Do you think revenge is okay?

[The Sum of Awe]

In the acts of revenge that you've alluded to, you've deliberately caused someone pain. Can you prove, to the extent that there is no doubt whatsoever, that those people purposely hurt you?

If you can't, you're running a risk of purposely "sharing the pain" someone who hurt you accidentally.

And if you can prove it, why not just turn the evidence over to the police and let them handle it?

It's a difficult situation at best when people can't prove someone did something, and those situations do come up, and as a practitioner of revenge I've come across this situation. There's a saying - Don't just point fingers and assume things. Usually not all things need revenge, some people have really low tolerance. There's gotta be a limit.

The question isn't why shouldn't I turn the evidence into the police, the question is why should I?

You think there's fairness in revenge?

Certain examples of revenge - If someone punches me, what kind of fairness is it to let them go care free? If someone steals money from me, what kind of fairness is it to let them go while you, the good guy, lost money, and them, they bad guy, got more money?

Explain the fairness in the following scenario:
The teenager down the street deliberately sets fire to your house, and burns it to the ground. What do you do in order to "share the pain", "get even", get "a kind of fairness", or get "equality" with this teenager.

Make the teenager pay the price of the house and everything in it.

I'm guessing that you'd burn his house to the ground.

Don't just guess


You're lying to yourself.

Here's a real-world scenario:
My grandparents were murdered by two robbers who were trying to break into their apartment. While it wasn't premeditated, it was deliberate.

If you were in my shoes, it sounds like you'd shoot them and take pleasure in getting even ... and that's purely selfish.

How is it selfish? I bet they don't even feel bad, so it is fair to make them feel the balance of pain.

And if you think the extended family gets equal pleasure from you shooting the robbers, then you should get sufficient pleasure in letting the law take care of getting justice. (In reality, punishing/killing the guilty doesn't allow anyone to feel at ease. Real closure comes from within.)

Personal relationships do not extend into the matters of extended family. It's only the relationship between you and the person talking to you. If they hurt you bad enough, why not hurt them for equality? If they kiss you? Well... get'em a thank you note or kiss them back!

At least I.S.L.A.M617 is willing to admit that he's just seeking his own self-gratification. As monstrous as it is, his belief is internally consistent, while yours requires that you lie to yourself about your own motives, the impact of your actions, the feelings of those around you...

If you believe that I only do it out of self gratification and view me as a monster, then I don't wish to participate with someone who holds such a negative view of me. Every time I have taken revenge, which is a very rare occasion, I always think about getting even, not about them feeling pain. In fact, some of the times I felt bad for getting back at them, but in my head I know it's fair.

Of course, if I was living in a lawless society and had I.S.L.A.M617 as a brother, I'd put him down like a rabid dog, purely as an act of self-preservation before he got us all killed in a sick blood feud. He clearly puts his own self-gratification over anybody else's well-being, including his family's. In a lawless society where community is everything, that attitude is a liability to anybody close to him.

That's disturbing to hear.

In a modern society, I'd tip I.S.L.A.M617 off to the police. When he got out of prison, I'd kill him in self-defense before he could get revenge against me for sending him to prison. There wouldn't be any pleasure or gratification in it. Just painful necessity.

You're assuming that he's going to hurt you just because of his opinions, that does not count as self-defense.

Also, did I ever say I had a problem with self defense?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Revenge and punishment are not the same thing.

Mind explaining why not?

 

[Caladan]

Do you think revenge is morally acceptable as a goal in itself under some contexts? If you think so, when do you think it is morally okay? Under which contexts?

For the most part I don't have time for revenge, especially for petty revenge. I tend to forgive and forget.
However there is a deeper sense of personal and collective justice that I cultivate for those rare occasions. Revenge for great offences does bring me peace, knowing that a true villain got what they deserved.

I think it runs in my family. My grandfather had a very developed sense of justice. And while in his personal life he had no enemies I can think of, and people were charmed by him. As a WWII veteran I know he executed plenty of revenge on Nazi and axis soldiers, and no I don't mean torture for gratification, I mean revenge in battle where you allow yourself being loose in basic humanity or general conventions and inflict terrorizing pain on your enemy (and yes there is basic humanity in battle that many soldiers keep and adhere to).

I don't lose sleep over despots being killed, or any other person that did vile things to other human beings out of sheer cruelty. I don't lose sleep over the fact that any person that committed an unforgivable offence based on bad intentions or sometimes stupidity got what was coming to them. Even if it was vigilante justice.
There comes a time when a person has no one to count on but themselves, when a person needs to take what is theirs. It could be pride, justice, or vengeance.

To answer the OP, at large my conditions for revenge: If a specific individual did something terrible to you and you go for revenge, focus on them and minimize collateral damage. Also, don't be petty. Don't seek revenge for anything, sometimes it's better to be the bigger man and let things slide, eventually making the other person look like a clown. Revenge should be reserved for real ********, and should be served cold.

 

[Willamena]

Mind explaining why not?

