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Do liberals and atheists honestly think Hitler represents Christianity?

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Discussions on Hitler are always so positive. Everyone just wants to hand the hot potato to someone else. It was the atheists! No, it was the Catholics! Pagans! Protestants! Scientists! It's quite easy to go blaming since there are always a bunch of sources both real and manufactured supporting each of these. It just depends on how far one is willing to go to ignore the fact that it wasn't actually all that simple.
Ah, irony: oversimplifying other people's positions in order to complain that they're oversimplifying things.

I don't think anyone here is trying to blame Hitler and the rise of the Nazis on just one thing.

Personally, I'm arguing that genuinely Christian beliefs informed a significant part of the ideology of Hitler and the Nazis. Not all, but a significant amount. I see the other side as arguing (depending on the person):

- the anti-Semitic influences on Hitler weren't genuinely Christian; they were just mostly from people who only happened to be Christian and their anti-Semitism was coincidental.

- Hitler was antagonistic to various Christian churches and groups, therefore his position must be in opposition to genuine Christianity.

- Hitler was a Pagan/atheist/whatever, therefore nothing he believed counts as "Christian."

Nobody's arguing that every bit of Nazi ideology came from Christianity. Of course there were other major influences on his viewpoint... like WWI, for instance: without the German defeat in WWI, he never would have gone looking fot someone to blame for the defeat.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
I don't think anyone here is trying to blame Hitler and the rise of the Nazis on just one thing.
I think many do, not necessarily in this discussion but in general.

Personally, I'm arguing that genuinely Christian beliefs informed a significant part of the ideology of Hitler and the Nazis. Not all, but a significant amount. I see the other side as arguing (depending on the person):
You see an other side? Well I'm not on that side. As for what you write in the quote above, they did and I'm not arguing against that. Just that Christianity has been a moving target, especially near where the ideas that inspired Nazis sprung. Like in my country the influence of the Nazis didn't work on Lutherans and our Jews fought in our army defending against the Soviet though we were for a time allied with Nazis.

- the anti-Semitic influences on Hitler weren't genuinely Christian; they were just mostly from people who only happened to be Christian and their anti-Semitism was coincidental.
There were certainly "Christian" influences to him.

- Hitler was antagonistic to various Christian churches and groups, therefore his position must be in opposition to genuine Christianity.
He was opposed to the majority of churches in general, but so are many Christians. So that argument is weak. There was a movement, a so-called Postive Christianity that was promoted by NSDAP to replace the traditional churches.

There is a decent overview on that in the article at Positive Christianity - Wikipedia

- Hitler was a Pagan/atheist/whatever, therefore nothing he believed counts as "Christian."
Yes that's a pretty weak argument. He most definitely was not an atheist, inspired by pagan myths and poetic "philosophical" interpretations of evolution certainly, many of them counter to what most people see as Christianity and actually counter to what Darwin's work was about. But which Christian is truly without outside inspirations? It doesn't disqualify anyone as Christian.

Nobody's arguing that every bit of Nazi ideology came from Christianity. Of course there were other major influences on his viewpoint... like WWI, for instance: without the German defeat in WWI, he never would have gone looking fot someone to blame for the defeat.
I certainly didn't think you were arguing for such.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Yeah. I'm one. I think we can discuss theological topics without having to resort to silly narrative handwaving (magic).

I actually know of several folk, who style themselves as "christian atheists" or "atheistic christians".

They, like Jefferson, ignore the magical bits, and concentrate instead on the Humanitarian Messages within the scope of Christianity.

I can empathize with that, very very much--- there is, in fact, a great deal of Positivism within the NT narrative, even if you take out the water-walking, the zombie-making, the magical chemistry and weather-witching.

In fact, some of the oldest NT texts, actually end the narrative when Jesus is taken down from the cross. It ends right there. "He's Dead, Jim. Let Us Celebrate His Message in his Honor, by spreading it far and wide".

And they leave out the "saved" parts, and the "ghost in the machine" bits too. (in fact, it's kinda creepy, in a Horror Film sort of way, to think of being possessed by the ghost of jesus.... )
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
... and both Hitler and Stalin had heavy formal doses of establishment Christianity. What that has to do with facial hair is unclear.

The idea.............. that Stalin and Hitler were Christians because of their upbringings..... :facepalm:
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Do liberals and atheists honestly think Hitler represents Christianity?
I'm trying to get through the Mao and Pol Pot thread but the notion that Hitler represents over 2 billion people is stupid.

