Do You Think You Would Regret.....

[roli]

Dude, this reads like all your other posts so far. "My experiences and knowledge outweigh yours...nananananana" and then random preaching down to those who believe differently. Like MadLlama essentially said, you wouldn't believe anyone else's experiences and convictions anyway. You equate them to the teachings of demons. Well, let me tell you something. If it be demons teaching me to love the earth, my fellow men and women, revere nature, have respect for all things on this earth and beyond, then it sounds to me as if my demons have a bigger heart than your "God".

Who is your god would be a good place to start with,before I go any further
How can I understand what others believe and experience if all I here is arguements against Christ.
Of course I will question people who only rebut everything and never counteract a viewpoint with their own experiences.
I don't hear or see anyone talking specifically about their god in which you claim others have experienced,you defend others and their position, why is that, who is your god,what is your god,why do you believe,what does he say to you,why do you follow him ,what has he personally revealed to you about himself.
Why should he get your devotion

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I will tell you right off that the love of the buddist and the love that is found in Chirst are radically opposed.
Are you telling me that the love God has is equal to that of a mere man,named Budda
The budda was a man and God is ,well lack of better terms"" God" and he is not as some religions claim him to be ,which is flesh and blood.
There is a love that comes from God that is unlike that which comes through carnal men, guru's,sect leaders the like.
If you don't see this, we are heading no where,but again you must believe in God to see that.

Actually, I agree with you on some level that the loving kindness that is taught by Buddha and the "love of God" are somewhat opposed. However, those of us who are Dharma practitioners do not find this kind of opposition as grounds for competing for some turf. The Buddha-Dharma teaches that loving kindness and compassion are developed by proper practice, which is opposed to your teachings that love (not carnal love) is generated from the Holy Spirit, as in, an outside source - however, please correct me if I am mistaken.


The Buddha was most certainly a man, and not a God. As was Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, and our most beloved siddhi, Milarepa. This is grounds for inspiration for us to aspire to be like them, for they beginning with Gautama Buddha showed us the way to enlightenment as taught by Buddha himself.



We do not worship Buddha. We do not worship our gurus. We place our trust in what the Dharma teaches, which in some teachings is remarkably similar to what Jesus taught when it comes to unconditional love, to turning the other cheek............Buddhists are non-theistic, however, and this is where theologically we part ways.



Loving kindness is practice made perfect. Buddha taught that it can be so. Jesus was exemplary of such behavior, too. I do not find the Gospels to be offensive, and I do accept the teachings of Christ. You and I, however, seem to have differing interpretations of how the Gospels are to be applied to our lives and our interactions with each other.



So, back to topic, if I were to stand before God to find that I was totally wrong about my beliefs in him, despite the fact that I have all my life driven to evolve continually into a better person for others, to lead a more moral and spiritual life, and that I do my best to follow Christ's ethical and philosophical teachings in the way I understand them..............and if I am still booted to an eternal hell?



Such makings of a creator God is akin to a madman and filled with more suffering than I would have previously thought. If this is actually true, then my prayers go out to him even more. He is in more need to be free from his anger and attachments and his undue suffering that he reaps upon himself and other sentient beings.



This, of course, is only if I follow your logic, Roli. I do not want you to feel attacked, but I simply do not believe the afterlife to be such as you describe. If I were faced with such a being, regret is not my feeling. I vow to remain compassionate, and not fearful nor angry.




Peace,
Mystic

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Who is your god would be a good place to start with,before I go any further
How can I understand what others believe and experience if all I here is arguements against Christ.

Your interactions thus far have not shown genuine attempts at understanding, but have instead focused on how everyone else is wrong. Arguments are not against Christ, but against your interpretation of Scripture.

Of course I will question people who only rebut everything and never counteract a viewpoint with their own experiences.
I don't hear or see anyone talking specifically about their god in which you claim others have experienced,you defend others and their position, why is that, who is your god,what is your god,why do you believe,what does he say to you,why do you follow him ,what has he personally revealed to you about himself.
Why should he get your devotion

Why not check out the DIR forums, post respectful and non-combative questions, and learn a little more from the actual pracitioners of each faith before taking on certain debating points that pertain to them?



Peace,
Mystic

 

[roli]

I don't believe in any god.

Do you really care about the religious beliefs of others? Or, do you just want to know so that you can explain why their beliefs are invalid?

Ya that must be it!! Tell me why you don't really believe in God or a god and maybe we can have a discussion that pertains to the purpose of this forum.
Are you possibly looking for a politically correct forum that just agrees with everything and everyone to avoid conflict and being challenged.
Why is it that you are on this forum,what interested you to sign up ,if all you do is oppose those who voice strong personal convictions when the opportunity presents itself.

I am not angry in any way at your claims. It doesn't matter to me if you believe that your way is the only way, or that you believe in whatever god. However, I am curious why you expect everyone to read your posts and just automatically agree with you?

There you go again,do see what your doing here,the same thing you say I am doingI
I don't expect anyone to read them,I just respond to those like yourself who write with opposing thoughts and concepts to mine,never claiming that everything I say should be agreed with,that's why they call this a theological concepts forum.
What kind of forum are expecting here ,one that just remains the status quo.

Should I agree with you and just lay down my opposing thoughts and concepts about my God when they are spoken of falsely, misquoted and misunderstood.

