Do you think revenge is okay?

[Vouthon]

Real fariness means everyone feels well and good.

Anything that makes this less possible is not fair.

As such, any action that goes in place with damaging someone else without it being for stopping new damage or other similar goal, is against fairness on my view.

I completely agree :yes:

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Life is unfair... We learn that from the beginning. The pursuit of fairness for everyone is a delusional goal. Personal advancement is the only way to get ahead in life, even if it must be at the expense of others sometimes. Spend your whole life trying to make everyone happy, and you'll know true misery.

 

[Me Myself]

The best revenge is living well. That said, revenge is a dish best served cold.

I agree on the first claim

I often encourage such revenge to exes with my friends.

 

[Vouthon]

Spend your whole life trying to make everyone happy, and you'll know true misery.

Spend your whole life trying to make yourself happy without reference to others and you'll find nothing except short-term pleasures that don't amount to lasting happiness but rather leave you constantly craving for more but never finding true, lifelong satisfaction.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in the pursuit of happiness however we are social beings and so without reference to the common good of others we cannot and will never find any "lasting" happiness.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

My initial point being that the Japanese example highlights the perils of pursuing "vengeance"/"eye for an eye" to its ugly, monstrous and extreme conclusion when it transgresses all moral bounds.

I do not think that such a philosophy is a fruitful one upon which to base an individual's personal moral values and ethical framework.

You say ugly, I say just. In the end, neither of us is either right or wrong. If "eye for an eye makes the world blind", my goal is to be the last man with an eye.

 

[Vouthon]

You say ugly, I say just. In the end, neither of us is either right or wrong. If "eye for an eye makes the world blind", my goal is to be the last man with an eye.

It is "just" to invade a country that has never harmed you, butcher its people, cede its territory and then further expand into other territories to cause a regional war that drags in the superpowers and results in your own defeat and annihilation, simply because you want to be "the last" country standing at the top with absolute world power that you will never attain? Eye for eye when it is allowed to fester leads to such delusion, seeing the need for "vengeance" when no wrong was even committed.

And you wish to apply this to the individual level and be the "last" standing? Such a mind-set can lead only to self-destruction.

 

[Karl R]

I do believe revenge is the truest form of justice, though. If someone kills a friend/relative of mine, it's only fair that I kill one of theirs, or the killer him/herself.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. Let's say you're texting and driving, and because you're engaging in distracted driving, you accidentally run over my cousin who is cycling home from work. You would see it as the "truest form of justice" for me to commit premeditated murder against your mother as a form of revenge. As you said, since you killed one of mine, it's only fair that I kill one of yours.

If I were to die as a result of carrying out justice on behalf of someone close to me, I would view that as an beautiful death, and that's perfectly OK with me.

Is it equally beautiful if someone chooses to target your friends or relatives instead? Will those friends and relatives agree with you that their own death (caused by your choice to pursue revenge instead of another option) was a beautiful thing? Will their other friends and family agree that their death their death (caused by your choice) was a beautiful thing?

And before anyone mentions the "circle of revenge"; I don't deny that person's family/friends the right to seek revenge on me either.

Acts of revenge/retaliation/retribution don't form a cycle. They form an escalating system, because the person aims to hurt the other person worse than they've been hurt.

I watched this happen most frequently in social circumstances. One person would unintentionally do something that offended someone else. The person who was offended would assume that it was an intentional insult, and would retaliate accordingly. The first person would find themselves as the victim of (from their perspective) an unprovoked attack, so they would retaliate, but to a greater degree than they'd been attacked. One act of stupidity would turn into an escalating spiral of revenge, until it got messy enough that an authority figure had to take notice (teachers, bosses, police).

Seeking revenge is stupid and ineffective. It doesn't undo the original wrong. It doesn't gain appropriate restitution for the wrong that occurred. It doesn't prevent additional wrongs from occurring. (In a revenge-based society, it pretty much guarantees that additional wrongs will occur.)

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

It is "just" to invade a country that has never harmed you, butcher its people, cede its territory and then further expand into other territories to cause a regional war that drags in the superpowers and results in your own defeat and annihilation, simply because you want to be "the last" country standing at the top with absolute world power that you will never attain?

Depends on your definition of "just". I believe personal gain is the purest of intentions. You might or might not succeed, but I give credit and respect to anyone that tries. Personally, I'd burn the world to be king of the ashes.

And you wish to apply this to the individual level and be the "last" standing? Such a mind-set can lead only to self-destruction.

If that's what it takes to get where I want to go. If someone doesn't want to get trampled, they need only join me or move out of the way.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

Let me see if I understand this correctly. Let's say you're texting and driving, and because you're engaging in distracted driving, you accidentally run over my cousin who is cycling home from work. You would see it as the "truest form of justice" for me to commit premeditated murder against your mother as a form of revenge. As you said, since you killed one of mine, it's only fair that I kill one of yours.

