Does God create evil?

[PolyHedral]

If for example we dispense with light, that is to say not just the term but the state itself, we are left with 'dark' the condition, but not the term, which is now redundant. Similarly if we annihilate evil, the condition and behaviour that we knew previously as 'good' will simply continue as before, unaffected and now without the need for any distinction.

So evil doesn't depend upon the existence of 'good' in order to give it meaning. Murder is evil, but not murder is simply the former possibility not enacted: there isn't a state or condition of not murder. However, the term 'good' is dependent upon evil. Conceive of the non-existence of evil. What would the state of 'goodness' comprise? How could one be good when it is impossible to be bad? And now if we reverse the situation, where we have only an evil existence, we find we don't need the correlative 'good' to identify this negative state. In sum, the state of evil and badness, eg hurt, injury, death etc, exists as a proper state, but 'goodness' is merely a descriptive term for the theoretical absence of that negative state; it is not a state in itself. Evil is thus a real , existent state.

Arguably, it is the other way around, however, the question "How could one be good when it is impossible to be bad?" has an answer: continue doing good things. The fact that they are no longer distinguished as good is irrelevant; The actions themselves are still possible.

 

[Maury83]

Dear All,

I must agree to most of your statements.
Yes God created everything including Satan.
Actually the bible says that Satan was one of the most beautiful angels created (not a horrid figure with horns and a tail!).
The point is that God gave Satan and all other angels that thing called "free will".
He crerated angels and humas with this feature because he wanted to create something intelligent, beautifully shaped, interested in art, nature, music, able to appresciate the rest of the creation and able to make their own choices.

Satan of his own "free will" decided or make his own choice to become evil.

The point is "WHY DIDN'T GOD GET RID OF THE DEVIL LONG TIME AGO?

To help you answer this question, you might visualize a prominent court case.
The murderer, desperate to halt the proceedings, claims that the judge is disonest in the way he presides over his own courtroom, and he even asserts that the jurors are being bribed by the judge. So countless witnesses are allowed to provide testimony.
The judge knows that the extensive proceedings will cause much inconvenience, and he would like to have the case concluded without undue delay. Yet he realizes that to arrive to a judgment that will set a precedent for possible future cases, both parties must be allowed sufficient time to present their side of the dispute.

Explanation: Satan made himself the devil when he became obsessed with a selfish ambition to be worshipped by humans. So he challenged God's right to rule, even insinuating that God does not deserve to be obeyed. He charged that humans serve God only when bribed with blessings.
Such accusations from Satan required responses that could not be answered simply by a show of force. In fact, executing the devil would have perhaps have suggested to some that that the devil was right. So God, possessing absolute authority, began legal proceedings to settle such issues in the minds of all observers.
In harmony with his principles and perfect justice, God indicated that each party would produce witnesses who would give supporting testimony to its side of the controversy, The time allowed has given Adam's descendants a chance to live and to add their testimony in God's behalf by choosing to keep integrity to him out of love despite any hardship!

The question now is: WHEN WILL GOD GET RID OF SATAN?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

 

[rusra02]

This is in no way meant to be inflammatory, it is only my own logic and opinions. I do welcome other opinions on the matter.

The view held by Christian theology is that God did not create evil. You may argue this point using scripture to support either side. However that argument is but a symptom of a much larger problem which is choice and “free will”.

The concept among Christians is that sin, suffering, and evil deeds began with the “original sin”. The original sin was supposedly Adam and Eve’s disobedience, which is incorrect. The original sin started with Satan first, and then Adam and Eve second.

Using biblical logic we can see that God did not stop Satan from disobeying, he merely punishes or will punish Satan. God allowed Satan a choice. Satan in turn proposed that choice to Adam and Eve. Through their actions suffering and evil entered the world of man. The suffering and evil did not originate in reality with Adam and Eve. It originated when God allowed Satan a choice. Satan was supposedly the first creature to disobey. It is only in the world of humans that Adam and Eve were responsible for evil spreading, but Satan, using his option given by God, created evil.

Ultimately God allows choice or "free will".

The bible shows Satan created evil when he exercised his free will to oppose God. That choice that Satan took was offered to him by God. Both God and Satan are necessary ingredients in the creation of evil.

This is the most important concept and the origin of Gods involvement with the creation or allowance of evil.

If God created everything then he also created choice, or “free will”, and the ability to act upon that choice, as Satan demonstrated, which creates evil. He allows the capacity for disobedience and sin. Evil is a choice that was made by Satan given to him by God. Satan could never have made that choice if God hadn’t given it to him or allowed it in the same way God gave it to Adam and Eve. God must have created and allowed the ability for the two options prior to Satan’s choosing.