Are you trying to say that your god is the only one that could possibly be loved, love back, or do any beneficial for a person? That yours is the only one worthy of devotion? Do you know anything at all about any gods or religions outside of your own?
Most of my friends are Wiccans, and their gods certainly love them, support them, and they have a very strong personal relationship with them. I am not them, so I wouldn't be in a position to tell you exactly what, but to me, their spiritual practice and devotion to their beliefs is just as valid as anyone elses, yours included.

I thought that this is a forum for people to open up about their personal gods ,what they do for them ,why they are deserving of their devotion etc.
When I say ,my God says this about sin ,law righteousness,judgement,eternal life,I guess I am expecting someone to share what their god says in regards to such issues.
Not do what your doing and slam me for assuming my way is the way.this and that.
If exploiting me as some self righteous ,extremist who allows no thought of others,on that I must confess your way off target about my personal agenda and motive for being here.
It only appears that way to you and of course others willl also assume that that is my motive.Many I find tend to jump on band wagons around here,especially when it comes to an outspoken Christian.
Listen, christianity and it's concepts have never,I repeat never, been user friendly or politically correct to the mainstream of society ,today or in Jesus day.
If christianity was as politically correct as the world inists we should be,Jesus would have made no impact on the world and God's purpose for sending him would have remained unfulfilled.
I consider everyone that opposes any concepts or viewpoints of Christianity is not opposing the messenger as they attest,but only the message.
I mean they killed Jesus,his own people, because his saying were to strong
Give me a position and a viewpoint about your religious or non religious convictions and we'll have a meanigful discussion.But can you do that without jumping to conclusions and assumptions about my motives.

You seem to be the only one who sees this as a competition. The rest of us are just annoyed that someone could possibly believe that their spiritual experience is the only valid one.

Now you speak for the rest of the people.
Again if, you are on this forum then lets talk religious concepts and experiences.
Again ,that is not my position ,only your synoposis.
Is that the best you can do to defame my person,you only exonerate yourself and position and look to be the hero here.
Take your issues to my chief in command

Probably because most of us are here to learn, rather than win converts or convince everyone else that our religion is the right one. That's really not what the forum is here for anyway.

That is interesting that you say that,what have you learned on this forum about others viewpoints and claims of their personal belifs and convictions.
I mean what have you walked away with in all the time you have been on this forum.
Do you despise everyone who thinks there is a god,as you don't have one,are you closer to finding a god that may bring purpose to your life etc.
What have you learned ???

Possibly, it's because most people look to thier faith to help them live well, act correctly and love others, rather than waiting for god to give them instruction on when to sneeze. A good number of people here have thier own opinion without having to use some sort of religious scripture to back it up

Are you the spokesman for the people
Faith in what ,please tell me where your faith is and avoid speaking on behalf of others all the time.
See how you exploit my God and make condesending remarks to help validate your point.You do this all the time,let's talk theological concepts and experiences
Are you angry at God did he do something that offended you. ??
Why don't you have a god ? Why are you really on this forum
I really am interested,but all you seem to want to do is avoid this request.
Humor me as to why you don't have a god,email me personally if you want.
Then you can see if I respond to you as unconcerned as you have publicly portrayed me

No where do I ever assert that my experiences are the be all end all,I have stated that serveral times ,but the best response you can give is to assume I said this ,am doing this.
I have always said that my God,claims what he claims ,I don't claim anything,who am I to even attempt to try.

 

[MaddLlama]

Ya that must be it!! Tell me why you don't really believe in God or a god and maybe we can have a discussion that pertains to the purpose of this forum.

It's really very simple - I don't see the need for any sort of supernatural power in my life, and I don't believe its necessary to believe in a god to have a spiritually fulfilled life.

Are you possibly looking for a politically correct forum that just agrees with everything and everyone to avoid conflict and being challenged.

I don't know what gave you that idea. Just because I don't happen to agree with you doesn't mean that I want everyone to agree with me. That would be a futile hope.

Why is it that you are on this forum,what interested you to sign up ,if all you do is oppose those who voice strong personal convictions when the opportunity presents itself.

Again, just because I don't agree with your asessment than no spiritual experiences outside of you own can possibly be valid, does not mean that my life's purpose is to contradict people. And, I think I've demonstrated that in my 3,000 or so posts. I disagree with a number of people, but that's to be expected since there are a large number of people here with an extremely wide range of personal convictions.

Should I agree with you and just lay down my opposing thoughts and concepts about my God when they are spoken of falsely, misquoted and misunderstood.

I never asked you to. I only asked you to possibly consider that someone elses spiritual experiences with the gods they believe in may be as valid as your own. I am not sure why you are so hostile to this idea.

When I say ,my God says this about sin ,law righteousness,judgement,eternal life,I guess I am expecting someone to share what their god says in regards to such issues.

Well, I think that's your problem.....if you want people to tell you about thier own personal beliefs, you can't start off by talking about your own. If you talk about you and your beliefs and your god, people will respond specifically to those ideas. If you want to pick a subject and find out what other religions say on the subject, you ask a question. There is a difference between saying "My religion says sin is this, this, this and this", and asking "does your religion have a concept of sin, or wrongdoing". Do you see the difference?

Not do what your doing and slam me for assuming my way is the way.this and that. If exploiting me as some self righteous ,extremist who allows no thought of others,on that I must confess your way off target about my personal agenda and motive for being here.