Question:- Do you think that there is a strong connection between Liberals and Atheism where you live?

I only ask because where I live the vast majority of folks are either Agnostic or Indifferent to God/s or Religion/s.
 

ronki23

Well-Known Member
No. that is absolutely false. Nobody kills in the "name" of "gods not existing".

They killed because they were despots. They killed to get and keep power-- just like all religious leaders before them did.

You seem to think atheism is a creed or motto or religion or some other insane StrawMan.


Says you. But YOU don't get to decide that, do you? nope. Hitler certainly believed he was a 'proper christian'.

He likely would have had a very low opinion of ... you (and me, for that matter).


Null phrase: "conventional christian" is without meaning. Seeing as how there are 40,000 different flavors of "christian".

Each separate and distinct from the others-- self-identified so.

So your complaint here? Is devoid of logic.

Moreover? There are quite a largish fraction of 'Christians' in the USA, who do think highly of Hitler and what he stood for....

Firstly, Mao and Pol Pot were good friends because Mao didn't care when Pol Pot wiped out the Chinese living in Cambodia. Kim il Sung was also part of this.

Secondly, the article stated ancestor worship was suppressed in both countries. The only reason the Chinese monuments we see today survived the Cultural Revolution was because of Zhou Enlai. As for Cambodia, supporting them was the biggest mistake the West made- it's a wonder Angkor Watt survived

Thirdly, plenty of quotes by Hitler prove he certainly wasn't a Catholic. Maybe he was Protestant at best but he was critical of Christianity
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
The idea.............. that Stalin and Hitler were Christians because of their upbringings..... :facepalm:

Well, that does prove one thing: Being raised as a Good Christian is no guarantee that you will turn out to be a good person.

Kinda makes me ask if there is anything christianity promises, that is valid?
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Firstly, Mao and Pol Pot were good friends because Mao didn't care when Pol Pot wiped out the Chinese living in Cambodia. Kim il Sung was also part of this..

So you say. You are not helping your case, actually.
Secondly, the article stated ancestor worship was suppressed in both countries. .

So? I found a different article that contradicts yours. Hmmmm...

The only reason the Chinese monuments we see today survived the Cultural Revolution was because of Zhou Enlai. As for Cambodia, supporting them was the biggest mistake the West made- it's a wonder Angkor Watt survived.

Citation Needed.
Thirdly, plenty of quotes by Hitler prove he certainly wasn't a Catholic. Maybe he was Protestant at best but he was critical of Christianity

Citation Needed. You obviously never read any of his actual diaries...
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Well, that does prove one thing: Being raised as a Good Christian is no guarantee that you will turn out to be a good person.

Kinda makes me ask if there is anything christianity promises, that is valid?
Christian promises valid?
Hell,, Bob, you would need to ask a Christian about all that.

But folks who think that Hitler was a real Christian are a bit wonky, Imo. :D
 

ronki23

Well-Known Member
@Bob the Unbeliever look at these quotes from the Nazis regarding Christianity.

The majority of historians concur with Kershaw and Richard Overy; The Dictators: Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia; Allen Lane/Penguin; 2004, pp. 287, to the effect that: "During the War [Hitler] reflected that in the long run, ‘National Socialism and religion will no longer be able to exist together'. Hitler wanted a neutered religion, subservient to the state, while the slow programme of scientific revelation destroyed the foundation of religious myth." In terms of Christianity in particular, he could not have been more privately disgusted by it. Joseph Goebbels (Fred Taylor Translation); The Goebbels Diaries 1939–41; Hamish Hamilton Ltd; London; 1982; ISBN 0-241-10893-4 : In his entry for 29 April 1941, Goebbels noted long discussions about the Vatican and Christianity, and wrote: "The Fuhrer is a fierce opponent of all that humbug".

This doesn't mean that German Christian culture didn't influence the development of Nazi ideology, although it certainly wasn't the prevalent influence (I reckon it did in point 24 of the original NSDAP programme but alongside such disparate sources as the Völkisch movement, classical Greek philosophy and the Roman Empire, Nietzsche, Social Darwinism, biological racism, romantic nationalism, the freikorps right-wing paramilitaries fighting the Weimar Republic, Thule society etc. etc.). The Nazis were infamously eclectic in their inspirations and so it cannot be said that any particular group "owns" them - not Christians, not atheists, not pagans. It was a uniquely awful system unto itself. If they belong to anyone, they belong to Europe and the West as a whole - a reminder of one particularly dark route our civilization could have taken, based upon evil within our very culture.