The problem is as follows. In a world with options, someone will take those options. It is in the free will and choices that exists good or bad. In order for the world to be without bad things, the option must be removed or blocked.

Mostly the objection to this idea is that people think without the option to disobey you aren’t truly free, and God of course wants us to be free. God does not want to force us to obey him. This is faulty logic simply because we are not, and have never been, as humans, truly free. I can not transform myself into a dinosaur. I am limited by the laws of physics, nature, and biology. We are not and have never been, as humans, truly free.

This is not a bad thing. Without the option of exercising evil you are no more limited in any capacity than you were before, in fact you would be better off without that option. You have unlimited other options, why would the removal of the ability to choose evil be equated to slavery? Do we truly need the choice to produce evil things for us to be “free”?

God is very busy in punishing the wicked. Punishment is a negative thing full of sorrow, guilt, and suffering. God participates in punishment, pain, and suffering. He also continues the evil by allowing the choice for disobedience in turn causing him to create Hell, destroy cities, and bring death as righteous punishment.

My real point is not to challenge the authenticity of the Christian God's existence, but to point to the idea that people do not know the God they choose to worship. Also that the bible is full of problematic theologies and concepts which create these imbalances in the image we create of God.

The short answer to the question on both counts is yes. Through choice God creates evil. If God created everything, then anything that is possible, or anything that exists, must have been created by God.

No, God did not create evil, at least not in the sense of causing wickedness. The Bible explains it this way (James 1:13-15) "When under trial, let know one say "I am being tried by God". For with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desires."
The word Evil in Hebrew can be translated as evil, calamitous, ugly etc. It is not always synonymous with wicked. When God brings evil or calamity, it is always righteous and deserved. Example: the Flood of Noah's day.
You are correct in saying that God gives to intelligent creatures free will, the ability to make moral choices. He gave this gift to angels and his human creation. This is an expression of his love. "God is love" says 1 John 4:8. God's love is given freely and he allows us to express our love (or lack thereof) freely. We are made in his image, with a measure of his qualities. God himself has this faculty of free will. God knows we need freedom to be happy. Consider how humans feel and act when they are not free.
God is in no way responsible for the misuse of this gift by wicked men and angels. God realized some may use free will to rebel, but that is the nature of freedom. We have the freedom to do good or bad. He also knows he is capable of dealing with any problems resulting from misuse of free will.
Our freedom is relative. We are always subject to God's physical and moral laws, whether we like it or not. A loving parent may provide a bicycle as a gift to a child, repeatedly giving them instructions not to ride it on a busy street. The gift of the bicycle does not make the parent responsible if the child disobeys, and suffers injury or death. How happy would we be if we tried to do something and were forcibly stopped from doing it?
On the other hand, what would life be like where we were free to do anything we wanted? Such a world would be unlivable, as we see today's world is rapidly becoming.
God gave our first parents a beautiful home, perfect minds and bodies, a loving purpose, and an potentially endless life. Within the boundaries he lovingly set, they could have lived to this day. Instead, their misuse of free will and Satan's misuse has resulted in temporary pain and misery for mankind. Happily, God will soon reverse this calamity or evil, and bring back to mankind what Adam lost for us. (Revelations 21:3.4) Each person today has the right to choose whether they want this for themselves or not. Parents get to choose for their minor children.
God did not create evil. Evil comes from violating God's laws. A person isn't born a thief or a murderer. They become such by making choices and the defect is theirs, not God's. (Deuteronomy 32:4,5)

 

[BruceDLimber]

From the Baha'i scriptures:

Chapter 74.

THE NONEXISTENCE OF EVIL

“The true explanation of this subject is very difficult. Know that beings are of two kinds: material and spiritual, those perceptible to the senses and those intellectual.
“Things which are sensible are those which are perceived by the five exterior senses; thus those outward existences which the eyes see are called sensible. Intellectual things are those which have no outward existence but are conceptions of the mind. For example, mind itself is an intellectual thing which has no outward existence. All man's characteristics and qualities form an intellectual existence and are not sensible.
“Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want of good sense. All these things have no real existence.
“In the same way, the sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistence—that is to say, blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth, illness is the want of health, death is the want of life, and weakness is the want of strength.
“Nevertheless a doubt occurs to the mind—that is, scorpions and serpents are poisonous. Are they good or evil, for they are existing beings? Yes, a scorpion is evil in relation to man; a serpent is evil in relation to man; but in relation to themselves they are not evil, for their poison is their weapon, and by their sting they defend themselves. But as the elements of their poison do not agree with our elements—that is to say, as there is antagonism between these different elements, therefore, this antagonism is evil; but in reality as regards themselves they are good.
“The epitome of this discourse is that it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light: when there is no light, there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is nonexistent. Wealth is an existing thing, but poverty is nonexisting.
“Then it is evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent.”
— 'Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 282-284
[unquote]

