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Do liberals and atheists honestly think Hitler represents Christianity?

Eugenics is a rejection of rationalism, so no on that one.

It wasn't at the time. The early 20th C equivalent of you would have a very good chance of supporting eugenics: progressive-ish, advocate of scientific-rationalism, etc.

Anyway, while scientific racialism (also considered progressive and rational at the time) has been scientifically refuted, much of eugenics is still valid. It's applied to numerous other species after all.

The rejection is on ethical grounds, not rationalist.

How on earth are you linking secular humanism to the Iraq War? AFAIK, most if the decision-makers on it weren't even secular humanists.

According to your logic, not all people need to agree to make something 'authentic'. Secular Humanists like Christopher Hitchens were passionate advocates of war. Given that many original neo-cons were originally secular, progressive Democrats, I'd imagine some of the actual decision makers and influencers would be Secular Humanists.

It's undeniable that some SHs supported the war based on SH principles under the guise of liberal interventionism.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Ah, I see. Anything which doesn't fit into your chosen narrative is "Christian apologetics". That must be convenient.
.

Projection. Strawman. False claim-- by you-- AGAIN.

I could turn that around: Anything that does not fit with your Christian Apologetic Worldview? Must automatically be false.

Right?

As for me? There are a lot of stupid things I do not think are reasonable, that have zip-all to do with christians, christianity or any of that Bronze Age superstition.

But according to YOU? I WOULD CALL THOSE "CHRISTIAN APOLOGETICS"?

LMAO! you really don't get this, do you?


Wikipedia? LMAO! That is so FUNNY it's hilarious! Dude! GET A REAL SOURCE.

Dismissed.
It's not your opposition to Christianity per se that I take issue with, it's that you have demonstrated that you will push outright untruths. What you're claiming, it just ain't true.
.

Nope. true. you just hate it, because it paints your cult out for what it is.
I just don't see what half coherent rants about that Bible has to do with this discussion.
.

Of course! You are blind...
You'll notice that good Wikipedia articles cite their sources. As such, Wikipedia is fine for this level of discussion. If you find a more authoritative source which contradicts Wikipedia then by all means.....

LMAO! Then point to those sources-- no? LOL!
You yourself have offered nothing but assertion.
.

Better than ... you. Who thinks wikipedia is ... a source! LMAO!
I can't even strawman you because you've offered nothing in terms of an argument.
.

You don't know what "straw man" means... do you?

Your posts boils down to this: "Hitler was a devout Christian because I say so, any claim to the contrary (by that fact alone) is Christian apologetics".
.

Nope. My claim points directly to Hitler's own diaries, and own writings.

A FACT YOU IGNORE TO 100%. Typical.

A theist can be a methodological materialist, but that's not the materialism being talked about. We're talking about philosophical materialism, the denial of any reality beyond the interactions of matter. How you square that with theism is beyond me unless you claim unconscious matter itself is God. It doesn't even matter anyway because the Marxist regimes declared themselves atheist. And those who were not willing to profess atheism were brutalized and killed in their thousands..

Again? You demonstrate that YOU and ONLY YOU get to define what "theism" is.

Must be nice to be GOD.
So much atheist rhetoric these days hammers on and on about the pernicious influence of religion in the perpetuation of extreme ideologies. .

Because it's an accurate criticism. Dark Ages, anyone? Crusades? Need I continue?

Obviously, these lessons are 100% lost on you...
I bring up the Communist regimes not because I think any given atheist is a closet Stalinist who wants to kill me, but as a counterexample to the narrative that extreme ideology is a religious thing. .

Communism is very close to RELIGION, not athiesm, which has NO A RULES.

Atheism is ONE THING: A rejection of the claim "God Exists". THAT IS IT.

Whereas Communism? Is chock-FULL of bull-exhaust JUST LIKE ALL RELIGIONS.
Communism has proven itself an evil, murderous ideology and it is explicitly atheist in doctrine. .

LMAO! Here? you lie in the last line, because you are clueless what 'atheism' means.

Typical lying theist...
Nazism on the other hand isn't inherently atheistic but that dosen't make it Christian. If anything, at least in among many of the higher rungs of the party, it was occultist..

