Do liberals and atheists honestly think Hitler represents Christianity?

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Where's the proof they worshipped ancestors?

Please enlighten me as to what religions were allowed to thrive under Mao and Pol Pot.

I'm sorry your education is lacking. I'm not here to be an educator on past historical figures.

There are actual University based websites, many of which feature History in the 20th and 21st centuries. For free.

Besides, it is clear you would never believe me anyway...

 

[Trip Bapho]

I'm trying to get through the Mao and Pol Pot thread but the notion that Hitler represents over 2 billion people is stupid.

As a person who is Atheist & Liberal its clear the thought that Hitler represents Christianity in any way is ridiculous.
However, IMO if religion didn't exist then actions like Hitlers would never happen.

I'm trying to get through the Mao and Pol Pot thread but the notion that Hitler represents over 2 billion people is stupid.

 

[Glaurung]

"Documented"? You mean by christian apologizers, desperately attempting to distance themselves from one of the **best** examples of why being a christian doesn't make you a good person?

Ah, I see. Anything which doesn't fit into your chosen narrative is "Christian apologetics". That must be convenient.

Adolf Hitler's religious beliefs have been a matter of debate; the wide consensus of historians consider him to have been irreligious, anti-Christian, anti-clerical and scientistic.[1] In light of evidence such as his fierce criticism and vocal rejection of the tenets of Christianity,[2] numerous private statements to confidants denouncing Christianity as a harmful superstition,[1] and his strenuous efforts to reduce the influence and independence of Christianity in Germany after he came to power, Hitler's major academic biographers conclude that he was irreligious and an opponent of Christianity.[1] Historian Laurence Rees found no evidence that "Hitler, in his personal life, ever expressed belief in the basic tenets of the Christian church".[3] Ernst Hanfstaengl, a friend from his early days in politics, says Hitler "was to all intents and purposes an atheist by the time I got to know him". However, historians such as Richard Weikart and Alan Bullock doubt the assessment that he was a true atheist, suggesting that despite his dislike of Christianity he still clung to a form of spiritual belief. [4]

Religious views of Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia

Of course I have an agenda-- to help people put away Santa Claus.

It's not your opposition to Christianity per se that I take issue with, it's that you have demonstrated that you will push outright untruths. What you're claiming, it just ain't true.

Yes. Obviously over your head, though, what with your blinders on.

I just don't see what half coherent rants about that Bible has to do with this discussion.

LMAO! Wikipedia? Who's content is written by the majority? And since the majority are **christian**--??

You'll notice that good Wikipedia articles cite their sources. As such, Wikipedia is fine for this level of discussion. If you find a more authoritative source which contradicts Wikipedia then by all means....

You yourself have offered nothing but assertion.

Again, you build a Straw Man. Not even a very good one.

I can't even strawman you because you've offered nothing in terms of an argument.

Your posts boils down to this: "Hitler was a devout Christian because I say so, any claim to the contrary (by that fact alone) is Christian apologetics".

The reasoning is admirable.

Fail. Lots of theists are also materialists. Here, you demonstrate your abject ignorance: just because it doesn't match YOUR warped theism, you pretend it isn't theistic.

A theist can be a methodological materialist, but that's not the materialism being talked about. We're talking about philosophical materialism, the denial of any reality beyond the interactions of matter. How you square that with theism is beyond me unless you claim unconscious matter itself is God. It doesn't even matter anyway because the Marxist regimes declared themselves atheist. And those who were not willing to profess atheism were brutalized and killed in their thousands.

So much atheist rhetoric these days hammers on and on about the pernicious influence of religion in the perpetuation of extreme ideologies. I bring up the Communist regimes not because I think any given atheist is a closet Stalinist who wants to kill me, but as a counterexample to the narrative that extreme ideology is a religious thing. Communism has proven itself an evil, murderous ideology and it is explicitly atheist in doctrine. Nazism on the other hand isn't inherently atheistic but that dosen't make it Christian. If anything, at least in among many of the higher rungs of the party, it was occultist.

