Do You Think You Would Regret.....

[lilithu]

That is a truely eloquent way to explain it, Lilithu! I had yet to meet a Christian who could view it that way. So many of them don't allow for independant thought, they just spew out what they hear in church. I think destiny is the right word for it. If that story were true, then I believe it could only be true if humans were meant to eat that fruit.

Thanks Ravenwolf. Just to be clear, I'm not Christian. But since Unitarian Universalism came from the Christian tradition many of us still look to these stories for meaning. For me the story is true but that doesn't mean that I believe it literally happened. Does that make sense?

 

[astarath]

I can't wait to discuss theology with God and find out the purpose he had for all religions of the world.

 

[SoulSearcher]

How could I regret standing in front of this being (what you call judgement) when he's never even made himself known.

 

[astarath]

If you are standing in front of him that will be the point when you know him.

 

[jmaster78]

i don't get it! if you look at things from a christian point of view, would a god of peace, love and FORGIVENESS really dish out the ultimate punishment for eternity? he expects us to forgive others, yet refuses to forgive us? what ever happened to 'practice what you preach'?

 

[SoulSearcher]

i don't get it! if you look at things from a christian point of view, would a god of peace, love and FORGIVENESS really dish out the ultimate punishment for eternity? he expects us to forgive others, yet refuses to forgive us? what ever happened to 'practice what you preach'?

Yeah, I hear ya!

 

[astarath]

i don't get it! if you look at things from a christian point of view, would a god of peace, love and FORGIVENESS really dish out the ultimate punishment for eternity? he expects us to forgive others, yet refuses to forgive us? what ever happened to 'practice what you preach'?

Does a dog tell it's master what the rules of the relationship are or does the master make the rules and the dog obeys?

God has given us simple commandments by which to live, sent 100's of prophets to remind us of them and even gave his only son to us to show how much he wants us to live as he asks. If through all this you chose not to follow his instruction, you have chosen to take the punishment that goes with those actions.

If someone commits murder they take the punishment for the actions. The court does not take flack for taking the life of the murderer.

If someone ignores the tenets of God they take the punishment for the actions. God does not take flack for taking away the heaven of the transgressor.

 

[jmaster78]

Does a dog tell it's master what the rules of the relationship are or does the master make the rules and the dog obeys?

God has given us simple commandments by which to live, sent 100's of prophets to remind us of them and even gave his only son to us to show how much he wants us to live as he asks. If through all this you chose not to follow his instruction, you have chosen to take the punishment that goes with those actions.

If someone commits murder they take the punishment for the actions. The court does not take flack for taking the life of the murderer.

If someone ignores the tenets of God they take the punishment for the actions. God does not take flack for taking away the heaven of the transgressor.

if the master taught the dog free will, then gave it conflicting commands, passed down through a 2000 year chinese whisper, along the way corrupted by men who wanted the dog to jump through hoops for them instead, should the master throw the dog into the fire because it uses it's given free will to try and weed out the original command? personally i'm nobody's dog!

 

[lilithu]

I can't wait to discuss theology with God and find out the purpose he had for all religions of the world.

Does a dog tell it's master what the rules of the relationship are or does the master make the rules and the dog obeys?

Umm... so the "dog" gets to discuss with the "master" what his purposes are?

 

[CelticRavenwolf]

ust to be clear, I'm not Christian. But since Unitarian Universalism came from the Christian tradition many of us still look to these stories for meaning. For me the story is true but that doesn't mean that I believe it literally happened. Does that make sense?

Thanks for clearing that up. I was doubtful that you were Christian, but the way some of your earlier post was worded had me a little unsure.

Lol, and no, I can't see how the story can be true but you don't believe it literally happened. I can't quite wrap my mind around that one!

As for the dog analogy, I give to you all:

The Parable of the Insane Dog Breeder
"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

There once lived a man who bred dogs. Over the years he worked to produce a breed of strong, intelligent and loyal animals. At last he developed a unique breed which, he liked to think, reflected the best of his own nature. And for awhile all was good. Then the animals began fighting. They fought among themselves and with other breeds. They fought and injured and killed, often for trivial reasons, sometimes for no reason at all. Worst of all in the breeder's eyes, the dogs became disobedient, sometimes not even recognizing him as their master. Because he could not bear their savagery, nor endure their arrogant disobedience, the breeder decided he must destroy them. He planned to kill them all.