Well, I can only go on what I see. So far what I have seen is that you believe your way is the one and only correct way, and nobody elses experiences are as meaningful as yours. And, I haven't seen you really express a genuine interest in other faiths. If I am wrong, then show me. Maybe do as Heather suggested and ask some respectful questions in the DIR section.

Listen, christianity and it's concepts have never,I repeat never, been user friendly or politically correct to the mainstream of society ,today or in Jesus day.

Nobody is askng you to be "PC" or to not talk about what you believe. I personally am just asking that you consider showing some respect to the beliefs of others. Did Jesus teach you to respect only those who agree with you?

I consider everyone that opposes any concepts or viewpoints of Christianity is not opposing the messenger as they attest,but only the message.

Well, that's fine, and you can think that if you want. However, you're not inside my head, so I am not sure you can accurately predict what I'm thinking.

Give me a position and a viewpoint about your religious or non religious convictions and we'll have a meanigful discussion.But can you do that without jumping to conclusions and assumptions about my motives.

Fine. What would you like to know?

That is interesting that you say that,what have you learned on this forum about others viewpoints and claims of their personal belifs and convictions.
I mean what have you walked away with in all the time you have been on this forum.

I have learned a great deal in the 9 months or so that I've been here, not the least of which is beginning to discover a real spiritual "sense of self". I would say that if I left right this instant, I would be walking away with a great deal.

Do you despise everyone who thinks there is a god,as you don't have one,are you closer to finding a god that may bring purpose to your life etc.

I have never said that I hate people who believe in god, I don't know why you would make that assumption. I am close to finding true spiritual fulfillment, but I am not interested in "finding god". I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive.

Are you angry at God did he do something that offended you. ??
Why don't you have a god ? Why are you really on this forum
I really am interested,but all you seem to want to do is avoid this request.
Humor me as to why you don't have a god,email me personally if you want.
Then you can see if I respond to you as unconcerned as you have publicly portrayed me

How can I be angry at something I don't believe exists? That, to me, is an illogical concept. I already explained eariler in the post why I don't believe in a god. I am here because I happen to enjoy learning about other religions (whether or not I agree or disagree with their beliefs is irrelevant to the learning process).

No where do I ever assert that my experiences are the be all end all,I have stated that serveral times ,but the best response you can give is to assume I said this ,am doing this. I have always said that my God,claims what he claims ,I don't claim anything,who am I to even attempt to try.

Well, then do you believe that the spiritual experiences and faith of a Buddhist or a Wiccan are just as good as your own?

 

[roli]

]It's really very simple - I don't see the need for any sort of supernatural power in my life, and I don't believe its necessary to believe in a god to have a spiritually fulfilled life.

Thanks I appreciate the honesty, why do you think as a christian I or any Christian see the need for a supernatural power ,Savior,or for that matter any person who pursues a supernatural power activated in their life.
Is it because we are discontent with ourself,or unable to deal with life on our own,as some allude we are weak and therefore need some supernatural means to help you,could you explain
Are you saying your capable of being self fulfilled spiritually by external means,for instance,through words,thoughts, deeds etc
I mean I don't know how one can have a spiritual experience in and of their self,how does that work.

I only asked you to possibly consider that someone elses spiritual experiences with the gods they believe in may be as valid as your own. I am not sure why you are so hostile to this idea.

I do consider and know of many who have spiritual experiences are going through one as we speak.
But it seems to me a spiritual experience is always synonymous with some external revelation or encounter with source outside the natural realm.
I guess I could do something for someone or read a book and have an awakening of sorts maybe even what one might classify as a spiritual experience,but what really is a spiritual experience.
Is it with self or an external supernaturalsource

Well, I think that's your problem.....if you want people to tell you about thier own personal beliefs, you can't start off by talking about your own. If you talk about you and your beliefs and your god, people will respond specifically to those ideas. If you want to pick a subject and find out what other religions say on the subject, you ask a question. There is a difference between saying "My religion says sin is this, this, this and this", and asking "does your religion have a concept of sin, or wrongdoing". Do you see the difference?

Ok, What do you say about sin,what is it to you and do you feel you have sin in your life and if so what do you feel is the outcome.

Well, I can only go on what I see. So far what I have seen is that you believe your way is the one and only correct way, and nobody elses experiences are as meaningful as yours. And, I haven't seen you really express a genuine interest in other faiths. If I am wrong, then show me. Maybe do as Heather suggested and ask some respectful questions in the DIR section.

I am sorry that you have got that impression but on the contrary

Nobody is askng you to be "PC" or to not talk about what you believe. I personally am just asking that you consider showing some respect to the beliefs of others. Did Jesus teach you to respect only those who agree with you?

Because I stand firm on what I believe,try to correct false ideas that others may have regarding my faith and it's doctrines and liberally share what my faith teaches boldly to make a point,does not classify me as disrespectful,regardless of the impression it gives to those outside.

Fine. What would you like to know?

Why does God,Jesus not fit into your life,is there not enough proof of his existence,has something happened that has offended you,there are many that this has happened to. Why is the God of the bible not something for you to believe in.

I have learned a great deal in the 9 months or so that I've been here, not the least of which is beginning to discover a real spiritual "sense of self". I would say that if I left right this instant, I would be walking away with a great deal.

Have you found the purpose to life, I mean where you came from,why your here,where your going. Is that a jouney that the journey your on.
Self actualization,or as you put it a real spiritual sense of self,what does that actually mean,how will you attain that

I am close to finding true spiritual fulfillment, but I am not interested in "finding god". I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive.