Yes.

Is it equally beautiful if someone chooses to target your friends or relatives instead?

I don't place higher values on certain lives, though some people may be more important to me personally. I would do everything in my power to stop them, but if they succeed then that's justice. Life isn't always fair, including for me.

Will those friends and relatives agree with you that their own death (caused by your choice to pursue revenge instead of another option) was a beautiful thing?

Will their other friends and family agree that their death their death (caused by your choice) was a beautiful thing?

These questions are irrelevant. I don't care what other people think, nor can I speak for them; I was only giving my opinion.

Acts of revenge/retaliation/retribution don't form a cycle. They form an escalating system, because the person aims to hurt the other person worse than they've been hurt.

I wouldn't call that justice, but I couldn't really reason against it either.

Seeking revenge is stupid and ineffective. It doesn't undo the original wrong. It doesn't gain appropriate restitution for the wrong that occurred. It doesn't prevent additional wrongs from occurring. (In a revenge-based society, it pretty much guarantees that additional wrongs will occur.)

The purpose isn't to undo any wrong done. It's simply a matter of gratification.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Why is gratification from a sense of vengeance necessarily immoral?

Well, actually I would see any sense of gratification as morally neutral. I don't see it as immoral.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Real fariness means everyone feels well and good.

Anything that makes this less possible is not fair.

As such, any action that goes in place with damaging someone else without it being for stopping new damage or other similar goal, is against fairness on my view.

I guess 'fair' doesn't mean what I thought it meant, I'm gonna replace that with 'equal'.

Everyone being well and good is impossible, everything being even is also impossible and a disaster.

But between a close and personal relationship, it is best that it is equal and even - if your friend jacks 20 dollars, and stealing 20 dollars back from him is just making it even, and is not morally wrong, even if it doesn't make him stop stealing.

If someone punches you, why should you shrug it off, or for certain extremists why should you turn the other cheek or say thank you?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

And in the "getting even" the person inflicts suffering on the other person, continuing the cycle of pain started (at least I would assume in our hypothetical case) by the other person when it could have ended with that person and some good could have come from it.

You're assuming two things:

Assuming that it will stop of you induce it anyways.

or

Assuming that it will continue if you don't induce it.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Spend your whole life trying to make yourself happy without reference to others and you'll find nothing except short-term pleasures that don't amount to lasting happiness but rather leave you constantly craving for more but never finding true, lifelong satisfaction.

Don't get me wrong, I believe in the pursuit of happiness however we are social beings and so without reference to the common good of others we cannot and will never find any "lasting" happiness.

Revenge doesn't imply selfishness. It implies, from a universal perspective of a personal social experience, equality.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Let me see if I understand this correctly. Let's say you're texting and driving, and because you're engaging in distracted driving, you accidentally run over my cousin who is cycling home from work. You would see it as the "truest form of justice" for me to commit premeditated murder against your mother as a form of revenge. As you said, since you killed one of mine, it's only fair that I kill one of yours.

There's a difference between hurting someone accidentally, and hurting someone purposely.

 

[Willamena]

But between a close and personal relationship, it is best that it is equal and even - if your friend jacks 20 dollars, and stealing 20 dollars back from him is just making it even, and is not morally wrong, even if it doesn't make him stop stealing.

That's using someone else's actions to excuse yours.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

That's using someone else's actions to excuse yours.

And it's a damn good excuse...

 

[Willamena]

And it's a damn good excuse...

It's no excuse.

Someone else's behavior is not an excuse for your behavior. You are the only one who can determine your behavior, and so the only one responsible for your behavior.


...Don't people have mothers anymore?

 

[Me Myself]

I guess 'fair' doesn't mean what I thought it meant, I'm gonna replace that with 'equal'.

Everyone being well and good is impossible, everything being even is also impossible and a disaster.

But between a close and personal relationship, it is best that it is equal and even - if your friend jacks 20 dollars, and stealing 20 dollars back from him is just making it even, and is not morally wrong, even if it doesn't make him stop stealing.

If someone punches you, why should you shrug it off, or for certain extremists why should you turn the other cheek or say thank you?

I sad which was the meaning to me of fair. If your "friend" steals form you, you go find out new friends you can actually trust.

If someone pushes you, the best way to go will be different in different contexts.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

It's no excuse.

Someone else's behavior is not an excuse for your behavior. You are the only one who can determine your behavior, and so the only one responsible for your behavior.


...Don't people have mothers anymore?

So you're supposed to carry on 20 dollars short like a chooch? My mother taught me not to be taken advantage of.

 

[I.S.L.A.M617]

I sad which was the meaning to me of fair. If your "friend" steals form you, you go find out new friends you can actually trust.

Finding new friends won't get your money back.