Do liberals and atheists honestly think Hitler represents Christianity?

[Jumi]

... because they recognized that Luther's anti-Semitism was reflecting on them and took steps to address it.

And the only denominations I know who have actually taken steps to condemn Luther's anti-Semitism are Lutheran denominations.

Also, note something in what you said: "after the War." When people finally saw, through news reports out out Nazi-occupied Europe, what it really meant to put Luther's teachings about the Jews into practice, they were naturally repelled by what they saw.

However, in Hitler's time, his attitudes and behaviours toward Jews reflected a mindset that was very mainstream for - and was a product of - Christianity in general and Luther-derived teachings in particular.

Indeed, they made several corrections. You could argue that Lutheranism of today bears little resemblance to Lutheranism of 1930s. In my country as well as Scandinavia the Lutherans of the time didn't persecute the Jews, so the Nazi interest in promoting the dark side of Luther wasn't universal even then.

 

[ronki23]

No. Hitler most definitely was a christian-- he wrote about it in his private diaries. He very much believed that he was a christian in good standing with the christian god.

Since there is no over-arching authority that would kill anyone who claims to be 'christian' but is only faking, who would have killed him before allowing him to fake it.

Which is just as well, because if there was such an authority? I wonder what the percentage of those claiming to be 'christian' would be affected, today?

Ok; then Mao and Pol Pot were atheists

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok; then Mao and Pol Pot were atheists

And?

 

[ronki23]

And?

@Bob the Unbeliever @HonestJoe

Hitler clearly wasn't a conventional Christian if he wanted to change the state religion to Norse mythology. Also he couldn't even make his mind up if he was Catholic or Protestant.

Mao on the other hand killed Christians, Buddhists and Muslims with the destruction of the Four Olds during the Cultural Revolution.

Christians, Muslims and Buddhists were killed under Pol Pot's regime too.

So if you blame Christianity for Hitler's actions then you must blame atheism on Mao and Pol Pot. If you want to agree to disagree we can call them anti-theists instead of atheists

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

@Bob the Unbeliever @HonestJoe

Hitler clearly wasn't a conventional Christian if he wanted to change the state religion to Norse mythology.

... which he didn't.

Also he couldn't even make his mind up if he was Catholic or Protestant.

Where are you getting this from? As I touched on earlier, apparently he never attended mass after he left home. Why do you think he considered Catholicism?

Mao on the other hand killed Christians, Buddhists and Muslims with the destruction of the Four Olds during the Cultural Revolution.

Christians, Muslims and Buddhists were killed under Pol Pot's regime too.

So if you blame Christianity for Hitler's actions then you must blame atheism on Mao and Pol Pot. If you want to agree to disagree we can call them anti-theists instead of atheists

So... you think that because two people both disagree that gods exist, all other aspects of their worldview must be the same?

I, an atheist, am happy to disavow whatever inspired Pol Pot to murder. Do you think the average Protestant is going to reject the teachings of Martin Luther? The supercessionalist stuff in the Bible?

 

[HonestJoe]

So if you blame Christianity for Hitler's actions then you must blame atheism on Mao and Pol Pot. If you want to agree to disagree we can call them anti-theists instead of atheists

I DON'T BLAME CHRISTIANITY FOR HITLER'S ACTIONS!

I doesn't matter if Hitler was Christian and it doesn't matter if Mao/Pol Pot were atheist (or even anti-theist). Their personal policies and actions, even if there were influenced by their theological beliefs, don't reflect on anyone else who holds similar beliefs.

 

[SomeRandom]

@Bob the Unbeliever

So if you blame Christianity for Hitler's actions then you must blame atheism on Mao and Pol Pot. If you want to agree to disagree we can call them anti-theists instead of atheists

No one blames Christianity for Hitler. Straw man much?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I'm trying to get through the Mao and Pol Pot thread but the notion that Hitler represents over 2 billion people is stupid.

Christianity is a religion that fixates on global annihilation. What's more interesting is that he wasn't more popular than he was.

I dont see any genocides or mass murders or land grabs and war in the NT

They stopped writing before the legalization of Christianity, where that all occurs.

Cocaine and opiates along with amphetamines were commonly prescribed way back then

Yeah, it wouldn't have been illegal back then.