So? Christian is occultist in many of it's variations. In fact, being occultist is VERY BIBLICAL.

Lots of biblical references to MAGIC, GHOSTS, DEVILS, SPIRITS, WITCHES, MAGIC-USERS and the like. Lots of MAGIC, too.

I see no difference.

Wikipedia is a theist conspiracy now? And you're calling me cute?.

No. Wikipedia is literally a POPULARITY CONTEST.

And christians are the MOST POPULAR among English-speakers. So, naturally, Wikipedia is highly SKEWED to the Christian Lie/Narrative.

But since that is YOUR narrative? You like it very much.
It's fun that you feel entitled to hand wave whatever you don't like away on the mere assertion that anything not in line with your narrative must be Christian propaganda. We can't possibly entertain the notion that you could be wrong. No, you're an atheist, therefore you're always right..

It's must be fun to be GOD and get to set what IS and what IS NOT "'theism"...

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it Christian apologetics.

LOL! If YOU are presenting it? The odds are better than 9 out of 10, that it actually is christian apologetics...

That seems to be 100% of your methodology.
 

ronki23

Well-Known Member

Read what @Augustus said:

During the Mao era the communist state’s attitude toward many traditional practices was hostile, and ancestor worship was harshly suppressed throughout society (Davis-Friedmann 1991; Davis 1993; Parish and Whyte 1978; Whyte 1988; Whyte
and Parish 1984). Still under the ancestors’ shadow? Ancestor worship and family formation in contemporary China - A Hu & F Tian

Also not sure how ancestor worship could THRIVE during the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution given that spirits were said to reside in specific pieces of land, or objects. The collectivisation of farmland disconnected people from their family lands and the destruction of old objects and pre-communist cultural artefacts destroyed the 'homes' of the spirits.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
The majority of historians concur with Kershaw and Richard Overy; The Dictators: Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia; Allen Lane/Penguin; 2004, pp. 287, to the effect that: "During the War [Hitler] reflected that in the long run, ‘National Socialism and religion will no longer be able to exist together'. Hitler wanted a neutered religion, subservient to the state, while the slow programme of scientific revelation destroyed the foundation of religious myth." In terms of Christianity in particular, he could not have been more privately disgusted by it. Joseph Goebbels (Fred Taylor Translation); The Goebbels Diaries 1939–41; Hamish Hamilton Ltd; London; 1982; ISBN 0-241-10893-4 : In his entry for 29 April 1941, Goebbels noted long discussions about the Vatican and Christianity, and wrote: "The Fuhrer is a fierce opponent of all that humbug".

This doesn't mean that German Christian culture didn't influence the development of Nazi ideology, although it certainly wasn't the prevalent influence (I reckon it did in point 24 of the original NSDAP programme but alongside such disparate sources as the Völkisch movement, classical Greek philosophy and the Roman Empire, Nietzsche, Social Darwinism, biological racism, romantic nationalism, the freikorps right-wing paramilitaries fighting the Weimar Republic, Thule society etc. etc.). The Nazis were infamously eclectic in their inspirations and so it cannot be said that any particular group "owns" them - not Christians, not atheists, not pagans. It was a uniquely awful system unto itself. If they belong to anyone, they belong to Europe and the West as a whole - a reminder of one particularly dark route our civilization could have taken, based upon evil within our very culture.

National Socialism was a melange, a great cauldron of themes lifted from contradictory sources, hoovering up much of the worst parts of Western intellectual history from Plato's advocacy of proto-racial hygene and killing of invalids, attributed to Socrates, in The Republic, to Ancient Sparta's policy of eugenic state murder of deformed babies, militarism and forced enslavement of helots to Nietzsche's Overman and yes Martin Luther's anti-Jewish writings too.

And yes, they had to appeal to a mass audience in a predominantly Protestant society, but under the guiding logic of a belief in a great 'law of nature' that mandated racial struggle between biological superiors and inferiors for 'living space' (lebensraum). This guiding principle was certainly not Christian in origin - indeed the churches had, since the late 19th century, been one of the sole institutions consistently condemning the rise of involuntary euthanasia, eugenics and biological racism, which became popular amongst a range of liberal European thinkers, including HG Wells and British Prime Minister Asquith, by 1914. It was socially darwinian (pseudo-scientistic), as all competent experts in the field recognise.