You can look it up on wikipedia. Mostly, punishment is an authoritative response, but revenge is personal. It's pretty hard to pass the one off for the other.

Take George W. Bush for example. There was a lot of debate after he took the country to war over whether his actions were a punishment for attacking America or a revenge on Osama Bin Laden. If the latter, it was his own ego that took America in to war, and ego that said: he hurt me and mine, so I'm going to hurt him. Similarly, the killing of Bin Laden is debatable: to the British, it looked like an assassination in light of the gross violation of Pakastani laws and the inability of 79 armed commandos to take one man alive. These kinds of debates all draw a distinct line between punishment and revenge.

 

[moodys]

For the most part I don't have time for revenge, especially for petty revenge. I tend to forgive and forget.
However there is a deeper sense of personal and collective justice that I cultivate for those rare occasions. Revenge for great offences does bring me peace, knowing that a true villain got what they deserved.

I think it runs in my family. My grandfather had a very developed sense of justice. And while in his personal life he had no enemies I can think of, and people were charmed by him. As a WWII veteran I know he executed plenty of revenge on Nazi and axis soldiers, and no I don't mean torture for gratification, I mean revenge in battle where you allow yourself being loose in basic humanity or general conventions and inflict terrorizing pain on your enemy (and yes there is basic humanity in battle that many soldiers keep and adhere to).

I don't lose sleep over despots being killed, or any other person that did vile things to other human beings out of sheer cruelty. I don't lose sleep over the fact that any person that committed an unforgivable offence based on bad intentions or sometimes stupidity got what was coming to them. Even if it was vigilante justice.
There comes a time when a person has no one to count on but themselves, when a person needs to take what is theirs. It could be pride, justice, or vengeance.

To answer the OP, at large my conditions for revenge: If a specific individual did something terrible to you and you go for revenge, focus on them and minimize collateral damage. Also, don't be petty. Don't seek revenge for anything, sometimes it's better to be the bigger man and let things slide, eventually making the other person look like a clown. Revenge should be reserved for real ********, and should be served cold.

Agreed, I couldn't word it better than that. I think in certain circumstances revenge is certainly an attractive option. I have never understood why victims of certain activities (be it rape, bullying, cyber-bullying, pedophilia etc, etc.) take their own lives and commit suicide without first taking some sort of retaliatory measures and against their perpetrators. It would make much more sense to deal with them first and then perhaps afterwards commit suicide.

 

[Revoltingest]

You forgot "don't call the police"

I figgered that was a given.
Anyone who would feel the need to confess their revenge to the cops isn't qualified or worthy to exact vengeance.

 

[Willamena]

I figgered that was a given.
Anyone who would feel the need to confess their revenge to the cops isn't qualified or worthy to exact vengeance.

It's always a given when you're aware that you're committing a crime.

Edit:

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

It's always a given when you're aware that you're committing a crime.

Do you mean to tell me that you have never once taken revenge on somebody, or thought about it and were too scared to go through with it? Based on your responses, I'd say the latter is more likely, but you're still in no position to judge. The desire for revenge is a natural part of everybody's mentality. Some of us are just brave enough to go through with it. Be careful your ears don't pop on your way down from that high road...

 

[Willamena]

Do you mean to tell me that you have never once taken revenge on somebody, or thought about it and were too scared to go through with it? Based on your responses, I'd say the latter is more likely, but you're still in no position to judge. The desire for revenge is a natural part of everybody's mentality. Some of us are just brave enough to go through with it. Be careful your ears don't pop on your way down from that high road...

Sure I did... as a child.

But I had a mom, you see, who told me that I shouldn't do something that I know is wrong just because others did something wrong to me. "Two wrongs don't make a right," she said, and "That would make you just as bad as them" (and we all know we want to aspire to that higher standard of "good").

An adult mentality thinks for itself.

 

[YmirGF]

Do you mean to tell me that you have never once taken revenge on somebody, or thought about it and were too scared to go through with it? Based on your responses, I'd say the latter is more likely, but you're still in no position to judge. The desire for revenge is a natural part of everybody's mentality. Some of us are just brave enough to go through with it. Be careful your ears don't pop on your way down from that high road...

This reminds me of my experience with my ex-brother-in-law. We did not get on well... to be kind. My revenge for his sadistic abuse was to merrily dance on his grave. I remember a police officer asked me what my relationship was to the deceased and I instantly replied, "He is my brother-in-law." Then, as I walked down the hallway, back to where he lay, dead on the floor, I turned and radiantly smiled while emphasizing, "EX-brother-in-law!"

 

[Willamena]

To answer the OP, at large my conditions for revenge: If a specific individual did something terrible to you and you go for revenge, focus on them and minimize collateral damage. Also, don't be petty.

I really strongly agree with this part. If you're wanting to get revenge on one guy, don't blow up the world.

 

[YmirGF]

I really strongly agree with this part. If you're wanting to get revenge on one guy, don't blow up the world.