LMAO! Wiki again? Written by theists, who are desperate to paint an ugly picture.

Wikipedia is a theist conspiracy now? And you're calling me cute?

It's fun that you feel entitled to hand wave whatever you don't like away on the mere assertion that anything not in line with your narrative must be Christian propaganda. We can't possibly entertain the notion that you could be wrong. No, you're an atheist, therefore you're always right.

LMAO! you have no source for your wild christian apologetics.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it Christian apologetics.

 

[Glaurung]

How about Hitler's many devout Christian followers? Do you think they were also anti-religious?

I don't deny that Christians have fallen pray to pernicious ideologies; I deny that Nazism is a Christian ideology. I am positive that you are intelligent enough to understand the distinction.

I also deny that Hitler was Christian. It's not "apologetics" to deny untruths peddled by agenda driven anti-Christians.

You do realize that these sorts of imposed statist ideologies have much more in common with religion than they do with the secular humanism and freethought that's common among Western atheists today, right?

Your thinking is no more free than mine; we are both products of our circumstances. Mine has led me to the conclusion that God exists, yours the contrary. And whilst I can respect honest atheism, I have no respect for self-aggrandizing nonsense of those who prattle on about how rational, free thinking and intelligent they are because they are atheists. But whatever, that isn't the real discussion. As I said to Bob the Unbeliever, it's not that I think any given atheist is a closet Stalinist, it's that atheism is no immunity from pathological ideology. Extremism is not confined to religious creeds. Political creeds can become just as dogmatic and at times, murderous.

It's a special kind of chauvinism that says "because these two groups both disagree with me on this one issue, their belief systems must be practically the same."

I never said that.

And the Chinese government isn't so much anti-religion as it's pro-controlled religion. The Chinese government has several officially sanctioned Christian denominational organizations. This certainly isn't in line with freedom of religion, but like many theocracies, they're fine with religious worship and belief as long as it's in a form that they sanction and control.

I even said as much. China isn't what it was under Mao, but it is still an oppressive regime that is explicitly atheist in doctrine.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't deny that Christians have fallen pray to pernicious ideologies; I deny that Nazism is a Christian ideology. I am positive that you are intelligent enough to understand the distinction.

I think there's a fairly straight line from acceptance of Christ to supercessionalism, from supercessionalism to anti-Semitism, and from anti-Semitism to Nazi ideology.

Certainly not all Christians do this, but there's no point of doctrine that all Christians agree on anyway. Just because you disagree with Nazi Christians doesn't mean that their beliefs don't fall under the umbrella of Christian thought.

I also deny that Hitler was Christian. It's not "apologetics" to deny untruths peddled by agenda driven anti-Christians.

I think you're wrong, but I think it doesn't really matter: whether Hitler was genuinely Christian himself or whether he was just feigning Christianity, there's no doubt that the vast majority of his followers were Christians and had no problem reconciling their Nazi ideology with their Christian faith.

Edit: Hitler didn't invent anti-Semitism. He tapped into a very long and very Christian tradition of anti-Semitism in Europe in general and in Germany in particular.

Your thinking is no more free than mine; we are both products of our circumstances. Mine has led me to the conclusion that God exists, yours the contrary. And whilst I can respect honest atheism, I have no respect for self-aggrandizing nonsense of those who prattle on about how rational, free thinking and intelligent they are because they are atheists.

"Freethought" is just the term for the group. If you think this casts aspersions on you, I can only hope that you have the same attitude toward Christian churches whose names no less imply that you're wrong, whether it's "Orthodox" (i.e. "true belief"), "Church of Jesus Christ" (i.e. "the church chosen by Christ"), or "Full Gospel" (implying that other churches only use part of the Gospel).

Go Google "freethinker" if you don't know what it means. It's not really a stance on the issue of free will.

But whatever, that isn't the real discussion. As I said to Bob the Unbeliever, it's not that I think any given atheist is a closet Stalinist, it's that atheism is no immunity from pathological ideology. Extremism is not confined to religious creeds. Political creeds can become just as dogmatic and at times, murderous.