National Socialism was a melange, a great cauldron of themes lifted from contradictory sources, hoovering up much of the worst parts of Western intellectual history from Plato's advocacy of proto-racial hygene and killing of invalids, attributed to Socrates, in The Republic, to Ancient Sparta's policy of eugenic state murder of deformed babies, militarism and forced enslavement of helots to Nietzsche's Overman and yes Martin Luther's anti-Jewish writings too.

And yes, they had to appeal to a mass audience in a predominantly Protestant society, but under the guiding logic of a belief in a great 'law of nature' that mandated racial struggle between biological superiors and inferiors for 'living space' (lebensraum). This guiding principle was certainly not Christian in origin - indeed the churches had, since the late 19th century, been one of the sole institutions consistently condemning the rise of involuntary euthanasia, eugenics and biological racism, which became popular amongst a range of liberal European thinkers, including HG Wells and British Prime Minister Asquith, by 1914. It was socially darwinian (pseudo-scientistic), as all competent experts in the field recognise.

In 1910, Churchill wrote to the then-British Prime Minister, Asquith, expressing his support for legislation that proposed to introduce a compulsory sterilisation program in the UK, saying: “The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the feeble-minded and insane classes, coupled as it is with a steady restriction among the thrifty , energetic and superior stocks, constitutes a national and race danger which it is impossible to exaggerate … I feel that the source from which the stream of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed up before another year has passed.” Similarly, George Bernard Shaw wrote: "The only fundamental and possible socialism is the socialisation of the selective breeding of man." Bertrand Russell proposed that the state should promulgate colour-coded "procreation tickets" to prevent the gene pool of the elite being diluted by inferior human beings.

Nazism drew from the widespread proliferation of this racist 'fashion' in European and American elite circles but with a significantly more radical and militant drive. Hitler - himself driven by a private aversion to Christian ideals of compassion for the weak, equality and meekness (the opposite of his experiences of militarism in the First World war, the freikorps and his violent radicalism in the 1923 Beer Hall Putsch) - somehow had to make this ideology appeal to a predominantly Christian populace. Naturally, prejudice against Jews - wide currency in central European Christian countries - offered fertile breeding ground as an "opening", by which Christians could be led into an otherwise profoundly anti-Christian belief system that was meant to supersede their loyalty to the church with that of the Reich.

Such ideas had really only taken hold of the the elite intellectuals in Europe (Winston Churchill in England, don't forget, had supported involuntary euthanasia in 1904). Hitler wanted to make it a mass movement. And he did, tragically for the world.

The 'trajectory' of the regime and its intended subversion, first, and then ultimate destruction of "weak, feeble" Christianity (as Hitler saw it according to his irreligious, anti-clerical and scientistic worldview, as a consensus of historians concur) is pretty clear though. Hitler hated Christian ethics and his theorist Rosenberg held St. Paul responsible "for the destruction of the racial values from Greek and Roman culture" courtesy of Galatians 3:28 ("There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus").
 

ronki23

Well-Known Member
@Bob the Unbeliever

The difficulty I see in the narrative chain that you present above, is the intellectual leap from the theological construct of "supercessionalism" and its cognate, a type of anti-Judaism or religious bigotry, to the explicitly racial-ethnic prejudice of anti-Semitism. They are two different things - both prejudices, both immoral, but with distinct epistemological bases.

Consider this statement by the Vatican's Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office on March 25, 1928:


"The Catholic Church habitually prays for the Jewish people who were the bearers of the Divine revelation up to the time of Christ; this, despite, indeed, on account of their spiritual blindness.

Actuated by this love, the Apostolic See has protected this people against unjust oppression and, just as every kind of envy and jealousy among the nations must be disapproved of, so in an especial manner must be that hatred which is generally termed anti-Semitism
" (Acta Ap. Sedis, 20, 1928).​


Do you notice how it seamlessly combines criticism of Jews religiously, for failing to recognize Christ, alongside clear denunciation of racial anti-Semitism and persecution of them? That was the traditional, pre-Vatican II approach of the Catholic Church.

Martin Luther's writings occupy a "grey area" between the two, since he went far beyond anything in the Patristics, Catholic medeival thought or his fellow Reformers in adopting language that appears to have been more than mere theological bigotry - characterising Jews as a "a base, whoring people, surely possessed by all devils", who should be drafted into forced labor, expelled for all time or even murdered i.e. "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them". The consensus among historians is that Luther's anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of later antisemitism in Germany.