Indeed. Stay focused. Relish the moment, but don't labor on it too much.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

But I had a mom, you see, who told me that I shouldn't do something that I know is wrong just because others did something wrong to me. "Two wrongs don't make a right," she said, and "That would make you just as bad as them"

My mom said the same thing, but also told me not to be a sucker. You can guess which lesson I chose to run with.

(and we all know we want to aspire to that higher standard of "good").

Speak for yourself. I can care less whether or not anyone thinks I'm a "good" person... I'll take success over benevolence any day.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Indeed. Stay focused. Relish the moment, but don't labor on it too much.

But intricate revenge is the best kind. Hatching a plot.... Mmmmm.....

 

[Karl R]

Personal relationships do not extend into the matters of extended family. It's only the relationship between you and the person talking to you. If they hurt you bad enough, why not hurt them for equality?

Are you saying that a person shouldn't avenge his murdered grandparents (and neither should his family members), because it's the dead grandparents' responsibility to get their own revenge? :slap:

Does someone want to explain to The Sum of Awe why my dead grandparents can't get revenge for their own murder?

The question isn't why shouldn't I turn the evidence into the police, the question is why should I?

You're interested in fairness (or at least you're trying to use fairness as an argument that revenge is okay).

If you are accused of a crime, should your accuser be the only person to decide your guilt and choose your punishment, or should an impartial third party decide what is the just punishment for what you did?

For someone who is interested in fairness, you don't seem very interested in the concept of a fair trial.

Make the teenager pay the price of the house and everything in it.

That's not an act of revenge. That's compensatory damages. It's perfectly legal, and the court system will assist you in making him pay for what you lost.

Apparently I was mistaken when I guessed that you understood the definition of "revenge".

Certain examples of revenge - [...] If someone steals money from me, what kind of fairness is it to let them go while you, the good guy, lost money, and them, they bad guy, got more money?

Recovering your twenty dollars from them isn't an act of revenge. The law recognizes it under both compensation and restitution. The law will actually assist you in recovering that money.

Certain examples of revenge - If someone punches me, what kind of fairness is it to let them go care free?
[...]
Every time I have taken revenge, which is a very rare occasion, I always think about getting even, not about them feeling pain. In fact, some of the times I felt bad for getting back at them, but in my head I know it's fair.

Why is fairness so important to you that you're willing to make your own life worse (even if it's just feeling bad) in order to make things "fair"?

About six years ago I was accosted by four teenagers while walking down the street. (I suspect they did it as part of a gang initiation.) Two of them punched me (one punched me right below the temple, one right above the base of my skull). I pulled a knife in order to defend myself. There was a tense couple of minutes when I wasn't sure if they were going to back off. I had just resigned myself to the likelihood that I'd need to start killing them to get out alive when they finally backed off and continued on their way.

Fights are dangerous and unpredictable. If I had tried to punch them back, the violent situation would have continued and become more dangerous. My risk of getting hurt and/or killed would have increased. It would have also increased the likelihood that I would have been forced to kill one of them just to ensure my own survival.

My primary goal was to survive. My secondary goal (a distant second) was to get out of the situation without killing anyone.

By letting the teenagers walk away unscathed, I accomplished both of those goals.

I bet they don't even feel bad, so it is fair to make them feel the balance of pain.

Of course they didn't feel bad. They were gang-banger wannabes.

I value my own life more than I value fairness or making them feel bad. I value avoiding a grand jury and/or trial (which I might have faced if I had killed the teenagers in self-defense) more than I value fairness or making them feel bad. I value my peace of mind (because killing someone comes with a psychological cost) more than I do fairness. If I had killed those kids in self-defense, I probably would have received death threats and could have been attacked by the relatives of the kids.

My life is a lot better in the long run, because I'm willing to tolerate a little unfairness, and I was willing to let them walk away feeling good.

What kind of sugar-coated world do you live in where the worst possible response to a punch is another punch?

You're assuming that he's going to hurt you just because of his opinions, that does not count as self-defense.

Given that his words state his mindset and his intent at future actions, and my actions (turning him over to the police) would reasonably give him motive to seek revenge, I'd say that my assumption is based on more than my opinions. Furthermore, I bet a jury would see it the exact same way.

 

[InChrist]

I believe revenge belongs to the LORD.

Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”says the Lord. Therefore“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head.”

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12:19-21

 

[YmirGF]

I believe revenge belongs to the LORD.

I don't mean any disrespect, honest. However, I do refer to such moments above as "invoking my Siva aspect". So, in some respects, it is leaving it to god... I am but a tool... and a very naughty one, at that.

 

[InChrist]

I don't mean any disrespect, honest. However, I do refer to such moments above as "invoking my Siva aspect". So, in some respects, it is leaving it to god... I am but a tool... and a very naughty one, at that.

I don't take your comments as disrespect, but I suppose at least from the biblical point of view it makes a difference which God is the One who has authority to initiate and take revenge in any given situation.

 

[Quagmire]

Revenge accomplishes nothing, and is childish.

And usually back-fires (which is really the only thing I have against it).

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

And usually back-fires (which is really the only thing I have against it).

Not if you're smart about it.