In 1910, Churchill wrote to the then-British Prime Minister, Asquith, expressing his support for legislation that proposed to introduce a compulsory sterilisation program in the UK, saying: “The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the feeble-minded and insane classes, coupled as it is with a steady restriction among the thrifty , energetic and superior stocks, constitutes a national and race danger which it is impossible to exaggerate … I feel that the source from which the stream of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed up before another year has passed.” Similarly, George Bernard Shaw wrote: "The only fundamental and possible socialism is the socialisation of the selective breeding of man." Bertrand Russell proposed that the state should promulgate colour-coded "procreation tickets" to prevent the gene pool of the elite being diluted by inferior human beings.

Nazism drew from the widespread proliferation of this racist 'fashion' in European and American elite circles but with a significantly more radical and militant drive. Hitler - himself driven by a private aversion to Christian ideals of compassion for the weak, equality and meekness (the opposite of his experiences of militarism in the First World war, the freikorps and his violent radicalism in the 1923 Beer Hall Putsch) - somehow had to make this ideology appeal to a predominantly Christian populace. Naturally, prejudice against Jews - wide currency in central European Christian countries - offered fertile breeding ground as an "opening", by which Christians could be led into an otherwise profoundly anti-Christian belief system that was meant to supersede their loyalty to the church with that of the Reich.

Such ideas had really only taken hold of the the elite intellectuals in Europe (Winston Churchill in England, don't forget, had supported involuntary euthanasia in 1904). Hitler wanted to make it a mass movement. And he did, tragically for the world.

The 'trajectory' of the regime and its intended subversion, first, and then ultimate destruction of "weak, feeble" Christianity (as Hitler saw it according to his irreligious, anti-clerical and scientistic worldview, as a consensus of historians concur) is pretty clear though. Hitler hated Christian ethics and his theorist Rosenberg held St. Paul responsible "for the destruction of the racial values from Greek and Roman culture" courtesy of Galatians 3:28 ("There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus").
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
I think there's a fairly straight line from acceptance of Christ to supercessionalism, from supercessionalism to anti-Semitism, and from anti-Semitism to Nazi ideology.

The difficulty I see in the narrative chain that you present above, is the intellectual leap from the theological construct of "supercessionalism" and its cognate, a type of anti-Judaism or religious bigotry, to the explicitly racial-ethnic prejudice of anti-Semitism. They are two different things - both prejudices, both immoral, but with distinct epistemological bases.

Consider this statement by the Vatican's Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office on March 25, 1928:


"The Catholic Church habitually prays for the Jewish people who were the bearers of the Divine revelation up to the time of Christ; this, despite, indeed, on account of their spiritual blindness.

Actuated by this love, the Apostolic See has protected this people against unjust oppression and, just as every kind of envy and jealousy among the nations must be disapproved of, so in an especial manner must be that hatred which is generally termed anti-Semitism
" (Acta Ap. Sedis, 20, 1928).​


Do you notice how it seamlessly combines criticism of Jews religiously, for failing to recognize Christ, alongside clear denunciation of racial anti-Semitism and persecution of them? That was the traditional, pre-Vatican II approach of the Catholic Church.

Martin Luther's writings occupy a "grey area" between the two, since he went far beyond anything in the Patristics, Catholic medeival thought or his fellow Reformers in adopting language that appears to have been more than mere theological bigotry - characterising Jews as a "a base, whoring people, surely possessed by all devils", who should be drafted into forced labor, expelled for all time or even murdered i.e. "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them". The consensus among historians is that Luther's anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of later antisemitism in Germany.