I do not deny that his works influenced the Nazis, or rather were used by them as a conduit through which to convince German Protestants that their anti-semitism had roots in traditional Teutonic Christian religion. But his views are not representative of even the other Protestant Reformers. Indeed, they are actually very alarming, even in the context of the period in which he wrote. As one scholar states "Luther wrote of the Jews as if they were a race that could not truly convert to Christianity. Indeed...Luther, by making the Jews the devil's people, put them beyond conversion." He notes that in a sermon of September 25, 1539, "Luther tried to demonstrate through several examples that individual Jews could not convert permanently, and in several passages of The Jews and Their Lies, Luther appeared to reject the possibility that the Jews would or could convert."

If we compare this with medieval papal rhetoric, a very different image emerges. Here, a strictly theological agenda was put forward, one that both condemned the Jewish religious belief but simultaneously upheld their right to practice their religion and not to endure persecution, but to have their "rights" (note: recognition that Jews, like all people, had certain natural rights as people made in God's image) protected by canon law.

Consider Pope Alexander II's letter to Viscount Berengar, who saved Jews from a massacre in the early 11th century:


History of the Jews


"....Alexander II, the Roman Pope, persuaded the defenders of the church (during the crusade) not to deviate from their aim, and not to harass Jews on their march. In a letter, the Pope praised the conduct of the viscount Berengar thus: 'We think highly of your prudence and good judgement in saving from death the Jews who live under your dominion, because God does not like bloodshed"...In a special missive, the Pope had to remind his spiritual colleague that 'both the Christian and the temporal laws prohibit bloodshed, the shedding of human blood'..."​


I quote from the Jewish Virtual Library:


Pope Innocent III


Constitution for the Jews (1199 CE)

Although in many ways the disbelief of the Jews must be reproved... they must not be oppressed grievously by the faithful...

Just as, therefore there ought not to be license for the Jews to presume to go beyond what is permitted them by law in their synagogues, so in those which have been conceded to them, they ought to suffer no prejudice. These men, therefore, since they wish rather to go on in their own hardness than to know the revelations of the prophets and the mysteries of the Law, and to come to a knowledge of the Christian faith, still, since they beseech the help of Our defense, We, out of the meekness proper to Christian piety, and keeping in the footprints of Our predecessors of happy memory, the Roman Pontiffs Calixtus, Eugene, Alexander, Clement, and Celestine, admit their petition, and We grant them the buckler of Our protection.

For we make the law that no Christian compel them, unwilling or refusing, by violence to come to baptism. But if any one of them should spontaneously, and for the sake of faith, fly to the Christians, once his choice has become evident, let him be made a Christian without any calumny. Indeed, he is not considered to possess the true faith of the Christianity who is recognized to have come to Christian baptism, not spontaneously, but unwillingly.

Too, no Christian ought to presume, apart from the juridicial sentence of the territorial power, wickedly to injure their persons, or with violence to take away their property, or to change the good customs which they have had until now in whatever region they inhabit.

Besides, in the celebration of their own festivals, no one ought to disturb them in any way, with clubs or stones, nor ought any one try to require from them or to extort from them services they do not owe, except for those they have been accustomed from times past to perform.

In addition to these, We decree, blocking the wickedness and avarice of evil men, that no one ought to dare to mutilate or diminish a Jewish cemetery, nor, in order to get money, to exhume bodies once they have been buried.

If anyone, however shall attempt, the tenor of this decree once known, to go against it - may this be far from happening! - let him be punished by the vengeance of excommunication, unless he correct his presumption by making equivalent satisfaction.

We desire, however, that only those be fortified by the guard of this protection who shall have presumed no plotting for the subversion of the Christian faith.

Given at the Lateran, by the hand of Raynaldus, Archbishop of Acerenza, acting for the Chancellor, on the 17th day before the Kalends of October, in the second indiction, and the 1199th year of the Incarnation of the Lord, and in the second year of the pontificate of the Lord Pope, Innocent III.



