Humans are created in the image of God--which means that we are born with the ability to distinguish right from wrong, and we have free will.

YHWH is a jealous, control freak with abandonment issues.

And you seem like someone with anger issues and a lot of angsty hate.

This story portrays the simple desire for knowledge, wisdom, and discerning what is noble and good, from what is evil as the source to all the evil in the world.

No. If you actually read the story, it has to do with Eve choosing the words of a random serpent over the loving God Who created her and cared for her, choosing her own desires (seeking the beauty of the fruit) over what was in fact best for her (her life, virtue and humility).

The moral compass is depicted as "original sin" in this scenario.

Wrong. The original sin is carelessness towards God.

Job was extremely irresponsible, and he had no moral compass to speak ok. I would not trust him with my children.

What about Job makes you say this? Random stuff happens to him over which he had absolutely no control, and you call him irresponsible?

This "obedience" you talk of is teaching people to have obedience to YHWH, the immoral false "God" of terrorism, murder, and genocide. Having obedience to YHWH INSTEAD of, IN THE PLACE OF their own moral compass rips people AWAY from God, and from wisdom, and knowledge of good and evil.

God is the One Who gives us our moral compasses in the first place. To obey Him is to follow our moral compass exactly. To seek God is to seek knowledge and wisdom and the Truth.

That's the effect the Bible has on people. People listen to what Moses and YHWH says IN THE PLACE OF, and AT THE PERIL OF their own moral compasses.

So what do you make of Jesus? Is He a bloodthirsty barbarian? The Christian Bible says he IS God incarnate, after all.

 

[Looncall]

All this is very interesting. However, one possibility has been overlooked: that original sin is a notion cooked up by cynical priests to get power over people. The fact that the idea is not found in all varieties of christianity makes this look likely.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... one possibility has been overlooked: that original sin is a notion cooked up by cynical priests to get power over people. The fact that the idea is not found in all varieties of christianity makes this look likely.

Rubbish.

 

[Shiranui117]

All this is very interesting. However, one possibility has been overlooked: that original sin is a notion cooked up by cynical priests to get power over people. The fact that the idea is not found in all varieties of christianity makes this look likely.

Inventing the doctrine of original sin wasn't about power, it was Augustine using Classical Latin philosophy to interpret the Bible instead of using Christian theology like he should have.

 

[Zelophehad]

Inventing the doctrine of original sin wasn't about power, it was Augustine using Classical Latin philosophy to interpret the Bible instead of using Christian theology like he should have.

Oops, my bad. It was Abraham who was going to kill his infant son because a voice from Heaven, YHWH, told him to. Abraham is an irresponsible man with NO moral compass whatsoever.

The story of original sin is about getting people to not use their own moral judgment regarding Moses, YHWH, or the Bible. I say this because a moral compass is depicted as the cause of all the evil in the world in this story, and I can see the effect the Bible has on people. Moses has innocent people murdered, and people of the Bible worship him as the authority on God, when Moses's depiction of God is a horribly evil, bloodthirsty monster, control freak, with abandonment issues. That is what the Bible reveals about YHWH, yet everyone covers up for all the open, unrepentant evil being committed. Everyone is a dirty little sinner, so who are they to judge? There is no responsibility being taken for all the outrageous evils YHWH and Moses wreak upon innocent lives. Nobody of the Bible has any compassion for all the victims of terrorism.

 

[nazz]

Oops, my bad. It was Abraham who was going to kill his infant son because a voice from Heaven, YHWH, told him to. Abraham is an irresponsible man with NO moral compass whatsoever.

The story of original sin is about getting people to not use their own moral judgment regarding Moses, YHWH, or the Bible. I say this because I can see the effect the Bible has on people. Moses has innocent people murdered, and people of the Bible worship him as the authority on God, when Moses's depiction of God as a horribly evil, bloodthirsty monster, control freak, with abandonment issues. That is what the Bible reveals about YHWH, yet everyone covers up for all the open, unrepentant evil being committed.

Zelophedad, you ought to join us over in the Gnostic section

 

[creXifiction]

I don't that Judaism Teaches Much of anything from the BIble.

Most jEWS do not Follow the Bible or Even Like the BIble.

I honestly think that iF Abraham and Jacob or Gideon were to Return back to Israel today. The jEWs would Criminalize them for POLYGAMY

Take away their Wifes and Children and Vilify them as Evil and Perverted.

I have a Parable for the Condition of the Majority of jEWS and MOST all of CHRISTIANS and MUSLIMS.

around the world.. THey have a Stone, Saved for The POLYGAMOUS Abraham and Jacob and for Gideon, and All of the Polygamous Prophets and Men of God.

Should they ever return back to Earth. You would Lock them Up, Take away their Wives and Kids and Condemn them.

I don't Understand the Desire for Christians to PRETEND that They have some sort of Admiration or Connection with Abraham and Jacob.

the Desire for Christians to PLAY and Convince Others that They have Admiration and a special Love and RESPECT for these Polygamous Prophets and men of the BIBLE.

and their Many , Many Wives and Families

If they were around TODAY. They would be Spit upon and hated and Killed by the Christian And jEWISH world. !

With the IDEA of ORIGIONAL Sin... Even though the Teaching of Original Sin......... may be Old Testament.

People in Judaism and Christianity will SEEK to change it and MOLD it .. INTO their OWN twisted Version.

What do you think ?

 

[Shiranui117]

I don't that Judaism Teaches Much of anything from the BIble.

Most jEWS do not Follow the Bible or Even Like the BIble.

I honestly think that iF Abraham and Jacob or Gideon were to Return back to Israel today. The jEWs would Criminalize them for POLYGAMY

Take away their Wifes and Children and Vilify them as Evil and Perverted.