What does that look like to you,I mean if you said that to someone and they said how are you going about that ,what would you say to them.
In my God's eyes,man's means to spiritual awareness and the spiritual experience that comes through His Holy Spirit are diametrically opposed as opposite ends of the spectrum.
I know you said you don't believe they are exclusive,but may I just share the purpose of christianity all these years is that we can have the full spiritual life with God through his son.Does that mean man cannot have a spiritual experience without God,no.
What if, hypothetically speaking man's self attained spritual experience apart from God was so far below what God wants and has for us through a spiritual experience with him,could this be possible.
If my God felt we could attain this apart from Jesus then Christianity would therefore be void of it's existence,no purpose.
That is totally why Jesus claimed to come, because man cannot attain to the spiritual life that is required for man to know and be reconciled with God.
I just thought I would share this perspective ,not intended to nulify your viewpoint but to hear what your response is


How can I be angry at something I don't believe exists? That, to me, is an illogical concept. I already explained eariler in the post why I don't believe in a god. I am here because I happen to enjoy learning about other religions (whether or not I agree or disagree with their beliefs is irrelevant to the learning process).
I am sorry ,but I never recalled any of your posts stating why you don't believe in God,I may have toatally missed it but could you refresh my memory.

Well, then do you believe that the spiritual experiences and faith of a Buddhist or a Wiccan are just as good as your own

I may believe that they are good to the individual and may be truth as they perceive it,but you will never catch me saying mine are more valid then theirs.
I will believe however that mine are in fact related to the God who I believe created us and the world and who knows are frame,our every move and purpose and that through that experience I have been given assurance and confirmation, a gaurantee that He is who he says and that he did for us what he claimes and that I will live forever with him.
If there is one God we can't possibly have so many different views and doctrines that counteract each other and the Christians God's word,that would be a divided house and that is not God of the bible
I will not convince anyone of this as it is a personal experience that one must travel himself, as I am sure the Buddist says about his pursuit.
When I found God, I need not look else where,he satisfies my longing soul.
Maybe that is actually how a Buddist feels as well ,I am not sure.
The question here is how much self actualization and awareness,self determination ,self will is involved in your pursuit.
In christianity, it is all about God and not about self,totally opposed to new age practices and other doctrines that claim you must find oneself before you find enlightenment and or your path.
Jesus says that if you want to follow me you must die to the self and you will live .
He says if you try to self exist on your own merit and ability you will die Luke 9:23

 

[MaddLlama]

Thanks I appreciate the honesty, why do you think as a christian I or any Christian see the need for a supernatural power ,Savior,or for that matter any person who pursues a supernatural power activated in their life.
Is it because we are discontent with ourself,or unable to deal with life on our own,as some allude we are weak and therefore need some supernatural means to help you,could you explain

I wouldn't ever say that people who believe in god are weak, or that non-theists are somehow intellectually stronger. Really, I wouldn't presuppose to know why one person is more inclined to believe in god, or a particular religion, and others aren't. There are a large number of factors that could lead to any decision.

Are you saying your capable of being self fulfilled spiritually by external means,for instance,through words,thoughts, deeds etc
I mean I don't know how one can have a spiritual experience in and of their self,how does that work.

My spiritual "temperment", as it were, falls more in line with Eastern ways of thinking, with practices such as Taoism and Buddhism catching my deepest attention. They are spiritual systems, however they are non-theistic.

I do consider and know of many who have spiritual experiences are going through one as we speak. But it seems to me a spiritual experience is always synonymous with some external revelation or encounter with source outside the natural realm.

Not always. I would say that the earth itself, with all of its elements, components, and own little miracles is itself a source of spiritual experience. This is one of the core beliefs of modern Paganism (though, also, a lot of it's spiritual experience comes from deities also).

Ok, What do you say about sin,what is it to you and do you feel you have sin in your life and if so what do you feel is the outcome.

I am more of a believer in karma, than a concept of sin. Karma is like the spiritual form of Newtonian physics - In the moral sphere of conscious actions, we have a counterpart to the physical law of action and reaction, the law that every intentional, will action must have its effect. To state it more simply, karma is more than just an "incorrect" action, it is our actions, however qualified (as good, bad or neutral), and
the effect of that action (it's concequence, or fruit).
Anyway, that's my understanding of the concept. Heather may correct me, and I defer to her since she's the Buddhist =)

Because I stand firm on what I believe,try to correct false ideas that others may have regarding my faith and it's doctrines and liberally share what my faith teaches boldly to make a point,does not classify me as disrespectful,regardless of the impression it gives to those outside.

I'm sorry if I misjudged you then.

Why does God,Jesus not fit into your life,is there not enough proof of his existence,has something happened that has offended you,there are many that this has happened to. Why is the God of the bible not something for you to believe in.

The easy answer, I guess, is that I have had little to no success forming a relationship of any kind with any deity. I did have my problems when I was a Christian (with other people), but that wasn't the reason I chose to walk away. My decision was based on the realization that it was better for me to follow my own personal beliefs, rather than try to beat them into submission to be in line with something that I could never really internalize. I suppose I don't believe that religious should tell us what to believe, but rather than religion is an expression, or fit, of what you already believe.