Letter on the Jews (1199 CE)

We decree that no Christian shall use violence to compel the Jews to accept baptism. But if a Jew, of his own accord, because of a change in his faith, shall have taken refuge with Christians, after his wish has been made known, he may be made a Christian without any opposition. For anyone who has not of his own will sought Christian baptism cannot have the true Christian faith. No Christian shall do the Jews any personal injury, except in executing the judgments of a judge, or deprive them of their possessions, or change the rights and privileges which they have been accustomed to have. During the celebration of their festivals, no one shall disturb them by beating them with clubs or by throwing stones at them. No one shall compel them to render any services except those which they have been accustomed to render. And to prevent the baseness and avarice of wicked men we forbid anyone to deface or damage their cemeteries or to extort money from them by threatening to exhume the bodies of their dead....

From: Oliver J. Thatcher, and Edgar Holmes McNeal, eds., A Source Book for Medieval History, (New York: Scribners, 1905), 212-213.​



(continued...)
 

ronki23

Well-Known Member
@Bob the Unbeliever

I would hope, that you can see the clear difference between the above - anti-Judaism, bigoted, but not anti-semitic - and Martin Luther's ethnic-tinged quasi-genocidal speech. The Pope wanted Jews to convert, by their own freewill. And after conversion, they'd be like every other Christian. This continued into modernity.

In 1916, in the midst of the First World War, American Jews petitioned Pope Benedict XV on behalf of the Polish Jews. To this the pontiff responded in a private letter, also published in the Jesuit journal "Civilta Cattolica", denouncing anti-semitism:


The Supreme Pontiff.... as Head of the Catholic Church, which, faithful to its divine doctrines and its most glorious traditions, considers all men as brothers and teaches them to love one another, he never ceases to indicate among individuals, as well as among peoples, the observance of the principles of the natural law, and to condemn everything that violates them. This law must be observed and respected in the case of the children of Israel, as well as of all others, because it would not be conformable to justice or to religion itself to derogate from it solely on account of divergence of religious confessions


In September 1938 Pope Pius XI stated to a group of Belgian pilgrims:


Anti-Semitism is a movement with which we Christians can have nothing to do. No, no I say to you it is impossible for a Christian to take part in anti-Semitism. It is inadmissible.


On 28 July, 1938, in the papal residence of Castel Gandolfo, addressing the students of the Roman College of Propaganda Fide, Pope Pius XI said:

"The human race is but one and the same universal race of men. There is no place for special races... Human dignity consists in constituting one and the same great family: the human race. This is the thought of the Church".​

The words of the Pontiff had been furiously rebuked by the German press, considered contrary to the culture of Nazi Germany, because the address explicitly denied the existence of "special races" or master races, a keystone of Nazism.

The 1939 issue of B'nai B'rith's National Jewish Monthly features him on the front cover and writes,


"Regardless of their personal beliefs, men and women everywhere who believe in democracy and the rights of man have hailed the firm and uncompromising stand of Pope Pius XI against Fascist brutality, paganism, and racial theories. In his annual Christmas message to the College of Cardinals, the great Pontiff vigorously denounced Fascism...The first international voice in the world to be raised in stern condemnation of the ghastly injustice perpetrated upon the Jewish people by brutal tyrannies was Pope Pius XI".​


Yet Pope Pius XI mixed these clear denunciations of racial prejudice against Jews with traditionally disparaging remarks about Judaism:


Humani generis unitas - Wikipedia


Humani generis unitas (Latin; English translation: On the Unity of the Human Race) was a draft for an encyclical planned by Pope Pius XI before his death on February 10, 1939. The draft text condemned antisemitism, racism and the persecution of Jews...

Although the draft clearly condemned racism and anti-Semitism, the document is deeply grounded in anti-Judaism
.[2] The draft criticizes the majority of post-Messianic Jews for not acknowledging Jesus Christ as the true Jewish Messiah.[8]

Racism

Humani generis unitas clearly condemns American racial segregation and racism and Nazi German anti-Semitism, though without explicitly naming these countries. Racism is a denial of the unity of human society,[9] a denial of the human personality,[10] and a denial of the true values of religion [11] There is no relation between race and religion,[12] because racism is destructive to any society.[13] Racism is destructive not only for social relations within a society but also for international relations and relations between different races.[14]

Anti-Judaic context

The draft condemns the persecution of Jews. “These persecutions have been censured by the Holy See on more than one occasion, but especially when they have worn the mantle of Christianity".[15] But the text hedges with an anti-Judaic theme


Luther was saying something quite different, and rather more chilling, than anti-Judaism. He seemed to deny that Jews could even be converted - which in Christian terms, is akin to denying one's very humanity. Note that when when the Spanish occupied the Americas and many of the colonialists thought it meet to regard these new lands outside the known world as being frequented by sub-humans, Pope Paul III in 1537, in the bull Sublimis Dei - encouraged and egged on by Catholic intellectuals at the School of Salamanca - described the colonialists "as allies of the devil" for denying that the Native Americans were free people with rights who could receive the Catholic Faith.