I do not deny that his works influenced the Nazis, or rather were used by them as a conduit through which to convince German Protestants that their anti-semitism had roots in traditional Teutonic Christian religion. But his views are not representative of even the other Protestant Reformers. Indeed, they are actually very alarming, even in the context of the period in which he wrote. As one scholar states "Luther wrote of the Jews as if they were a race that could not truly convert to Christianity. Indeed...Luther, by making the Jews the devil's people, put them beyond conversion." He notes that in a sermon of September 25, 1539, "Luther tried to demonstrate through several examples that individual Jews could not convert permanently, and in several passages of The Jews and Their Lies, Luther appeared to reject the possibility that the Jews would or could convert."

If we compare this with medieval papal rhetoric, a very different image emerges. Here, a strictly theological agenda was put forward, one that both condemned the Jewish religious belief but simultaneously upheld their right to practice their religion and not to endure persecution, but to have their "rights" (note: recognition that Jews, like all people, had certain natural rights as people made in God's image) protected by canon law.

Consider Pope Alexander II's letter to Viscount Berengar, who saved Jews from a massacre in the early 11th century:


History of the Jews


"....Alexander II, the Roman Pope, persuaded the defenders of the church (during the crusade) not to deviate from their aim, and not to harass Jews on their march. In a letter, the Pope praised the conduct of the viscount Berengar thus: 'We think highly of your prudence and good judgement in saving from death the Jews who live under your dominion, because God does not like bloodshed"...In a special missive, the Pope had to remind his spiritual colleague that 'both the Christian and the temporal laws prohibit bloodshed, the shedding of human blood'..."​


I quote from the Jewish Virtual Library:


Pope Innocent III


Constitution for the Jews (1199 CE)

Although in many ways the disbelief of the Jews must be reproved... they must not be oppressed grievously by the faithful...

Just as, therefore there ought not to be license for the Jews to presume to go beyond what is permitted them by law in their synagogues, so in those which have been conceded to them, they ought to suffer no prejudice. These men, therefore, since they wish rather to go on in their own hardness than to know the revelations of the prophets and the mysteries of the Law, and to come to a knowledge of the Christian faith, still, since they beseech the help of Our defense, We, out of the meekness proper to Christian piety, and keeping in the footprints of Our predecessors of happy memory, the Roman Pontiffs Calixtus, Eugene, Alexander, Clement, and Celestine, admit their petition, and We grant them the buckler of Our protection.

For we make the law that no Christian compel them, unwilling or refusing, by violence to come to baptism. But if any one of them should spontaneously, and for the sake of faith, fly to the Christians, once his choice has become evident, let him be made a Christian without any calumny. Indeed, he is not considered to possess the true faith of the Christianity who is recognized to have come to Christian baptism, not spontaneously, but unwillingly.

Too, no Christian ought to presume, apart from the juridicial sentence of the territorial power, wickedly to injure their persons, or with violence to take away their property, or to change the good customs which they have had until now in whatever region they inhabit.

Besides, in the celebration of their own festivals, no one ought to disturb them in any way, with clubs or stones, nor ought any one try to require from them or to extort from them services they do not owe, except for those they have been accustomed from times past to perform.

In addition to these, We decree, blocking the wickedness and avarice of evil men, that no one ought to dare to mutilate or diminish a Jewish cemetery, nor, in order to get money, to exhume bodies once they have been buried.

If anyone, however shall attempt, the tenor of this decree once known, to go against it - may this be far from happening! - let him be punished by the vengeance of excommunication, unless he correct his presumption by making equivalent satisfaction.

We desire, however, that only those be fortified by the guard of this protection who shall have presumed no plotting for the subversion of the Christian faith.

Given at the Lateran, by the hand of Raynaldus, Archbishop of Acerenza, acting for the Chancellor, on the 17th day before the Kalends of October, in the second indiction, and the 1199th year of the Incarnation of the Lord, and in the second year of the pontificate of the Lord Pope, Innocent III.



Letter on the Jews (1199 CE)

We decree that no Christian shall use violence to compel the Jews to accept baptism. But if a Jew, of his own accord, because of a change in his faith, shall have taken refuge with Christians, after his wish has been made known, he may be made a Christian without any opposition. For anyone who has not of his own will sought Christian baptism cannot have the true Christian faith. No Christian shall do the Jews any personal injury, except in executing the judgments of a judge, or deprive them of their possessions, or change the rights and privileges which they have been accustomed to have. During the celebration of their festivals, no one shall disturb them by beating them with clubs or by throwing stones at them. No one shall compel them to render any services except those which they have been accustomed to render. And to prevent the baseness and avarice of wicked men we forbid anyone to deface or damage their cemeteries or to extort money from them by threatening to exhume the bodies of their dead....