Have you found the purpose to life, I mean where you came from,why your here,where your going. Is that a jouney that the journey your on.
Self actualization,or as you put it a real spiritual sense of self,what does that actually mean,how will you attain that

I don't think I've found the "purpose of life". But, I'm fairly young so I'm still on the road to getting there. The journey is part of life, I think. If you're asking about my feelings on life after death, I believe in reincarnation.
As far as self-actualization, what I mean is that I think each person has their own "spiritual home" (as in, what makes sense to one person may not to another), and I'm just looking to find what that is.

What does that look like to you,I mean if you said that to someone and they said how are you going about that ,what would you say to them.

For me, it was, and sill is, a process of trial and error. There are any "options" out there, and to me it is difficult to say that one thing is the truth when you haven't experienced anything else. But, at the same time I can see the opposite viewpoint - if something is the truth, then there's no need to experience anything else.
I guess my point is that I believe spirituality (which I would quantify as the active practice of religious beliefs) is a dynamic and personal process.

I know you said you don't believe they are exclusive,but may I just share the purpose of christianity all these years is that we can have the full spiritual life with God through his son.Does that mean man cannot have a spiritual experience without God,no.
What if, hypothetically speaking man's self attained spritual experience apart from God was so far below what God wants and has for us through a spiritual experience with him,could this be possible.
If my God felt we could attain this apart from Jesus then Christianity would therefore be void of it's existence,no purpose.
That is totally why Jesus claimed to come, because man cannot attain to the spiritual life that is required for man to know and be reconciled with God.
I just thought I would share this perspective ,not intended to nulify your viewpoint but to hear what your response is

I don't think there's anything wrong with that; Christianity is a self-contained system. If it wasn't it would fall apart at the seams. I think that spiritual experience through god is just as good as spiritual experience through something like the teachings of Buddha or spiritual experience through connection with the earth.

I am sorry ,but I never recalled any of your posts stating why you don't believe in God,I may have toatally missed it but could you refresh my memory.

I did in my last post, I said: "I don't see the need for any sort of supernatural power in my life, and I don't believe its necessary to believe in a god to have a spiritually fulfilled life."

 

[yuvgotmel]

Roli.. I have been debating whether to respond to you for over a hour...but your posts involve so many issues to discuss that I find it difficult to know where to start. Why don't you try being a bit more specific?

 

[des]

It think some of the confusion may be due to the beginnings of Christianity, say as opposed to Islam or Judaism, which had fairly clear "fathers". Who speaks for Christianity-- Jesus, Paul, the early Church, St. Augustine, etc. etc.? The early church was also very diverse with bands of gnostics and others (actually cults, but not in the degenerate connotation of the term).

There has also been a running argument that can be defended scripturally either way but is it works, grace, or grace/works?

(I am not attempting to answer any of these.)

There is also an Orthodox tradition, a Roman Catholic tradition, a reformed tradition and a mystic tradition (of course the same no. of different traditions probably exists in other faiths as well. Anyway these have radically different world views.

It is safe to say there are differences within these as well. The strictly literal vs a more nuanced reading probably dates from Bible scholarship.
There are certain things known via scholarship and analysis of the works themselves. For instance, hell is mostly mentioned in Matthew. The writer of Matthew (not necessarily named Matthew), was percueted as a Christian. I'm sure he was pretty ticked! In Matthew are all of the references to hell except two I think. Scholars say things like the ideas are filtered thru someone's own culture, history, and experience. Some Christians totallly dismiss Bible scholarship as irrelevant,a nd some embrace it, and some feel a bit mixed about it. SOme find their own scholars.

I think that those Christians who take the Bible more as a work of humans will tend to think that Islam and Judaism--as well as Hinduism and Buddhism, etc. etc. are right in part (or in total, and that they just share a different vision of the truth or some explanation like that). Literal readers will not tend to think that.

The thing is the press on seeing all this has grabbed hold of the literalist view of Christianity and that's the one everyone thinks is the only one.
It is also quite popular right now. They have more vocal spokespersons.

It might be proper to say that there are Christianities vs. Christianity as one discrete thing, because I actually think they are distinct enough to be different religions. Of course this might go for other religions as well. The Wasahbis (sp?) are certainly quite discrete from the Sufis!

[When I say I'm not typically Christian, I probably don't even fit into any of these, although I think if I had my choice it would be mystic. But I suspect I'm not too good a one, being someone who likes to cogitate and analyze things to death. I also think that Jesus was a great prophet but don't consider him to be god. (That is a unitarian, non-trinitarian position-- for more confusion.)]

I hope that helps. Might confuse more.

BTW, for an interesting read, some of you might enjoy Living Buddha, Living Christ, for a very interesting comparison of Christianity (mainly the holy spirit) and Buddha (mostly Buddha nature).
--des

Christianity confuses me, some christians are adament that the bible is the word of god, and that it is fact, other christians say it is not fact, only earthly stories to explain gods thinking. there fore i find myself confused as to whether it is fact or fiction based on fact. if it isn't the word of god, and only mans earthly interpretation, then why the attitude to say muslims or jews who are also take it as an interpretation?

 

[eudaimonia]

Such makings of a creator God is akin to a madman and filled with more suffering than I would have previously thought. If this is actually true, then my prayers go out to him even more. He is in more need to be free from his anger and attachments and his undue suffering that he reaps upon himself and other sentient beings.

Yes, if I were to meet such a God, I think I could not help but feel a twinge of pity and sadness for him. I would want to help him mature and find wisdom.