Pope Paul III wrote:

Sublimus Dei On the Enslavement and Evangelization of Indians


The enemy of the human race, who opposes all good deeds in order to bring men to destruction, beholding and envying this, invented a means never before heard of, by which he might hinder the preaching of God’s word of Salvation to the peopleto publish abroad that the Indians of the West and the South, and other people of whom We have recent knowledge should be treated as dumb brutes created for our service, pretending that they are incapable of receiving the Catholic Faith.

We, who, though unworthy, exercise on earth the power of our Lord and seek with all our might to bring those sheep of His flock who are outside into the fold committed to our charge, consider, however, that the Indians are truly men and that they are not only capable of understanding the Catholic Faith but, according to our information, they desire exceedingly to receive it.

As such, Luther's statements are deeply troubling because they infer dehumamization, which was never the case in earlier anti-Jewish statements as from the popes.

Nazi anti-semitism was similarly essentialist in nature, whereas traditional Christian hostility towards the Jewish faith was functional: Christians prayed that Jews would convert, as some did - "conversos" (often under compulsion by mobs). In other words, Nazi anti-semitism was hatred of Jews as a people and posited that they were 'innately' inferior. Anti-Judaism was bigotry purely towards their faith, although this did unfortunately peter out into pogroms and so forth among mobs looking for scapegoats in times of crisis, despite official censure from ecclesiastical authorities

Pseudo-scientific racialism - of which anti-semitism, or hatred of Jews as an ethnicity - has been opposed by the Vatican since it first emerged, because it undermines the doctrines of the incarnation and redemption. If Christ became human to save all humans from their sins, his grace can only be efficacious if there is an a priori common human nature equally shared by all, regardless of their ethnic origins, to "save". Christ cannot redeem dogs or butterflies, because he didn't incarnate as a dog or butterfly. Racism makes no sense in a Christian doctrinal context. Medieval Christians didn't look at the world in terms of race - they looked at it in terms of believers and unbelievers.

Catholic Christianity, in the middle ages, was (unfortunately) was anti-Judaic in many respects, in a purely religious sense of hoping, indeed praying for in the liturgy, the conversion of all Jews to Christianity by an act of God.

This derived from interpretation of the Pauline epistles by the earliest Church Fathers, who were also at pains - politically - in the aftermath of the Jewish-Roman War, to stress before the Roman authorities that they were not Jews but in fact rejected many facets of conventional Judaism, while having to justify why they embraced its scriptures as divinely ordained.

This has been dramatically changed since Vatican II and its positive appraisal of the Hebraic roots of the Christian Faith but the documentary evidence from the past speaks for itself, I don't think I need to quote what St. Thomas Aquinas had to say on the matter (you have surely read it).

In other words, official theology exhibited very real and undeniable bigotry towards Judaism as a belief system (as we would view it today, although it is perhaps anachronistic to apply modern ideals of impartiality to a uniformly religious age) but not anti-semitism as we know it today.

Hitler did not practise any form of Christianity in his adult live. He regarded religions as myths.

You are correct, though, that the Catholic Church condemned many facets of Nazi ideology prior to the war.

On 13 November 1938, for instance, the first Sunday of the Ambrosian Advent in a homily in the Cathedral, Pope Pius XI made Cardinal Schuster deliver a condemnation of Fascist Italy's embrace of Nazi racial laws:


"A kind of heresy was born abroad and is spreading everywhere. It not only attacks the supernatural foundations of the Catholic Church, but materializes in human blood the spiritual concepts of the individual, of the Nation and of the Homeland, denying to humanity all spiritual value, and thus constitutes an international danger no less than that of Bolshevism itself. It is so-called racism".

Or as Pope Pius XI himself said in July 1938:


"Catholic means universal not racist, nationalist or separatist.... Unfortunately, there is something worse than some formula or other of racism or nationalism; in other words the spirit that motivates them" (L'Osservatore Romano, n. 176, 30 July 1938, p. 1).​
 

ronki23

Well-Known Member
@Bob the Unbeliever

In Hitler's eyes, Christianity was a religion fit only for slaves; he detested its ethics in particular. Its teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle and the survival of the fittest.