Then he had another idea. He loved his dogs so much, in spite of their unremitting savagery, that he decided to put his young son in the dog pen as a model of innocence and virtue, to save the dogs from themselves. Surely, in the presence of such an obvious example, a teacher sent by their master, the dogs would be humbled and would learn to reject their monstrous ways. But in his heart the breeder knew this would not happen. He knew the dogs would kill his son. And they did. The dogs ripped away the young man's clothing and tore him to bloody pieces.

The insane breeder continued to love his dogs, and he told them, "Any of you who will believe this was my son, whom I allowed to be killed for your sakes, I will not punish, but I will bring you to live with me in my house."

Any human being who would do such a thing to his own son would rightly be condemned as insane, immoral and evil. In every human society, a person who abets the murder of an innocent for the sake of the unworthy, and calls it "love", is rightly regarded as insane, immoral and evil. If we would hold this opinion of a humble dog breeder, what then can we say of an omnipotent and omniscient Deity who does the same thing? How much more insane, immoral and evil must a Deity be, to commit a morally equivalent act? This is the plain and obvious moral abomination at the core of Christianity: the Christian God has the morals of an insane dog breeder who feeds his child to monsters. To deny this conclusion we must abandon not only reason, but simple human decency as well.

 

[des]

Well to me very much. I think it is unfortunate that the word myth has come to mean lie or falsehood. Myth is so much more and not that at all.
I use the word mythos which I believe may not have quite the same connotations, but then I have to explain myself. Oh well.
Some Native Americans said of their legends. "These didnt' really happen but they are true anyways." In the movie "Little Buddha", one of the monk says, "the children like these stories and they contain much truth." That suggests to me that they don't believe they literally happened. Western culture is so dualistic that people often think a myth can contain truth. So therefore in order to think these stories have any validity you have to demand they be taken at face value.

Of course, I am not a Christian in the most typical sense either, but I still find meaning in a lot of the Bible.

--des

Thanks Ravenwolf. Just to be clear, I'm not Christian. But since Unitarian Universalism came from the Christian tradition many of us still look to these stories for meaning. For me the story is true but that doesn't mean that I believe it literally happened. Does that make sense?

 

[CelticRavenwolf]

So you're saying the truth is in the message, not the telling?

That I get!

 

[joeboonda]

Well, the BIble tells us the truth of what happenned, twist it with limited human reasoning all day long, twist the greatest verse in the Bible, John 3:16, it is your free will to do so. Adam and Eve had free will, because God did not want to create mindless robots. The Fall was a horrible thing, for with sin came death, and with sin and death came all manner of terrible things on all creation. It is a Spiritual Law, just like Gravity is a Physical Law. The wages of sin is death. God's thoughts are far higher than our thoughts, His ways are not our ways, but He is a God of great love and mercy and wisdom and power. God is Love. But there are Spiritual Absolutes, there is evil, sin, and death. God does indeed love even the most foul-mouthed, blasphemous sinner that He paid the wages of sin, which is death, by dying for us. The word was with God and the Word was God, and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. Oh, to twist the glorious truth of the simple Gospel of Christ and condemn onesself, I pray God grants wisdom to those whose eyes are blinded to His Truth spelled out plainly in the pages of His Word.

 

[James the Persian]

i don't get it! if you look at things from a christian point of view, would a god of peace, love and FORGIVENESS really dish out the ultimate punishment for eternity? he expects us to forgive others, yet refuses to forgive us? what ever happened to 'practice what you preach'?

Scripture and Tradition actually tell us that we will be judged with the measure with which we judge others. So whether you are judged harshly and condemned or leniently and forgiven is entirely in your hands. It is not God that condemns a man but man who condemns himself (but then we do view heaven and hell rather differently from the western Christian view you appear to be railing against).

James

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Scripture and Tradition actually tell us that we will be judged with the measure with which we judge others. So whether you are judged harshly and condemned or leniently and forgiven is entirely in your hands. It is not God that condemns a man but man who condemns himself (but then we do view heaven and hell rather differently from the western Christian view you appear to be railing against).

James

This makes perfect sense to me.



Peace,
Mystic

 

[roli]

Haha, and Christians wonder why so many people are angry at them.

I'm sure if Jesus were here, he'd probably be more interested in talking to me about my life than reading the Bible to me. I'm sure Jesus and I would get along just fine, despite the fact that I'm not a Christian.
I'm not interested in not being responsible for my actions, or my words. Matter of fact I count on it, just as you can count on being held accountable for your own witness and your own attitude. Whether I end up in Heaven, Hell, Hades, the Summerland, the cold earth, or back in another body, I stand by my personal convictions. I'm not blaming my problems on anybody - I'm simply saying that it's a cold fact that there is a lot of animosity towards Christians these days, and it is people with hellfire and brimstone attitudes that help to create and fuel that animosity. If you won't even consider that, then I don't think I have anything at all left to say to you.