Peace,

Bruce

 

[JustWondering]

Free will again? *yawn* Where did greed, anger, and jealousy come from? Humans feel these desires and emotions (which can lead us to do evil things) because God gave us the capacity to have and feel these desires and emotions. I find it laughable that the god of the bible is credited with creating everything but when someone points out the nasty bits of creation god is somehow not responsible for any of it. By christian logic I could hand loaded pistols to a couple of six year olds playing cops and robbers and claim no responsibility or wrong doing if someone gets hurt. Sure I gave them the guns but they fired them of their own free will. So obviously I'm innocent of causing any harm or suffering to anyone.

 

[JustWondering]

Dear All,

I must agree to most of your statements.
Yes God created everything including Satan.
Actually the bible says that Satan was one of the most beautiful angels created (not a horrid figure with horns and a tail!).
The point is that God gave Satan and all other angels that thing called "free will".
He crerated angels and humas with this feature because he wanted to create something intelligent, beautifully shaped, interested in art, nature, music, able to appresciate the rest of the creation and able to make their own choices.

Satan of his own "free will" decided or make his own choice to become evil.

The point is "WHY DIDN'T GOD GET RID OF THE DEVIL LONG TIME AGO?

To help you answer this question, you might visualize a prominent court case.
The murderer, desperate to halt the proceedings, claims that the judge is disonest in the way he presides over his own courtroom, and he even asserts that the jurors are being bribed by the judge. So countless witnesses are allowed to provide testimony.
The judge knows that the extensive proceedings will cause much inconvenience, and he would like to have the case concluded without undue delay. Yet he realizes that to arrive to a judgment that will set a precedent for possible future cases, both parties must be allowed sufficient time to present their side of the dispute.

Explanation: Satan made himself the devil when he became obsessed with a selfish ambition to be worshipped by humans. So he challenged God's right to rule, even insinuating that God does not deserve to be obeyed. He charged that humans serve God only when bribed with blessings.
Such accusations from Satan required responses that could not be answered simply by a show of force. In fact, executing the devil would have perhaps have suggested to some that that the devil was right. So God, possessing absolute authority, began legal proceedings to settle such issues in the minds of all observers.
In harmony with his principles and perfect justice, God indicated that each party would produce witnesses who would give supporting testimony to its side of the controversy, The time allowed has given Adam's descendants a chance to live and to add their testimony in God's behalf by choosing to keep integrity to him out of love despite any hardship!

The question now is: WHEN WILL GOD GET RID OF SATAN?

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Where is all this in the bible exactly?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Free will again? *yawn* Where did greed, anger, and jealousy come from? Humans feel these desires and emotions (which can lead us to do evil things) because God gave us the capacity to have and feel these desires and emotions. I find it laughable that the god of the bible is credited with creating everything but when someone points out the nasty bits of creation god is somehow not responsible for any of it. By christian logic I could hand loaded pistols to a couple of six year olds playing cops and robbers and claim no responsibility or wrong doing if someone gets hurt. Sure I gave them the guns but they fired them of their own free will. So obviously I'm innocent of causing any harm or suffering to anyone.

Disobedience. Disobedience to God's Golden Rule is by free choice.

Each is drawn out by his own desire. [James 1vs14,15]

Those with perfection lean toward perfection.
They must deliberately choose to disobey.
When Adam lost his perfection he passed down imperfection to us.
Those with imperfection [us] lean toward imperfection.
Just as a parent knows at a child's birth its leanings will be toward imperfection.

Following Jesus Sermon on the Mount and Jesus new commandment of John 13vs34,35 keeps imperfect leanings in check. Reap/ sow.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If God created everything than God created evil.

Evil in Scripture is not always synonymous with wrong doing.
Evil in Scripture can be in the form of calamity used against rebellion.

 

[JustWondering]

Disobedience. Disobedience to God's Golden Rule is by free choice.

Each is drawn out by his own desire. [James 1vs14,15]

Those with perfection lean toward perfection.
They must deliberately choose to disobey.
When Adam lost his perfection he passed down imperfection to us.
Those with imperfection [us] lean toward imperfection.
Just as a parent knows at a child's birth its leanings will be toward imperfection.