— Extract from Hitler: a Study in Tyranny, by Alan Bullock

There is a consensus among historians who specialise in the study of Nazism - i.e. Ian Kershaw, Richard Overy, Alan Bullock, and Joachim Fest among many others - that Hitler was aggressively anti-Christian, and this judgement is confirmed in Hitler’s Table Talk, Goebbels Diaries, and the memoirs of Albert Speer. Goebbels summed it up when he stated that Hitler “hates Christianity, because it has crippled all that is noble in humanity.” (‘The Goebbels Diaries.’) Shirer also adds that “under the leadership of Rosenberg, Bormann and Himmler—backed by Hitler—the Nazi regime intended to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it could". (Shirer, w. Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany. p. 240.) Hitler's private secretary from 1941, Martin Bormann even said publicly in 1941 that "National Socialism and Christianity are irreconcilable" (William L. Shirer; The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich; Secker & Warburg; London; 1960; p. 240).

You can't really argue with that, since these were the men at the top of the regime who dealt with Hitler on a daily basis and tried to implement his vision.

He was neither a Christian, atheist or pagan in his personal beliefs - but he led a movement that included Christians, atheists and neo-pagans.

While Hitler was sent to a monastic boarding-school by his Catholic mother - after the death of his abusive, anti-clerical father - and at one point dreamed about having the authority of a priest (i.e. he admired the respect they received from their parishioners and the impressive symbols), he never actually studied to be a priest. I'm not sure where you read this because its untrue. He was never a seminarian and actually mocked priests as "walking abortions in cassocks".

It is on record that he would sit bored out of his skull during mass and never returned to another one again, after moving school.

He waited until his mother's death, though, to "come-out" so to speak, as the intemperate anti-clericalist that he was. He loved his mother (the only human we know about that he seemed to really care for) and didn't want to offend her with his hatred for her religion while she yet breathed.

But his own views on Christianity, and Catholicism in particular, are crystal clear from his private discussions with other Nazi elites i.e. from his Table Talk monologues in their original German (transcribed principally by his secretary Martin Bormann from 1941-1944):

  • "The law of selection justifies this incessant struggle, by allowing the survival of the fittest. Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure."

  • Night of 10 October 1941; p. 51.
"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that's left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic.

When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the [p. 60] stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity...

It's Christianity that's the liar. It's in perpetual conflict with itself...On the road to Damascus, St. Paul discovered that he could succeed in ruining the Roman State by causing the principle to triumph of the equality of all men before a single God—and by putting beyond the reach of the laws his private notions, which he alleged to be divinely inspired.

It's striking to observe that Christian ideas, despite all St. Paul's efforts, had no success in Athens. The philosophy of the Greeks was so much superior to this poverty-stricken rubbish that the Athenians burst out laughing when they listened to the apostle's teaching. But in Rome St. Paul found the ground prepared for him. His egalitarian theories had what was needed to win over a mass composed of innumerable uprooted people."


Midday 21 October 1941; pp. 76-77. Entry made by Martin Bormann personally

@SomeRandom yes, indeed. The KKK are a Christian Nativist-racist movement and some Nazis were Christian (i.e. Walter Buch), others were atheist (i.e. Joseph Goebbels), others were neo-pagan (i.e. Himmler).

But Hitler himself wasn't Christian and nor was the Nazi movement, in its essentials, a Christian phenomenon like the KKK.

Hitler's deputy Martin Bormann explained the general view held amongst the elite in the Party, in a memorandum circulated on 6th June 1941 (Nuremburg Tribunal document 075):


National Socialist and Christian concepts are irreconcilable. The Christian churches build upon man's ignorance and endeavour to keep the greatest number of people in a state of ignorance...[so] that the churches can maintain their power. National Socialism, on the other hand, rests on scientific foundations.

Christianity has certain unalterable principles, established nearly two thousand years ago, which have petrified into a system of dogma that is ever removed from reality...

When we National Socialists speak of belief in God, we do not mean, like the naive Christians and their spiritual exploiters, a man-like being sitting around somewhere in the universe. The force governed by natural law by which all these countless planets move in the universe, we call omnipotence or God.