Atheism is not a creed. Freethought is. Skepticism is. Secularism is. The fact that I don't believe in any gods is informed by these positions, but atheism isn't a philosophy in and of itself.

I never said that.

Not openly, but you certainly implied it by lumping all atheists together.

... but if you really do see more in common with Pol Pot, Mao, and me than the mere fact that we disagree with you on one point, please let me know what other positions there are in our supposed common "creed" of atheism.

I even said as much. China isn't what it was under Mao, but it is still an oppressive regime that is explicitly atheist in doctrine.

An "explicitly atheist" regime with state-sanctioned churches.

 

[Augustus]

They also let several flavors of religion THRIVE. If they were after ATHEISTIC regimes?

They never would have done that.

Besides--- neither were actual atheists. Both believed in ancestor worship.

During the Mao era the communist state’s attitude toward many traditional practices was hostile, and ancestor worship was harshly suppressed throughout society (Davis-Friedmann 1991; Davis 1993; Parish and Whyte 1978; Whyte 1988; Whyte
and Parish 1984). Still under the ancestors’ shadow? Ancestor worship and family formation in contemporary China - A Hu & F Tian

Also not sure how ancestor worship could THRIVE during the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution given that spirits were said to reside in specific pieces of land, or objects. The collectivisation of farmland disconnected people from their family lands and the destruction of old objects and pre-communist cultural artefacts destroyed the 'homes' of the spirits.

 

[ronki23]

During the Mao era the communist state’s attitude toward many traditional practices was hostile, and ancestor worship was harshly suppressed throughout society (Davis-Friedmann 1991; Davis 1993; Parish and Whyte 1978; Whyte 1988; Whyte
and Parish 1984). Still under the ancestors’ shadow? Ancestor worship and family formation in contemporary China - A Hu & F Tian

Also not sure how ancestor worship could THRIVE during the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution given that spirits were said to reside in specific pieces of land, or objects. The collectivisation of farmland disconnected people from their family lands and the destruction of old objects and pre-communist cultural artefacts destroyed the 'homes' of the spirits.

@Bob the Unbeliever

 

[ronki23]

As a person who is Atheist & Liberal its clear the thought that Hitler represents Christianity in any way is ridiculous.
However, IMO if religion didn't exist then actions like Hitlers would never happen.

You're implying if people didn't follow Yahweh they wouldn't have been murdered? Gotcha

 

[Trip Bapho]

You're implying if people didn't follow Yahweh they wouldn't have been murdered? Gotcha

There is always good and evil. There would always be good and evil actions of people...
There just wouldn't be any killing in the name of some god.
Its not that the removal of religon fixes everything. Its that religion is just another log on the fire. However there will always be logs so it doesn't really matter.

 

[Milton Platt]

I don't know if Hitler was even Christian? Can we shed some light on this?

It all depends upon who you ask. There are hundreds of different versions,at a minimum, and within those, you will,get dozens of variations of belief if you question people within a given church.
He was Catholic in his youth, and he did invoke the Christian god in his speeches sometimes. Also, his Storm Troopers had “God With Us” stamped into their belt buckles. However, that does not indicate that he was representative of all Christian thinking in his time. It must be noted that even today, politicians willingly profess the faith of the population they wish to get votes from. And that population willingly complies.

 

[Milton Platt]

You're implying if people didn't follow Yahweh they wouldn't have been murdered? Gotcha

No, he is saying that there would be one less excuse for evil without religion in general.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

However, that does not indicate that he was representative of all Christian thinking in his time.

But it's not as if any person or thing is "representative of all Christian thinking."

Any belief or practice of one group of Christians will be seen as heretical by some other group of Christians.

For many Nazis, Nazi ideology wasn't just compatible with their Christian beliefs; it was an expression of those Christian beliefs. The fact that many other Christians disagree with this position doesn't make the position not authentically Christian. Many Christians disagree with, say, the primacy of the Pope or with sola scriptura, but both of these are also authentically Christian, just like Nazi ideology.