Hitler was prepared to do away with most Christians and had already started with the JWs.

How is that different from people now, like Protestants who think Catholics aren't Christian? All you have to do is just convince yourself the other denominations aren't "real".

Pol Pot and Mao are to Buddhism what Hitler was to Catholicism.

Not as familiar with Buddhism, though I know there have been "bad days" with them as well. Catholicism made killing others a sport (so to speak). I think it's less offensive to think Hitler was Christian than to realize Christianity, when viewing what it does instead of what it preaches, is just as bad.

The Protestants, especially Lutherans, have made strides to correct themselves after the War.

We're putting kids in concentration camps. We are pretty much copy-pasting Nazi ideals at this point. We have learned nothing.

If we learn anything, it that we should be wary of things like cultural relativism, and saying this or that religion is just another religion.

Given that Christians make up most of the prisoners in our jails, clearly Christianity isn't the awesome thing it says it is. It IS like everyone else.

Does this religion impose laws not on its owb followers but on non-followers? If so, it is not a religion at all but a political system.

So, Christianity isn't a religion because people think statues of Jesus should be in courthouses, just not statues of Buddha or Satan or whatever. It wants taxpayer funded Christian schools, not schools led by other religions. It's just politics. I agree.

Political alliances don't work

Really?

does appeasement

Of course not, as long as we're only appeasing the right people, like fundies.

nor does expansion

The only thing I'll agree on. We do not have the courage to revamp governmental paradigms to govern large tracts of land.

What China did by building walls against Mongolian invaders (fine for Qin Shi Huang Di, but when Trump does it it's racist).

Well, it is racist. Also, the wall ultimately failed. Every famous wall in history has fallen at one point or another.

Big alliances like the UN.

You realize that's likely stopping the rest of the world from coming to attack us, right? If I were another country and I saw the kind of crap the US was doing, I'd go after it too. (I'd need alliances, of course, because unlike some piddly European country, we have a lot of territory to cover and that would take mad skillz, just like an attack on Russia would.)

I was always perturbed by how quickly everyone seemed to follow Hitler. I mean I know the first war had made the Germans a little desperate. But geesh!

If Trump wins 2020, we'll see just how bad it gets. It doesn't matter what these leaders do as long as they tell a bunch of idiots that their idiocy isn't the reason for their failures, it's those actual competent people over there.

 

[ronki23]

Liked your point. Pol Pot and Mao are to Buddhism what Hitler was to Catholicism.
And also, what Stalin was to the Russian Orthodox church (of which he was a member)
A complete abrogation.
But there IS a connection with atheism. Nietzsche and Dostoevsky both wrote about
what will replace Christianity - Nietzche said it would be nihilism and Dostoevsky said
it would be totalitarianism. Both philosophies played their part in the mass killings of the
20th Century - a lot of it within what was the old Christendom of Europe.

Except they killed Buddhists and destroyed temples

 

[ronki23]

... which he didn't.


Where are you getting this from? As I touched on earlier, apparently he never attended mass after he left home. Why do you think he considered Catholicism?


So... you think that because two people both disagree that gods exist, all other aspects of their worldview must be the same?

I, an atheist, am happy to disavow whatever inspired Pol Pot to murder. Do you think the average Protestant is going to reject the teachings of Martin Luther? The supercessionalist stuff in the Bible?

Because he was Baptised and had a lot of Catholic followers despite Germany being a Protestant country

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Ok; then Mao and Pol Pot were atheists

Not really. Both were believers in ancestral spirits. That's not 'atheist', that's theism.

Not all gods are magical super sky fairies who grant wishes (prayers).

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

@Bob the Unbeliever @HonestJoe

Hitler clearly wasn't a conventional Christian if he wanted to change the state religion to Norse mythology. Also he couldn't even make his mind up if he was Catholic or Protestant..

He believed he was. And, according to the Bible? Belief is all you need to qualify as "christian".

So, there you go!

Mao on the other hand killed Christians, Buddhists and Muslims with the destruction of the Four Olds during the Cultural Revolution..

Christians, Muslims and Buddhists were killed under Pol Pot's regime too.

So if you blame Christianity for Hitler's actions then you must blame atheism on Mao and Pol Pot. If you want to agree to disagree we can call them anti-theists instead of atheists

So? They saw **religion** as competing for POWER-- and they hated that.