From: Oliver J. Thatcher, and Edgar Holmes McNeal, eds., A Source Book for Medieval History, (New York: Scribners, 1905), 212-213.​



(continued...)
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
I would hope, that you can see the clear difference between the above - anti-Judaism, bigoted, but not anti-semitic - and Martin Luther's ethnic-tinged quasi-genocidal speech. The Pope wanted Jews to convert, by their own freewill. And after conversion, they'd be like every other Christian. This continued into modernity.

In 1916, in the midst of the First World War, American Jews petitioned Pope Benedict XV on behalf of the Polish Jews. To this the pontiff responded in a private letter, also published in the Jesuit journal "Civilta Cattolica", denouncing anti-semitism:


The Supreme Pontiff.... as Head of the Catholic Church, which, faithful to its divine doctrines and its most glorious traditions, considers all men as brothers and teaches them to love one another, he never ceases to indicate among individuals, as well as among peoples, the observance of the principles of the natural law, and to condemn everything that violates them. This law must be observed and respected in the case of the children of Israel, as well as of all others, because it would not be conformable to justice or to religion itself to derogate from it solely on account of divergence of religious confessions


In September 1938 Pope Pius XI stated to a group of Belgian pilgrims:


Anti-Semitism is a movement with which we Christians can have nothing to do. No, no I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible.


On 28 July, 1938, in the papal residence of Castel Gandolfo, addressing the students of the Roman College of Propaganda Fide, Pope Pius XI said:

"The human race is but one and the same universal race of men. There is no place for special races... Human dignity consists in constituting one and the same great family: the human race. This is the thought of the Church".​

The words of the Pontiff had been furiously rebuked by the German press, considered contrary to the culture of Nazi Germany, because the address explicitly denied the existence of "special races" or master races, a keystone of Nazism.

The 1939 issue of B'nai B'rith's National Jewish Monthly features him on the front cover and writes,


"Regardless of their personal beliefs, men and women everywhere who believe in democracy and the rights of man have hailed the firm and uncompromising stand of Pope Pius XI against Fascist brutality, paganism, and racial theories. In his annual Christmas message to the College of Cardinals, the great Pontiff vigorously denounced Fascism...The first international voice in the world to be raised in stern condemnation of the ghastly injustice perpetrated upon the Jewish people by brutal tyrannies was Pope Pius XI".​


Yet Pope Pius XI mixed these clear denunciations of racial prejudice against Jews with traditionally disparaging remarks about Judaism:


Humani generis unitas - Wikipedia


Humani generis unitas (Latin; English translation: On the Unity of the Human Race) was a draft for an encyclical planned by Pope Pius XI before his death on February 10, 1939. The draft text condemned antisemitism, racism and the persecution of Jews...

Although the draft clearly condemned racism and anti-Semitism, the document is deeply grounded in anti-Judaism
.[2] The draft criticizes the majority of post-Messianic Jews for not acknowledging Jesus Christ as the true Jewish Messiah.[8]

Racism

Humani generis unitas clearly condemns American racial segregation and racism and Nazi German anti-Semitism, though without explicitly naming these countries. Racism is a denial of the unity of human society,[9] a denial of the human personality,[10] and a denial of the true values of religion [11] There is no relation between race and religion,[12] because racism is destructive to any society.[13] Racism is destructive not only for social relations within a society but also for international relations and relations between different races.[14]

Anti-Judaic context

The draft condemns the persecution of Jews. “These persecutions have been censured by the Holy See on more than one occasion, but especially when they have worn the mantle of Christianity".[15] But the text hedges with an anti-Judaic theme


Luther was saying something quite different, and rather more chilling, than anti-Judaism. He seemed to deny that Jews could even be converted - which in Christian terms, is akin to denying one's very humanity. Note that when when the Spanish occupied the Americas and many of the colonialists thought it meet to regard these new lands outside the known world as being frequented by sub-humans, Pope Paul III in 1537, in the bull Sublimis Dei - encouraged and egged on by Catholic intellectuals at the School of Salamanca - described the colonialists "as allies of the devil" for denying that the Native Americans were free people with rights who could receive the Catholic Faith.