Following Jesus Sermon on the Mount and Jesus new commandment of John 13vs34,35 keeps imperfect leanings in check. Reap/ sow.

If Adam were truly perfect he would have never disobeyed god. Therefore Adam was never perfect. Adam could only act in a certain way due to the traits, instincts, emotions, knowledge, and capabilities god endowed him with.

 

[outhouse]

If Adam were truly perfect he would have never disobeyed god. Therefore Adam was never perfect. Adam could only act in a certain way due to the traits, instincts, emotions, knowledge, and capabilities god endowed him with.

beings he is ancient mans imagination would explain why he is not perfect.

if you want more insight to adam, read the sumarian version the hebrews stole to create genesis. they called him adamu

 

[Skwim]

Disobedience. Disobedience to God's Golden Rule is by free choice.

Free of what? Obviously something compels people to disobey god's GR, and whatever that something is functions as the cause. So the choice is obviously not free from cause. So again I ask: what is choice free of ?

 

[cottage]

Arguably, it is the other way around, however, the question "How could one be good when it is impossible to be bad?" has an answer: continue doing good things. The fact that they are no longer distinguished as good is irrelevant; The actions themselves are still possible.

The OP asks ‘Did God create evil?’ There are many Theodical responses to the Problem of Evil, one of which is that evil does not exist, since God is supposedly the epitome of moral goodness. And I responded to that apologetical statement by showing that what we call 'good' is dependent upon evil or bad occurrences. Evil therefore exists. And plainly it is impossible to be ‘good’, ie benevolent, caring, merciful etc if there are no circumstances where those actions can be applied. ‘Goodness’ is absolutely dependent upon evil in order to have any meaning whatsoever.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Cottage-

In the Garden of Eden were two trees. One was the knowledge of good and bad.
If knowledge of evil/bad did not already exist there would have been no need to mention that tree.

But, that does not mean people were created to be educated [knowledge] in doing bad or evil. Having the knowledge of evil or bad would end up meaning having knowledge or knowing: death.

Death did not exist before sinning. So the existence of such evil or badness came into the world at the start of sin.-Gen 2v17.

In Scripture evil is not always connected to wrongdoing because God used evil in the form of a calamity such as with the Flood of Noah's day.

Once again God will use evil or calamity to rid the earth of all wickedness.
The words from Jesus mouth will be as sharp as an executioner's sword against God's enemies. -Rev 19v15; Isaiah 11v4; Psalm 92v7

The purpose for Jesus taking such action into mankind's affairs is so our last enemy 'death' according to 1st Cor 15v26: death will be brought to nothing or death destroyed.
That is why Rev 21vs4,5 says: death will be no more.
Jesus will undo what Adam did to us starting at the time of Matthew 25vs31,32.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Free of what? Obviously something compels people to disobey god's GR, and whatever that something is functions as the cause. So the choice is obviously not free from cause. So again I ask: what is choice free of ?

According to James [1vs13-15] it is one's own desire that compels people to disobey God's GR.

1st John 2v16 mentions the desire of the 'eyes'.
The Psalmist [119v37] prayed that his 'eyes' should be turned away from worthless things.

How do we turn away from anything but by: self control.

Advertising is eye appeal, or even can be eye candy, so to speak.
If we view lets say porn that can put passions in danger, or view violence that fosters love of violence we are compelling oneself against God's GR.

A picture is worth a thousand words and experience is worth a thousand pictures.

If we go to a wax museum we see what looks a lot like the person.
It reminds us of that person.
When we read about Jesus we see what Jesus appears like.
It reminds us of Jesus.

Jesus exercised self-control, not to use his free will in a wrong way, but to always use his free choice as looking for an opportunity to see how to help others avoid dangers as in his Sermon on the Mount and his new commandment on love. -John 13vs34,35; 6v38
Help others see how to widen out in love for others in his illustration of the good Samaritan.

So what compelled Jesus was his knowledge or education of Scripture.
The trust Jesus displayed in Scripture enabled him to turn away from seeing things or desiring things that are worthless in God's eyes.
-Luke 4v5-8

What kind of environment or association did Jesus put himself into?
What kind of environment or association do people put themselves into?