They also let several flavors of religion THRIVE. If they were after ATHEISTIC regimes?

They never would have done that.

Besides--- neither were actual atheists. Both believed in ancestor worship.

ooops! You ought to look for better sources for your propaganda.

 

[Glaurung]

No. Hitler most definitely was a christian-- he wrote about it in his private diaries. He very much believed that he was a christian in good standing with the christian god.

Yes, he was so Christian as to intend the long term eradication of Christianity. Makes sense.

Hitler would have just as readily claimed to be Wiccan if it were politically advantageous. Taking Hitler's professions of faith as a serious indication of his views is moronic. Hitler's real views were anti-religious and much of the inner circle of the Nazi party were occultists who believed in Germanic Atlantis. (Yes really, look up the Thule society).

Not really. Both were believers in ancestral spirits. That's not 'atheist', that's theism.

They were also advocates of an ideology that insisted on state enforced atheism. Materialism is a core tenet of Marxist Communism.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Yes, he was so Christian as to intend the long term eradication of Christianity. Makes sense..

I have read parts of his personal diaries. Hitler firmly believed he was doing the Christian God's Holy Works. Go read it for yourself-- it's online, in English. Or don't, and keep harboring false information. You appear to thrive on that sort of thing... (see below).

Since, according to the bible? FAITH is all you need? Hitler had FAITH in spades-- so according to the same bible? He was as christian as anyone.

Ooops.

Hitler would have just as readily claimed to be Wiccan if it was politically advantageous. Taking Hitler's professions of faith as a serious indication of his views is moronic. Hiter's real views were anti-religious and much of the inner circle of the Nazi party were occultists who believed in Germanic Atlantis. (Thule)..

Citation? No? Just more propaganda? Gotcha.

They were also advocates of an ideology that insisted on state enforced atheism. Materialism is a core tenet of Marxist Communism.

No-- they insisted on state enforced OBEDIENCE.

Atheism isn't materialism, by the way. That's another Straw Man by you.

IF your silly claim were accurate? Why did they allow several flavors of actual religion to thrive?

Just because it isn't **your** brand of religion, doesn't not make it one.

 

[Glaurung]

I have read parts of his personal diaries. Hitler firmly believed he was doing the Christian God's Holy Works. Go read it for yourself-- it's online, in English. Or don't, and keep harboring false information. You appear to thrive on that sort of thing... (see below).

Again, this is absurdly naive. We know Hitler was anti-religious because he made it abundantly clear to his inner circle. This is documented.

But really, it is rich that you would so readily accuse others of having an agenda when you advertise yours so explicitly.

Since, according to the bible? FAITH is all you need? Hitler had FAITH in spades-- so according to the same bible? He was as christian as anyone.

I'm sorry, is this suppose to pass as a coherent point?

Citation? No? Just more propaganda? Gotcha.

Thule Society - Wikipedia

No-- they insisted on state enforced OBEDIENCE.

Yes, and those very same states demanded the adoption of materialism. Marxism is doctrinally atheist.

Atheism isn't materialism, by the way. That's another Straw Man by you.

Atheism isn't necessarily materialist, but materialism is necessarily atheistic.

IF your silly claim were accurate? Why did they allow several flavors of actual religion to thrive?

Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge
The Khmer Rouge actively persecuted Buddhists during their reign from 1975 to 1979.[54] Buddhist institutions and temples were destroyed and Buddhist monks and teachers were killed in large numbers.[55] A third of the nation's monasteries were destroyed along with numerous holy texts and items of high artistic quality. 25,000 Buddhist monks were massacred by the regime,[56] which was officially an atheist state.[7] The persecution was undertaken because Pol Pot believed that Buddhism was "a decadent affectation". He sought to eliminate Buddhism's 1,500-year-old mark on Cambodia.[56]

Religion was also banned, and the repression of adherents of Islam, Christianity, and Buddhism was extensive. And according to Ben Kiernan, the "fiercest extermination campaign was directed against the ethnic Cham Muslim minority".[57]

China
China is an officially atheist state,[58] which has promoted atheism throughout the country.[59][6] In April 2016, the General Secretary, Xi Jinping, stated that members of the Communist Party of China must be "unyielding Marxist atheists" while in the same month, government officials ran over Chinese Christians who protested the demolition of their church.[60]

State atheism - Wikipedia

Granted, China has abandoned the deranged anti-religion of the Maoist era. They're not going to kill you for being religious these days (for the most part) although they may send you to re-education. Atheism remains an ideological tenet of the regime. You can't pretend that away.