Perhaps this is why such a God would create human beings -- to help him get over his psychological turmoil.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I am more of a believer in karma, than a concept of sin. Karma is like the spiritual form of Newtonian physics - In the moral sphere of conscious actions, we have a counterpart to the physical law of action and reaction, the law that every intentional, will action must have its effect. To state it more simply, karma is more than just an "incorrect" action, it is our actions, however qualified (as good, bad or neutral), and
the effect of that action (it's concequence, or fruit).
Anyway, that's my understanding of the concept. Heather may correct me, and I defer to her since she's the Buddhist =)

I can't give you frubals right now, my dear, so I'm merely peeking in to say that you are on the right track. Karma is cause and effect. To "get this" you need to "have this." And to "have this" you need to "do this"...............if you can sort of visualize my hand gestures right now implying a linear connection. LOL



It's the way the universe works. You reap what you sow. Very basic, yet very difficult for many to wrap their heads around since it can seem like in bad instances that our system "blames the victim" and in good instances that it's either luck or we were somehow entitled to such good fortune.



Deconstructing the concept of karma down to a mechanical explanation as you've done and how Seyorni did in the "Karma/Sin" thread is a good way to define it.



Peace,
Mystic

 

[Draka]

Who is your god would be a good place to start with,before I go any further
How can I understand what others believe and experience if all I here is arguements against Christ.
Of course I will question people who only rebut everything and never counteract a viewpoint with their own experiences.
I don't hear or see anyone talking specifically about their god in which you claim others have experienced,you defend others and their position, why is that, who is your god,what is your god,why do you believe,what does he say to you,why do you follow him ,what has he personally revealed to you about himself.
Why should he get your devotion

Why should I relate to you my conversations with Her? What is personally revealed to me by Her is for me...not you. That you simply can't understand that some people have knowledge and experience of their god(s) that they don't feel the need to publicize everywhere doesn't discredit that they are as real to them as your god is to you. Just because we don't need everyone in the world to believe exactly the same way as us and that we understand that there are several paths to the same place doesn't mean our path is any less valid that your overly-publicized one. You truly have not shared any of your "experiences" either. You simply quote bible passages and paraphrase rhetoric. Why should any of the rest of us have to back up our convictions with describing personal detail when all you have to do is refer to a book? It's like setting us all down for a test of our personal beliefs but you get to take it "open-book".

You ask all these "why"s...my only answer is "because". Because She has revealed enough to me for me to believe. Because I feel Her. Because. And that is enough for me.

 

[des]

Part of the world view of some Christians consists of an activity referred
to sometimes as testimony or witnessing (and other terms). This consists of telling your story to others which would be followed by others telling their story to you. It perhaps is founded on literal reading of some scriptures.

I think it might be assumed by some Christians that this activity is a universal one and that all faiths engage in this. In fact, not all Christians do-- so it is certainly true that not everyone does.

Another actitivity that some Christians (and Muslems) participate in is scriptural quoting. So you give line and verse to prove your point of view. Not everyone finds this particularly meaningful. If you don't feel that the Bible is the last/only authority then that activity is virtually meaningless. If you believe that it is the only authority then it is. Usually the more literally people read the Bible then the more they participate in this. People who read it more metaphorically won't do this because they tend to believe the Bible "contains truth", rather than "being true". This might sound like the same thing but I don't think it is.

I think sometimes people need a translator. What is going on and why are people doing it. I am trying my best to keep this in as neutral of terms as possible and probably not always succeeding.

Therefore, I don't think any offense was intended by these remarks, but to some others they may come off as sounding offensive. "Tell me your conversations" is an invitation for you to give a testimony (and then it can go the other way, for instance "what is your testimony". But if your tradition or belief doesn't contain this idea it sounds like "tell me your inner most thoughts and ideas".

There may or may not be other motivations. But for our purposes we should assume the best, unless proven wrong.

--des

Why should I relate to you my conversations with Her? What is personally revealed to me by Her is for me...not you. That you simply can't understand that some people have knowledge and experience of their god(s) that they don't feel the need to publicize everywhere doesn't discredit that they are as real to them as your god is to you. Just because we don't need everyone in the world to believe exactly the same way as us and that we understand that there are several paths to the same place doesn't mean our path is any less valid that your overly-publicized one. You truly have not shared any of your "experiences" either. You simply quote bible passages and paraphrase rhetoric. Why should any of the rest of us have to back up our convictions with describing personal detail when all you have to do is refer to a book? It's like setting us all down for a test of our personal beliefs but you get to take it "open-book".

You ask all these "why"s...my only answer is "because". Because She has revealed enough to me for me to believe. Because I feel Her. Because. And that is enough for me.

 

[roli]

I wouldn't ever say that people who believe in god are weak, or that non-theists are somehow intellectually stronger. Really, I wouldn't presuppose to know why one person is more inclined to believe in god, or a particular religion, and others aren't. There are a large number of factors that could lead to any decision

.

I agree and it makes it interesting and intriguing for me to actually learn from them as to what motivates them to pursue that particular religion.

My spiritual "temperment", as it were, falls more in line with Eastern ways of thinking, with practices such as Taoism and Buddhism catching my deepest attention. They are spiritual systems, however they are non-theistic.

Is'nt the emphasis more on psychology and philosophy and based on an interpretation of your preception of reality,kind of a brief synopsis if I may dare.

Not always. I would say that the earth itself, with all of its elements, components, and own little miracles is itself a source of spiritual experience. This is one of the core beliefs of modern Paganism (though, also, a lot of it's spiritual experience comes from deities also).