Pope Paul III wrote:

Sublimus Dei On the Enslavement and Evangelization of Indians


The enemy of the human race, who opposes all good deeds in order to bring men to destruction, beholding and envying this, invented a means never before heard of, by which he might hinder the preaching of God’s word of Salvation to the peopleto publish abroad that the Indians of the West and the South, and other people of whom We have recent knowledge should be treated as dumb brutes created for our service, pretending that they are incapable of receiving the Catholic Faith.

We, who, though unworthy, exercise on earth the power of our Lord and seek with all our might to bring those sheep of His flock who are outside into the fold committed to our charge, consider, however, that the Indians are truly men and that they are not only capable of understanding the Catholic Faith but, according to our information, they desire exceedingly to receive it.

As such, Luther's statements are deeply troubling because they infer dehumamization, which was never the case in earlier anti-Jewish statements as from the popes.

Nazi anti-semitism was similarly essentialist in nature, whereas traditional Christian hostility towards the Jewish faith was functional: Christians prayed that Jews would convert, as some did - "conversos" (often under compulsion by mobs). In other words, Nazi anti-semitism was hatred of Jews as a people and posited that they were 'innately' inferior. Anti-Judaism was bigotry purely towards their faith, although this did unfortunately peter out into pogroms and so forth among mobs looking for scapegoats in times of crisis, despite official censure from ecclesiastical authorities

Pseudo-scientific racialism - of which anti-semitism, or hatred of Jews as an ethnicity - has been opposed by the Vatican since it first emerged, because it undermines the doctrines of the incarnation and redemption. If Christ became human to save all humans from their sins, his grace can only be efficacious if there is an a priori common human nature equally shared by all, regardless of their ethnic origins, to "save". Christ cannot redeem dogs or butterflies, because he didn't incarnate as a dog or butterfly. Racism makes no sense in a Christian doctrinal context. Medieval Christians didn't look at the world in terms of race - they looked at it in terms of believers and unbelievers.

Catholic Christianity, in the middle ages, was (unfortunately) was anti-Judaic in many respects, in a purely religious sense of hoping, indeed praying for in the liturgy, the conversion of all Jews to Christianity by an act of God.

This derived from interpretation of the Pauline epistles by the earliest Church Fathers, who were also at pains - politically - in the aftermath of the Jewish-Roman War, to stress before the Roman authorities that they were not Jews but in fact rejected many facets of conventional Judaism, while having to justify why they embraced its scriptures as divinely ordained.

This has been dramatically changed since Vatican II and its positive appraisal of the Hebraic roots of the Christian Faith but the documentary evidence from the past speaks for itself, I don't think I need to quote what St. Thomas Aquinas had to say on the matter (you have surely read it).

In other words, official theology exhibited very real and undeniable bigotry towards Judaism as a belief system (as we would view it today, although it is perhaps anachronistic to apply modern ideals of impartiality to a uniformly religious age) but not anti-semitism as we know it today.
 
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ronki23

Well-Known Member
It has been 13 years since I studied Nazi Germany at School but the Catholic Church condemned many of Nazi Germany's policies. Maybe Hitler was a Protestant because Catholics were persecuted
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
I think there's a fairly straight line from acceptance of Christ to supercessionalism, from supercessionalism to anti-Semitism, and from anti-Semitism to Nazi ideology.
I think a clearer line can be drawn from ultra-nationalism, social darwinism, eugenics and Ariosophy. (The belief in Ayran supermen from Thule/Atlantis).