I agree whole heartedly with the fact that some Christians do put a distaste in christianity to the world,as they have for me.
But if you think that by you or me blaming any christian for any action they have personally done,directly or indirectly to me or anyone,especially the ones in the lime light, who cause even strong non christians and solid christians to question their faith even fall is going to justify anyone on judgement day ,many will be sadly mistaken.
We are all left with choices at the end of the day and God is able to reach you regardless of an insult or opposed personal attack against your person.

All have the free will to not just have an intellectual concept of Jesus but receive him.
Do you see that this is not preaching,as you also mistakenly label me as doing,several times.
It is called elaborating ,dialoguing,discussion,debate,etc,etc.
Although it sounds like preaching or evangelizing it is the topic I am discussing,the objections that are brought up,the knowledge I feel I have of the word and relationship with Jesus that I share.
I am trying to be civil and respectful as I to anyonewhich by the way I usually am speaking primarily in a general sense even if I am directing my response to specifically to you.
Jesus is the living embodiment of his word,as per scripture.
I agree he uses love and compassion to the poor and unlovable,even those who refuse to believe and follow him,but my point is He uses the word.
He says he resists the proud but gives grace to the humble,those who are broken and meek in spirit over their condition of sin in the eyes of God.
My point in this is you will never catch the words from my mouth telling someone they are going to hell,never,if you interprete it that way, I will apologize,explain and try to better myself in that regard.

I don't preach this hell fire and brimestone I think you have me stero typed with some other Christian.
Jesus did preach,sin, hell and judgement more times in the new testament and the whole of the bible then on hell.
Yes,he did do it out of love ,but he often was bold and recieved as arrogant,evil and unloving,not that I am justifying myself ,just setting the recored straight.

On another note ,without my preaching to you,why is it specifically that you chose not to serve Christ and trust him for salvation
I use alot of scripture here to try and show those who have misquoted,or have a misinterpretaion of scripture,I am not excempt from error .
But I do this type of dialoguing,discussions,debating in person,through TV, and as a lifestyle

 

[roli]

Haha, and Christians wonder why so many people are angry at them.

I'm sure if Jesus were here, he'd probably be more interested in talking to me about my life than reading the Bible to me. I'm sure Jesus and I would get along just fine, despite the fact that I'm not a Christian.
I'm not interested in not being responsible for my actions, or my words. Matter of fact I count on it, just as you can count on being held accountable for your own witness and your own attitude. Whether I end up in Heaven, Hell, Hades, the Summerland, the cold earth, or back in another body, I stand by my personal convictions. I'm not blaming my problems on anybody - I'm simply saying that it's a cold fact that there is a lot of animosity towards Christians these days, and it is people with hellfire and brimstone attitudes that help to create and fuel that animosity. If you won't even consider that, then I don't think I have anything at all left to say to you.

I agree whole heartedly with the fact that some Christians do put a distaste in christianity to the world,as they have for me.
But if you think that by you or me blaming any christian for any action they have personally done,directly or indirectly to me or anyone,especially the ones in the lime light, who cause even strong non christians and solid christians to question their faith even fall is going to justify anyone on judgement day ,many will be sadly mistaken.
We are all left with choices at the end of the day and God is able to reach you regardless of an insult or opposed personal attack against your person.

All have the free will to not just have an intellectual concept of Jesus but receive him.
Do you see that this is not preaching,as you also mistakenly label me as doing,several times.
It is called elaborating ,dialoguing,discussion,debate,etc,etc.
Although it sounds like preaching or evangelizing it is the topic I am discussing,the objections that are brought up,the knowledge I feel I have of the word and relationship with Jesus that I share.
I am trying to be civil and respectful as I to anyonewhich by the way I usually am speaking primarily in a general sense even if I am directing my response to specifically to you.
Jesus is the living embodiment of his word,as per scripture.
I agree he uses love and compassion to the poor and unlovable,even those who refuse to believe and follow him,but my point is He uses the word.
He says he resists the proud but gives grace to the humble,those who are broken and meek in spirit over their condition of sin in the eyes of God.
My point in this is you will never catch the words from my mouth telling someone they are going to hell,never,if you interprete it that way, I will apologize,explain and try to better myself in that regard.