I agree that this earth, in it's vast array of wonders can give one a, kind of spiritual experience, I guess, for lack of better terms

I am more of a believer in karma, than a concept of sin. Karma is like the spiritual form of Newtonian physics - In the moral sphere of conscious actions, we have a counterpart to the physical law of action and reaction, the law that every intentional, will action must have its effect. To state it more simply, karma is more than just an "incorrect" action, it is our actions, however qualified (as good, bad or neutral), and
the effect of that action (it's concequence, or fruit).
Anyway, that's my understanding of the concept. Heather may correct me, and I defer to her since she's the Buddhist =)

Actually ,karma is much like a principal that is found in theists doctrines,and synonymous with the phrases we use today in general conversation and in science," cause and effect" or " for every action there is an opposite or equal reaction" .what goes around comes around
This pricipal in theists doctrine is actually considered a law, " the law of reaping and sowing" . It's ironic I found this quote about Taoism regarding the law as well
"Taoism views the universe and all of its manifestations as operating according to a set of unchanging, natural laws."
http://www.jadedragon.com/archives/march98/tao1.html
It is quoted in scripture like this " if you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption" or if you sow sparingly you will reap sparingly, " whatsoever a man sows so shall he likewise reap.
It basically says what ever you do it will come back to you and not always what you are anticipating.

Is that theistic principal similar to karma??

I'm sorry if I misjudged you then.

I appreciate your sensitivity,we all tend to do it and I am no exception and for that I likewise apologize

The easy answer, I guess, is that I have had little to no success forming a relationship of any kind with any deity. I did have my problems when I was a Christian (with other people), but that wasn't the reason I chose to walk away. My decision was based on the realization that it was better for me to follow my own personal beliefs, rather than try to beat them into submission to be in line with something that I could never really internalize. I suppose I don't believe that religious should tell us what to believe, but rather than religion is an expression, or fit, of what you already believe.

Not that I am the judge as to whether one is a christian or not, again that is God's job,but there are ways we as followers of Christ can recognise one
It's interesting to hear the answers when I ask professing Christians what a christian is to them and how does one attain to that position.
I swear I have heard alot of things that are so off from what Christ showed and taught us.
What was your experience as a christian? if it's not to personal a question.




I

don't think I've found the "purpose of life". But, I'm fairly young so I'm still on the road to getting there. The journey is part of life, I think. If you're asking about my feelings on life after death, I believe in reincarnation.
As far as self-actualization, what I mean is that I think each person has their own "spiritual home" (as in, what makes sense to one person may not to another), and I'm just looking to find what that is.

Well ,searching is an always better then sitting still and possibly remaining closed minded.
If I gave up because of all the defects found in christians and the church,I may nevver have found ,what I consider the undeniable ,varifiable truth and purpose to life.
Found in God, I mean
As that may seem bold and assertive and absolute sounding statement it is how I truly feel based on my experience and findings .

For me, it was, and sill is, a process of trial and error. There are any "options" out there, and to me it is difficult to say that one thing is the truth when you haven't experienced anything else. But, at the same time I can see the opposite viewpoint - if something is the truth, then there's no need to experience anything else.
I guess my point is that I believe spirituality (which I would quantify as the active practice of religious beliefs) is a dynamic and personal process.

I think I understand what your saying and agree that it is often a process of trial and error that seems to open up the potential for a spiritual need and percipatates you towards an experience or persoanl encounter of sorts.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that; Christianity is a self-contained system. If it wasn't it would fall apart at the seams. I think that spiritual experience through god is just as good as spiritual experience through something like the teachings of Buddha or spiritual experience through connection with the earth.

It is I suppose to the extent of your experience,but what if there is another experience the one you feel you just had.
i mean for instance, what if a most amazing encounter was just awaiting you around the corner from your initial christian expereince,but the road block or deterrent that caused you to change courses if you will, was in actuality the catalyst that would have placed into that ultimate spiritual encounter,fulfilling all you ever anticipated.
Hypotheically speaking of course,just a thought.

 

[MaddLlama]

Not that I am the judge as to whether one is a christian or not, again that is God's job,but there are ways we as followers of Christ can recognise one
It's interesting to hear the answers when I ask professing Christians what a christian is to them and how does one attain to that position.
I swear I have heard alot of things that are so off from what Christ showed and taught us.
What was your experience as a christian? if it's not to personal a question.

It may be true that I wasn't "really" a Christian at all. I've been told that many many times by the friends I used to have that convinced me that being Christian would change my life. Oh, yes it changed my life alright; as a result of my dedication to my newfound faith, my depression got worse, I hated myself, and I nearly ruined my relationship with my (now) husband. I essentially spent the entire time fighting against what I actually believed (which at the time was not Christianity), trying to force myself to believe in something else. Well, it didn't work out very well, and I eventually figured out that it wasn't worth trying. I can accept the judgement that I may not have been a Christian at all, but only if you can accept that I won't try it again for fear of a repeat performance. I'm prefectly fine with going forward, I don't need to go backwards.

It is I suppose to the extent of your experience,but what if there is another experience the one you feel you just had.
i mean for instance, what if a most amazing encounter was just awaiting you around the corner from your initial christian expereince,but the road block or deterrent that caused you to change courses if you will, was in actuality the catalyst that would have placed into that ultimate spiritual encounter,fulfilling all you ever anticipated.
Hypotheically speaking of course,just a thought.