Certainly not all Christians do this, but there's no point of doctrine that all Christians agree on anyway. Just because you disagree with Nazi Christians doesn't mean that their beliefs don't fall under the umbrella of Christian thought.
As hard as it may be to accept, not everything is about religion. Nazism emerged because the conditions for extreme politics were ripe. Don't forget that the communists were a significant presence in Germany as well, so many people ended up siding with the Nazis out of fear of a communist takeover. A fear that was by no means entirely unjustified.

Further, I think you're overestimating the religiosity of the time period. Consider that the major competitor to fascism was calling for the abolition of religion wholesale.

Edit: Hitler didn't invent anti-Semitism. He tapped into a very long and very Christian tradition of anti-Semitism in Europe in general and in Germany in particular.
There's a difference though. Christian antisemitism wasn't motivated by a fanatical racialism. Jews often suffered terrible treatment under Christian hands (although how bad depended a lot on where and when you were) but the idea of a government implemented systemic extermination was only made possible by twentieth century ideas of eugenics and Ariosophy. Neither of which are Christian doctrines.

And yes, Luther was a raving lunatic.

I think you're wrong, but I think it doesn't really matter: whether Hitler was genuinely Christian himself or whether he was just feigning Christianity, there's no doubt that the vast majority of his followers were Christians and had no problem reconciling their Nazi ideology with their Christian faith.
What you think doesn't matter. The historical consensus is that Hitler was anti-Christian who intended to wipe Christianity out in the long term. As for reconciling Christian belief with Nazism, you don't. You compromise your Christian beliefs for Nazism. Human beings are very good at rationalization.

"Freethought" is just the term for the group. If you think this casts aspersions on you, I can only hope that you have the same attitude toward Christian churches whose names no less imply that you're wrong, whether it's "Orthodox" (i.e. "true belief"), "Church of Jesus Christ" (i.e. "the church chosen by Christ"), or "Full Gospel" (implying that other churches only use part of the Gospel).
That doesn't take away from my point at all. It is actually part of what pushed me away from atheism to begin with. The whole subculture is just another dogmatic ideology. When you start getting called a secret theist that's when you know you've committed heresy.

Atheism is not a creed. Freethought is. Skepticism is. Secularism is. The fact that I don't believe in any gods is informed by these positions, but atheism isn't a philosophy in and of itself.
No, but it certainly has implications on what kind of ideology you may find appealing. For example, do you agree with the view that religion ought to be done away with?

The only difference between the rhetoric of the secular humanist and the Marxist communist is degree. The communists were willing to embrace totalitarian means to that end, the secular humanists aren't. Although given the views expressed by some on these forums I sometimes wonder.

An "explicitly atheist" regime with state-sanctioned churches. o_O
Oh come on, it's not that hard to grasp.

China is officially atheist. They allow and recognise some religious practice under the supervision of the government as a concession, not because these religious organizations are embraced in the official ideology. Atheism is a requirement for membership in the communist party.
 
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Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
It has been 13 years since I studied Nazi Germany at School but the Catholic Church condemned many of Nazi Germany's policies. Maybe Hitler was a Protestant because Catholics were persecuted

Hitler did not practise any form of Christianity in his adult live. He regarded religions as myths.

You are correct, though, that the Catholic Church condemned many facets of Nazi ideology prior to the war.

On 13 November 1938, for instance, the first Sunday of the Ambrosian Advent in a homily in the Cathedral, Pope Pius XI made Cardinal Schuster deliver a condemnation of Fascist Italy's embrace of Nazi racial laws:


"A kind of heresy was born abroad and is spreading everywhere. It not only attacks the supernatural foundations of the Catholic Church, but materializes in human blood the spiritual concepts of the individual, of the Nation and of the Homeland, denying to humanity all spiritual value, and thus constitutes an international danger no less than that of Bolshevism itself. It is so-called racism".

Or as Pope Pius XI himself said in July 1938:


"Catholic means universal not racist, nationalist or separatist.... Unfortunately, there is something worse than some formula or other of racism or nationalism; in other words the spirit that motivates them" (L'Osservatore Romano, n. 176, 30 July 1938, p. 1).​
 
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What happened to Hilter and Nazi obsession with Norse Paganism? just sweep that under the door

There were some Nazis who wanted to revive/create a Germanic volkisch religion, although they were a minority. Hitler wasn't one of them though.