 

[2ndpillar]

Atheism is not a creed. Freethought is. Skepticism is. Secularism is. The fact that I don't believe in any gods is informed by these positions, but atheism isn't a philosophy in and of itself.

It appears to me that atheist are their own god, and make the rules to suit themselves, if they even choose to have any rules. That seems a sort of a monotheism.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It appears to me that atheist are their own god, and make the rules to suit themselves, if they even choose to have any rules. That seems a sort of a monotheism.

The chauvinism seems rampant in this thread.

Your inability to relate to the idea of a belief system without gods does not mean that it actually has gods. Atheism is not just another version of your belief system.

 

[Milton Platt]

But it's not as if any person or thing is "representative of all Christian thinking."

Any belief or practice of one group of Christians will be seen as heretical by some other group of Christians.

For many Nazis, Nazi ideology wasn't just compatible with their Christian beliefs; it was an expression of those Christian beliefs. The fact that many other Christians disagree with this position doesn't make the position not authentically Christian. Many Christians disagree with, say, the primacy of the Pope or with sola scriptura, but both of these are also authentically Christian, just like Nazi ideology.

no argument with that, Penguin. It’s just hard to say specifically what his thinking and motives were when invoking their god.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

no argument with that, Penguin. It’s just hard to say specifically what his thinking and motives were when invoking their god.

Is it really that hard?

I mean, Hitler wrote a whole book explaining his thinking and motives. Here are a few quotes from it:

And so I believe to-day that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. In standing guard against the Jew I am defending the handiwork of the Lord.

To them belong, not only the truly great statesmen, but all other great reformers as well. Beside Frederick the Great stands Martin Luther as well as Richard Wagner.

And the Founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of His estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God; because then, as always, they used religion as a means of advancing their commercial interests. But at that time Christ was nailed to the Cross for his attitude towards the Jews; whereas our modern Christians enter into party politics and when elections are being held they debase themselves to beg for Jewish votes. They even enter into political intrigues with the atheistic Jewish parties against the interests of their own Christian nation.

We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

 

[Milton Platt]

Is it really that hard?

I mean, Hitler wrote a whole book explaining his thinking and motives. Here are a few quotes from it:

Thanks for the quotes. I haven’t read any of his works, just exerpts here and there. But we don’t know if this was his genuine belief or this was to sucker gullible Christians into supporting his madness. Personally, I think he was a Christian of some ilk. I’m just saying there is room to question. Whether he was or not, he was certainly supported by many Christians, and that is a more important point to me.

 

[Augustus]

For many Nazis, Nazi ideology wasn't just compatible with their Christian beliefs; it was an expression of those Christian beliefs. The fact that many other Christians disagree with this position doesn't make the position not authentically Christian. Many Christians disagree with, say, the primacy of the Pope or with sola scriptura, but both of these are also authentically Christian, just like Nazi ideology.

Out of interest, do you equally consider liberal interventionism such as the Iraq War to be 'authentically Secular Humanist'? Or eugenics and Social Darwinism as being 'authentically Rationalist'?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Out of interest, do you equally consider liberal interventionism such as the Iraq War to be 'authentically Secular Humanist'? Or eugenics and Social Darwinism as being 'authentically Rationalist'?

Eugenics is a rejection of rationalism, so no on that one.

How on earth are you linking secular humanism to the Iraq War? AFAIK, most if the decision-makers on it weren't even secular humanists.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Thanks for the quotes. I haven’t read any of his works, just exerpts here and there. But we don’t know if this was his genuine belief or this was to sucker gullible Christians into supporting his madness. Personally, I think he was a Christian of some ilk. I’m just saying there is room to question. Whether he was or not, he was certainly supported by many Christians, and that is a more important point to me.

Oh, I agree. He was inspired by Christian thought and created an ideology with Christians in mind. Whether he did it as a sincere expression of Christian faith or if he was only feigning Christianity for pragmatic reasons, Nazi ideology was designed to work in a Christian context.