I think that is unlikely, considering my negative experience. But, if it were true, I'm not interested in going through all that again. I would prefer to find a "revalational" experience through another system, and frankly I think that's a much more likely scenario.

 

[roli]

Why should I relate to you my conversations with Her? What is personally revealed to me by Her is for me...not you. That you simply can't understand that some people have knowledge and experience of their god(s) that they don't feel the need to publicize everywhere doesn't discredit that they are as real to them as your god is to you. Just because we don't need everyone in the world to believe exactly the same way as us and that we understand that there are several paths to the same place doesn't mean our path is any less valid that your overly-publicized one. You truly have not shared any of your "experiences" either. You simply quote bible passages and paraphrase rhetoric. Why should any of the rest of us have to back up our convictions with describing personal detail when all you have to do is refer to a book? It's like setting us all down for a test of our personal beliefs but you get to take it "open-book".

You ask all these "why"s...my only answer is "because". Because She has revealed enough to me for me to believe. Because I feel Her. Because. And that is enough for me.

The reason why I share scripture many times is to clear up the misconceptions of how people interpret God or christians.I'd be more than happy to share my experience ,my testimony it's just that this rhetoric you believe I speak is in response to the rhetoric I feel is introduced in certain threads.
I am continually sharing about my faith and it's practices ,why I believe etc.
I just don't here people sharing much of their own beliefs,not to mention any of their own doctrines,what it says and how one is to act in response to that particular religion.
But we can start fresh and begin to share experiences whenever you wish,ask away.

 

[roli]

Roli.. I have been debating whether to respond to you for over a hour...but your posts involve so many issues to discuss that I find it difficult to know where to start. Why don't you try being a bit more specific?

I guess you can sum it up in this ,if their is a God of creation and you stood before him on that day ,after you die ,would you have any regrets as to the choices you made in opposition to the christian doctrines.
.

 

[des]

But, as i was saying this concept is not entirely translatable to other belief systems-- the idea of "sharing" your testimony. It is one, in fact, that might be anathema to others, or just peculiar. I'm NOT saying it is bad or wrong. But you can't necessarily expect that others will jump up and say, "And this is why the goddess is important to me" or whatever.

--des

The reason why I share scripture many times is to clear up the misconceptions of how people interpret God or christians.I'd be more than happy to share my experience ,my testimony it's just that this rhetoric you believe I speak is in response to the rhetoric I feel is introduced in certain threads.
I am continually sharing about my faith and it's practices ,why I believe etc.
I just don't here people sharing much of their own beliefs,not to mention any of their own doctrines,what it says and how one is to act in response to that particular religion.
But we can start fresh and begin to share experiences whenever you wish,ask away.

 

[roli]

It may be true that I wasn't "really" a Christian at all. I've been told that many many times by the friends I used to have that convinced me that being Christian would change my life. Oh, yes it changed my life alright; as a result of my dedication to my newfound faith, my depression got worse, I hated myself, and I nearly ruined my relationship with my (now) husband. I essentially spent the entire time fighting against what I actually believed (which at the time was not Christianity), trying to force myself to believe in something else. Well, it didn't work out very well, and I eventually figured out that it wasn't worth trying. I can accept the judgement that I may not have been a Christian at all, but only if you can accept that I won't try it again for fear of a repeat performance. I'm prefectly fine with going forward, I don't need to go backwards.

It's ironic that you shared this, as the person who spoke in our church today actually was talking about what you actually went through,not specifically but generally speaking of how when we come to Christ,some preachers preach that everything will be better ,but in fact, things more times then not seem to get worse.
Why is that, well I can only personally give an answer of our own journey,as hindsight is 20/20.
But I think the answers for us only came as we continued to move forward and believe God was doing a greater work in us regardless of our full understanding of it all .

It is not what we had anticipated when we started down this road and does'nt fit into the logic one may have when they come to know Christ as Savior.
It is actually quite trying on that individual's decisions and more likely on their overall experience with God as I can see it was for you.
But when the dust settled we clearly saw the work that was being done in us both.
I appreciate your honesty and transparency and I can really understand what your going through in that my wife has been a christian for 6 years and for the better portion of those 6 yrs has sufferend with depression.
I have been on fire for God and have pressed in dramatically for these years ,but it has certainly taking it's toll on us ,but at the same time our faith and relationship with God is causing us to draw closer to one another in ways I believe never would have transpired if not for this situation.
I must also say that we have only been married 6 yrs so it has been extremely difficult to trust and believe God through this whole ordeal.

I think that is unlikely, considering my negative experience. But, if it were true, I'm not interested in going through all that again. I would prefer to find a "revalational" experience through another system, and frankly I think that's a much more likely scenario

I can totally understand your position.

 

[roli]

But, as i was saying this concept is not entirely translatable to other belief systems-- the idea of "sharing" your testimony. It is one, in fact, that might be anathema to others, or just peculiar. I'm NOT saying it is bad or wrong. But you can't necessarily expect that others will jump up and say, "And this is why the goddess is important to me" or whatever.

--des

I don't expect anything I guess from anyone in regards to expression of one's faith,or religious convictions and experiences,I am just putting it out there if anyone is interested in sharing.
I hear some strong positions on how others have faith and personal convictions of their religions,and how real they may be,so I just thought some may share what their religion or beliefs have done to better their life,bring hope,purpose.

Should'nt one be willing to want to share the good that one's religious pursuits have brought.