The assertion that this universal force can trouble itself about the destiny of each individual being, every smallest earthly bacillus, can be influenced by so-called prayers or other surprising things, depends upon a requisite dose of naivety or else upon shameless professional self-interest

(Conway, John S. (1997). The Nazi Persecution of the Churches, 1933-1945. Vancouver: Regent College Publishing, p. 383. Full Letter Archived 14 May 2012 at the Wayback Machine.)

Some scholars have concluded that the movement, as a whole, was closest to some kind of 'pantheism' in which the laws of nature became 'omnipotence' or 'providence'.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
But you're more than willing to spread your own.

I draw conclusions from actual facts, and the personal diaries of the people involved.

Your "sources" are desperate to rewrite history, to try to absolve christianity from the many-many-many crimes it's dogma has inspired in people, throughout history.

In truth--if christianity was 1/10 as useful as it's promoters wish it was?

Simply bringing up someone like Hitler or Stalin under it's influences, would have made for better people-- the fact that christianity fails-- and often fails spectacularly?

Is pretty good evidence it's not nearly as useful as the label states it is.

Likely all the "good" is simply due to humans possessing a pretty strong empathy, and that most humans are mostly good people.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
I draw conclusions from actual facts, and the personal diaries of the people involved.
You have been doing no such thing. You've been ignoring any and all historical scholarship that isn't in line with your ideological presuppositions on the mere assertion that anything not in line with said presuppositions is propaganda. Par the course for outspoken atheists on the internet though.

Your "sources" are desperate to rewrite history, to try to absolve christianity from the many-many-many crimes it's dogma has inspired in people, throughout history.
What you call 'history' is little more than an ideologically driven narrative. But even if I were (for argument's sake) to grant all the supposed historical evils of Christianity, I still would not be convinced that a non-Christian history would have been any better. If you think pagan societies were progressive, humanist utopias then I don't know what to say to you.

In truth--if christianity was 1/10 as useful as it's promoters wish it was?
The west as we know it wouldn't exist. After the Western Empire collapsed the Catholic Church became the sole institution capable of transmitting and preserving what was good of classical culture. Rampaging Germanic tribesmen don't have much time for anything as silly as literacy. And as such for centuries the only people who could read and write were the clergy, who in turn taught and retaught Europe. It was Christianity that brought writing to the Slavic, Germanic and Celtic peoples. It was Christianity that introduced the conceptual framework that would allow for things such as universities and hospitals. Heck, the Knight Templar inadvertently invented banking.

If your complaint is that medieval Christendom did not resemble twentieth/twenty-first century liberal democracy well fine, but neither did any pagan societies. (The likes of Japan and India were taught it by the west).

Simply bringing up someone like Hitler or Stalin under it's influences, would have made for better people-- the fact that christianity fails-- and often fails spectacularly?
Stalin was an atheist who tried to exterminate religion though force. How many times do I have to tell you, Marxism is anti-religion.

Hitler was motivated by a militant racialism (which was considered solid science in the day) not Christian universalism. The word catholic literately means universal and is thus incompatible with the belief in Aryan supermen.

Nevertheless, Christianity dosen't promise a utopia of morally perfect people (Christianity in fact predicts the opposite). Christianity does promise that those who strive to live the Gospel can achieve great heights of moral virtue. We call the people who actually achieve this state saints. Christianity is hard which is why relatively few people truly live it.

Likely all the "good" is simply due to humans possessing a pretty strong empathy, and that most humans are mostly good people.
Most Germans during World War II were 'good' people. Most German solders were not deranged murderers, they were 'good' people following orders. One of the great truths expounded by Christianity is human weakness. Malevolent people are on the whole quite rare. But weak people who allow evil to run unopposed are the norm. Being merely 'good' is not a virtue. The true good, the heroic good, is the hard and difficult path laid out in the Gospel. It's a narrow path most people don't tread.

But you're an enlightened atheist, you know that morality is relative. So it can only be my opinion that murdering six million in concentration camps was a bad thing to do. Relativism is such an improvement over the Gospel.
 
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Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
You have been doing no such thing. You've been ignoring any and all historical scholarship that isn't in line with your ideological presuppositions on the mere assertion that anything not in line with said presuppositions is propaganda. Par the course for outspoken atheists on the internet though..

Nope. So far? you have bubkiss with respect to actual historical documentation. You posted unreferenced opinion. Carefully cherry-picked to agree with your-- "presuppositions".

You are just upset because christianity has inspired so much evil, down through the ages, that even WITH your apologizing "scholars", you cannot excuse the fact that christianity inspires evil people to even greater evil.
 
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