But by all means, keep accusing others of being ill-informed.

 

[Jumi]

We're putting kids in concentration camps. We are pretty much copy-pasting Nazi ideals at this point. We have learned nothing.

The US is quite different, that's for sure. In Europe the protestants are quite another type.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Again, this is absurdly naive. We know Hitler was anti-religious because he made it abundantly clear to his inner circle. This is documented..

"Documented"? You mean by christian apologizers, desperately attempting to distance themselves from one of the **best** examples of why being a christian doesn't make you a good person?

Naaaa.... I think you are making that up.

But really, it is rich that you would so readily accuse others of having an agenda when you advertise yours so explicitly..

Of course I have an agenda-- to help people put away Santa Claus.

I'm sorry, is this suppose to pass as a coherent point?
.

Yes. Obviously over your head, though, what with your blinders on.

Thule Society - Wikipedia
.

LMAO! Wikipedia? Who's content is written by the majority? And since the majority are **christian**--??

Oh. My. that's so funny!

Yes, and those very same states demanded the adoption of materialism. Marxism is doctrinally atheist..

Again, you build a Straw Man. Not even a very good one.

Atheism isn't necessarily materialist, but materialism is necessarily atheistic.
.

Fail. Lots of theists are also materialists. Here, you demonstrate your abject ignorance: just because it doesn't match YOUR warped theism, you pretend it isn't theistic.

State atheism - Wikipedia
.

LMAO! Wiki again? Written by theists, who are desperate to paint an ugly picture.

You are too cute.

Granted, China has abandoned the deranged anti-religion of the Maoist era. They're not going to kill you for being religious these days (for the most part) although they may send you to re-education. Atheism remains an ideological tenet of the regime. You can't pretend that away..

LMAO! you have no source for your wild christian apologetics.

And you still do not understand 'atheism' ... at all.

But by all means, keep accusing others of being ill-informed.

Irony Meter: It go boom. LMAO!

This from an ******* who thinks wikipedia is.... a source.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Again, this is absurdly naive. We know Hitler was anti-religious because he made it abundantly clear to his inner circle. This is documented.

Many religious people are antagonistic to other denominations/belief systems/etc.

How about Hitler's many devout Christian followers? Do you think they were also anti-religious?

Granted, China has abandoned the deranged anti-religion of the Maoist era. They're not going to kill you for being religious these days (for the most part) although they may send you to re-education. Atheism remains an ideological tenet of the regime. You can't pretend that away.

But by all means, keep accusing others of being ill-informed.

You do realize that these sorts of imposed statist ideologies have much more in common with religion than they do with the secular humanism and freethought that's common among Western atheists today, right?

It's a special kind of chauvinism that says "because these two groups both disagree with me on this one issue, their belief systems must be practically the same."

And the Chinese government isn't so much anti-religion as it's pro-controlled religion. The Chinese government has several officially sanctioned Christian denominational organizations. This certainly isn't in line with freedom of religion, but like many theocracies, they're fine with religious worship and belief as long as it's in a form that they sanction and control.

 

[Altfish]

You can't blame the Old Testament on Hitler killing Jews when they also believe in the Old Testament and not the New Testament.

Hitler was literally inbred and suffered from PTSD. He also took cocaine and heroin.

His hatred of Jews was supported (or certainly not dissuaded) by Pope Pious XII - The Pope virtually turned a blind eye to the Holocaust.

 

[ronki23]

He believed he was. And, according to the Bible? Belief is all you need to qualify as "christian".

So, there you go!


So? They saw **religion** as competing for POWER-- and they hated that.

They also let several flavors of religion THRIVE. If they were after ATHEISTIC regimes?

They never would have done that.

Besides--- neither were actual atheists. Both believed in ancestor worship.

ooops! You ought to look for better sources for your propaganda.

Where's the proof they worshipped ancestors?

Please enlighten me as to what religions were allowed to thrive under Mao and Pol Pot.