I have a Parable for the Condition of the Majority of jEWS and MOST all of CHRISTIANS and MUSLIMS.

around the world.. THey have a Stone, Saved for The POLYGAMOUS Abraham and Jacob and for Gideon, and All of the Polygamous Prophets and Men of God.

Should they ever return back to Earth. You would Lock them Up, Take away their Wives and Kids and Condemn them.

I don't Understand the Desire for Christians to PRETEND that They have some sort of Admiration or Connection with Abraham and Jacob.

the Desire for Christians to PLAY and Convince Others that They have Admiration and a special Love and RESPECT for these Polygamous Prophets and men of the BIBLE.

and their Many , Many Wives and Families

If they were around TODAY. They would be Spit upon and hated and Killed by the Christian And jEWISH world. !

With the IDEA of ORIGIONAL Sin... Even though the Teaching of Original Sin......... may be Old Testament.

People in Judaism and Christianity will SEEK to change it and MOLD it .. INTO their OWN twisted Version.

What do you think ?

If you were to send us back to the time of Abraham or Jacob, we'd probably be killed on the spot too for transgressing some cultural norm or another back then--our manner of speech and the way our women dress alone would offend most anyone. It's the same thing.

Trying to say that someone would be hated because they're suddenly put into a completely different culture with completely different norms and mores isn't an effective ad hominem against people of this day, it's just pointing out a fact of sociology. It's by no means anything that discredits Christians, Jews or Muslims.

 

[creXifiction]

Yes I agree with You.. Completely.

Also I would like to Add that if you REMEMBER . God Gave Man the Ability to have eternal life.

Adam. who broke Gods Law and GIFT. Only Lived for close to 1000 years. REMEMBER ?

So God wanted to Protect His Creation. and Blood Crimes such as Adultery and Sodomy and others. Were Punishable by the Death Penality.

I thank you for Your time

 

[RabbiO]

I don't that Judaism Teaches Much of anything from the BIble.

Most jEWS do not Follow the Bible or Even Like the BIble......

What do you think ?

As to what I think....?

Unfortunately there are language standards that one must adher to on a forum. I guess the least inflammatory thing I could say is that you appear to terribly misinformed regarding Judaism and your ignorance is frightening.

Just my opinion.

Peter

 

[CMike]

I don't that Judaism Teaches Much of anything from the BIble.

Most jEWS do not Follow the Bible or Even Like the BIble.

I honestly think that iF Abraham and Jacob or Gideon were to Return back to Israel today. The jEWs would Criminalize them for POLYGAMY

Take away their Wifes and Children and Vilify them as Evil and Perverted.

I have a Parable for the Condition of the Majority of jEWS and MOST all of CHRISTIANS and MUSLIMS.

around the world.. THey have a Stone, Saved for The POLYGAMOUS Abraham and Jacob and for Gideon, and All of the Polygamous Prophets and Men of God.

Should they ever return back to Earth. You would Lock them Up, Take away their Wives and Kids and Condemn them.

I don't Understand the Desire for Christians to PRETEND that They have some sort of Admiration or Connection with Abraham and Jacob.

the Desire for Christians to PLAY and Convince Others that They have Admiration and a special Love and RESPECT for these Polygamous Prophets and men of the BIBLE.

and their Many , Many Wives and Families

If they were around TODAY. They would be Spit upon and hated and Killed by the Christian And jEWISH world. !

With the IDEA of ORIGIONAL Sin... Even though the Teaching of Original Sin......... may be Old Testament.

People in Judaism and Christianity will SEEK to change it and MOLD it .. INTO their OWN twisted Version.

What do you think ?

That's deep:drool:

 

[Levite]

I don't that Judaism Teaches Much of anything from the BIble.

Most jEWS do not Follow the Bible or Even Like the BIble.

I honestly think that iF Abraham and Jacob or Gideon were to Return back to Israel today. The jEWs would Criminalize them for POLYGAMY

Take away their Wifes and Children and Vilify them as Evil and Perverted.

I have a Parable for the Condition of the Majority of jEWS and MOST all of CHRISTIANS and MUSLIMS.

around the world.. THey have a Stone, Saved for The POLYGAMOUS Abraham and Jacob and for Gideon, and All of the Polygamous Prophets and Men of God.

Should they ever return back to Earth. You would Lock them Up, Take away their Wives and Kids and Condemn them.

I don't Understand the Desire for Christians to PRETEND that They have some sort of Admiration or Connection with Abraham and Jacob.

the Desire for Christians to PLAY and Convince Others that They have Admiration and a special Love and RESPECT for these Polygamous Prophets and men of the BIBLE.

and their Many , Many Wives and Families

If they were around TODAY. They would be Spit upon and hated and Killed by the Christian And jEWISH world. !

With the IDEA of ORIGIONAL Sin... Even though the Teaching of Original Sin......... may be Old Testament.

People in Judaism and Christianity will SEEK to change it and MOLD it .. INTO their OWN twisted Version.

What do you think ?

And we have a new contender for the most ignorant post of the year.

It would actually be hard for that to manage to be more offensive.

 

[Flankerl]

Iam against the rabbinical ban/custom against polygamy.

 

[Bismillah]

Iam against the rabbinical ban/custom against polygamy.

Is polygamy outlawed by most rabbis?

 

[McBell]

That's deep:drool:

Yeppers, it is deep.
Smells like crap as well....

*puts on chest waders*

 

[Levite]

Is polygamy outlawed by most rabbis?

Pretty much universally. Completely outlawed amongst Ashkenazim (Central/Eastern European Jews) and Sefaradim (Iberian and Southern European Jews) for around a thousand years; increasingly outlawed amongst Mizrachim (Middle Eastern Jews) over the past couple of hundred years. Nearly no one actually practices it anymore.