Himmler, who despised Christianity, was the most high profile Nazi with an interest in paganism and incorporated aspects of it in the SS.
 
When you start getting called a secret theist that's when you know you've committed heresy.

I can confirm that disagreeing with New Atheist Orthodoxy will, without fail, get you branded as a secret theist.

New Atheist logic tends to take the following form: "We are rational. All of us think the same thing. Therefore it is rational. Ergo anyone who disagrees with us must be irrational and have an agenda."
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Read what @Augustus said:

During the Mao era the communist state’s attitude toward many traditional practices was hostile, and ancestor worship was harshly suppressed throughout society (Davis-Friedmann 1991; Davis 1993; Parish and Whyte 1978; Whyte 1988; Whyte
and Parish 1984). Still under the ancestors’ shadow? Ancestor worship and family formation in contemporary China - A Hu & F Tian

Also not sure how ancestor worship could THRIVE during the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution given that spirits were said to reside in specific pieces of land, or objects. The collectivisation of farmland disconnected people from their family lands and the destruction of old objects and pre-communist cultural artefacts destroyed the 'homes' of the spirits.

Because the Great Leaders practiced Ancestor Worship? that's why.

Pardon me, if I don't believe some christian apologizer...
 
I can confirm that disagreeing with New Atheist Orthodoxy will, without fail, get you branded as a secret theist.

Pardon me, if I don't believe some christian apologizer...

We have a winner :trophy:

Ironically, given it is usually by someone who considers themselves highly rational, the surest way to be branded as a theist is quoting peer-reviewed scholarship which needs to be dismissed out of hand to avoid cognitive dissonance. That's twice this week already.

:D
 
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ronki23

Well-Known Member
@Bob the Unbeliever @9-10ths_Penguin @PruePhillip @LuisDantas @Kelly of the Phoenix

During the Mao era the communist state’s attitude toward many traditional practices was hostile, and ancestor worship was harshly suppressed throughout society (Davis-Friedmann 1991; Davis 1993; Parish and Whyte 1978; Whyte 1988; Whyte
and Parish 1984). Still under the ancestors’ shadow? Ancestor worship and family formation in contemporary China - A Hu & F Tian

Because the Great Leaders practiced Ancestor Worship? that's why.

Pardon me, if I don't believe some christian apologizer...

Except the source said ancestor worship was suppressed in China. We can safely assume the same for Cambodia because Mao and Pol Pot were best friends; just like Mao was with Kim il Sung.

Also multiple posters in this thread have said Hitler wanted to do away with the Catholic Church in Germany. Maybe he was Protestant but he definitely wasn't Catholic
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
@Bob the Unbeliever @9-10ths_Penguin @PruePhillip @LuisDantas @Kelly of the Phoenix

During the Mao era the communist state’s attitude toward many traditional practices was hostile, and ancestor worship was harshly suppressed throughout society (Davis-Friedmann 1991; Davis 1993; Parish and Whyte 1978; Whyte 1988; Whyte
and Parish 1984). Still under the ancestors’ shadow? Ancestor worship and family formation in contemporary China - A Hu & F Tian



Except the source said ancestor worship was suppressed in China. We can safely assume the same for Cambodia because Mao and Pol Pot were best friends; just like Mao was with Kim il Sung.

I don't particularly doubt what you say, although I don't think I can confirm that either.

But why are you mentioning this? I just don't see the relevance.


Also multiple posters in this thread have said Hitler wanted to do away with the Catholic Church in Germany. Maybe he was Protestant but he definitely wasn't Catholic

I don't think I can trust that conclusion, personally. Hitler was a person of troubled, conflicting passions, and it is well documented that he studied to be a priest. That is in fact how he learned of the swastika.
 

ronki23

Well-Known Member
I don't particularly doubt what you say, although I don't think I can confirm that either.

But why are you mentioning this? I just don't see the relevance.




I don't think I can trust that conclusion, personally. Hitler was a person of troubled, conflicting passions, and it is well documented that he studied to be a priest. That is in fact how he learned of the swastika.

Stalin studied to be a Priest
 
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