I don't preach this hell fire and brimestone I think you have me stero typed with some other Christian.
Jesus did preach,sin, hell and judgement more times in the new testament and the whole of the bible then on hell.
Yes,he did do it out of love ,but he often was bold and recieved as arrogant,evil and unloving,not that I am justifying myself ,just setting the recored straight.

On another note ,without my preaching to you,why is it specifically that you chose not to serve Christ and trust him for salvation
I use alot of scripture here to try and show those who have misquoted,or have a misinterpretaion of scripture,I am not excempt from error .
But I do this type of dialoguing,discussions,debating in person,through TV, and as a lifestyle

 

[roli]

Haha, and Christians wonder why so many people are angry at them.

I'm sure if Jesus were here, he'd probably be more interested in talking to me about my life than reading the Bible to me. I'm sure Jesus and I would get along just fine, despite the fact that I'm not a Christian.
I'm not interested in not being responsible for my actions, or my words. Matter of fact I count on it, just as you can count on being held accountable for your own witness and your own attitude. Whether I end up in Heaven, Hell, Hades, the Summerland, the cold earth, or back in another body, I stand by my personal convictions. I'm not blaming my problems on anybody - I'm simply saying that it's a cold fact that there is a lot of animosity towards Christians these days, and it is people with hellfire and brimstone attitudes that help to create and fuel that animosity. If you won't even consider that, then I don't think I have anything at all left to say to you.

I agree whole heartedly with the fact that some Christians do put a distaste in christianity to the world,as they have for me.
But if you think that by you or me blaming any christian for any action they have personally done,directly or indirectly to me or anyone,especially the ones in the lime light, who cause even strong non christians and solid christians to question their faith even fall is going to justify anyone on judgement day ,many will be sadly mistaken.
We are all left with choices at the end of the day and God is able to reach you regardless of an insult or opposed personal attack against your person.

All have the free will to not just have an intellectual concept of Jesus but receive him.
Do you see that this is not preaching,as you also mistakenly label me as doing,several times.
It is called elaborating ,dialoguing,discussion,debate,etc,etc.
Although it sounds like preaching or evangelizing it is the topic I am discussing,the objections that are brought up,the knowledge I feel I have of the word and relationship with Jesus that I share.
I am trying to be civil and respectful as I to anyonewhich by the way I usually am speaking primarily in a general sense even if I am directing my response to specifically to you.
Jesus is the living embodiment of his word,as per scripture.
I agree he uses love and compassion to the poor and unlovable,even those who refuse to believe and follow him,but my point is He uses the word.
He says he resists the proud but gives grace to the humble,those who are broken and meek in spirit over their condition of sin in the eyes of God.
My point in this is you will never catch the words from my mouth telling someone they are going to hell,never,if you interprete it that way, I will apologize,explain and try to better myself in that regard.

I don't preach this hell fire and brimestone I think you have me stero typed with some other Christian.
Jesus did preach,sin, hell and judgement more times in the new testament and the whole of the bible then on hell.
Yes,he did do it out of love ,but he often was bold and recieved as arrogant,evil and unloving,not that I am justifying myself ,just setting the recored straight.

On another note ,without my preaching to you,why is it specifically that you chose not to serve Christ and trust him for salvation
I use alot of scripture here to try and show those who have misquoted,or have a misinterpretaion of scripture,I am not excempt from error .
But I do this type of dialoguing,discussions,debating in person,through TV, and as a lifestyle

 

[jmaster78]

So you're saying the truth is in the message, not the telling?

That I get!

if that is the case then why all the friction between christians, jews, and muslims? surely they are three versions of the same message, just different ways of telling it!

 

[jmaster78]

Well to me very much. I think it is unfortunate that the word myth has come to mean lie or falsehood. Myth is so much more and not that at all.
I use the word mythos which I believe may not have quite the same connotations, but then I have to explain myself. Oh well.
Some Native Americans said of their legends. "These didnt' really happen but they are true anyways." In the movie "Little Buddha", one of the monk says, "the children like these stories and they contain much truth." That suggests to me that they don't believe they literally happened. Western culture is so dualistic that people often think a myth can contain truth. So therefore in order to think these stories have any validity you have to demand they be taken at face value.

Of course, I am not a Christian in the most typical sense either, but I still find meaning in a lot of the Bible.

--des

Christianity confuses me, some christians are adament that the bible is the word of god, and that it is fact, other christians say it is not fact, only earthly stories to explain gods thinking. there fore i find myself confused as to whether it is fact or fiction based on fact. if it isn't the word of god, and only mans earthly interpretation, then why the attitude to say muslims or jews who are also take it as an interpretation?