If we choose bad association meaning people that do not want to live by the Golden Rule, then aren't we putting ourselves in a position that could more easily cause us to give in to the imperfect desires of our imperfect flesh?
-James 1vs13-15

So, isn't choice [self control] free of what we choose it to be free of?
Jesus choice was to be free of what Scripture says is worthless in God's eyes.
Jesus did that in a perfect sense, but we can do what Jesus did in a relatively perfect sense to the extent that our imperfect self choice will allow.

 

[Skwim]

So, isn't choice [self control] free of what we choose it to be free of?

Choice = self control?? Gotta say that's a definition I've never come across before. Usually choice is considered to be something selected or the act of selecting, but here you want to say choice is "being held in check" or some such notion. Sorry but this too much of a perversion of the word. As for your statement, which is essentially, "choice is free of what we choose it to be free of" it's a vacuous remark. Like asking, "Isn't red a color we describe as being red?

Jesus choice was to be free of what Scripture says is worthless in God's eyes.
Jesus did that in a perfect sense, but we can do what Jesus did in a relatively perfect sense to the extent that our imperfect self choice will allow.

Here you're confusing the nature of choice with a particular object of choice--what was worthless in god's eyes, which isn't what is signified by the term "free choice." "Free choice" is meant to imply a choice unhindered by cause, or a least some cause, which is why I asked, what cause do you see choice being free of?

 

[cottage]

Cottage-

In the Garden of Eden were two trees. One was the knowledge of good and bad.
If knowledge of evil/bad did not already exist there would have been no need to mention that tree.

But, that does not mean people were created to be educated [knowledge] in doing bad or evil. Having the knowledge of evil or bad would end up meaning having knowledge or knowing: death.

Death did not exist before sinning. So the existence of such evil or badness came into the world at the start of sin.-Gen 2v17.

In Scripture evil is not always connected to wrongdoing because God used evil in the form of a calamity such as with the Flood of Noah's day.

Once again God will use evil or calamity to rid the earth of all wickedness.
The words from Jesus mouth will be as sharp as an executioner's sword against God's enemies. -Rev 19v15; Isaiah 11v4; Psalm 92v7

The purpose for Jesus taking such action into mankind's affairs is so our last enemy 'death' according to 1st Cor 15v26: death will be brought to nothing or death destroyed.
That is why Rev 21vs4,5 says: death will be no more.
Jesus will undo what Adam did to us starting at the time of Matthew 25vs31,32.

I'm sorry but it makes no sense whatever to speak of God using evil to rid the world of evil. That simply compounds and restates the problem, which is that a supposedly good God creates, allows and uses suffering. Nonsensical!

 

[SoulTraveler]

The short answer to the question on both counts is yes. Through choice God creates evil. If God created everything, then anything that is possible, or anything that exists, must have been created by God.

The false premise you have here is that evil exists. Like darkness being the absence of light (any dark bulbs in your house for when it's too bright?), evil is the absence of good. God didn't create evil. He didn't have to.

 

[gnostic]

The god of the bible is certainly capable of great evil. As Dawkins somewhere points out, he is among the most disgusting creatures in all of the world's literature:

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

Ah, Dawkins is such a dummy. He left out "2nd grade smarty pants" in his list.

 

[cottage]

The false premise you have here is that evil exists. Like darkness being the absence of light (any dark bulbs in your house for when it's too bright?), evil is the absence of good. God didn't create evil. He didn't have to.

'Evil is the absence of good'? That is not so, and the contrary is easily demonstrated. Please see my posts 18 and 32 on the matter.

 

[cottage]

Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:

Revelation: v21-23 I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds."

Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. (Matt. 10:37)
Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3, 5)
I will bring distress on men, that they will walk like blind men, because they have sinned against Yahweh, and their blood will be poured out like dust, and their flesh like dung. Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to deliver them in the day of Yahweh’s wrath, but the whole land will be devoured by the fire of his jealousy; for he will make an end, yes, a terrible end, of all those who dwell in the land." v 14-18

for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.

Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. (Matt. 10:37)
Isaiah 13: 5-11 They come from a far country, from the Isaiah 13: 5-11 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the Lord, and the weapons of his wrath to destroy all the land. Howl for the day of YHWH is at hand. It shall come as destruction from the almighty...Behold the day of the Lord comes, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate
Isaiah 66: 15 For behold, the LORD will come in fire And His chariots like the whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire.

Isaiah 66: 16 For the LORD will execute judgment by fire And by His sword on all flesh, And those slain by the LORD will be many.

Zephaniah 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

He that believeth on the Son, hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him​

Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon earth.
I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man
against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law
>against her mother-in-law; and one's enemies will be those of his
>household'". (Matthew 10:34-36 NAB)
>