1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Deuteronomy 13:1-6?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by LAGoff, Oct 6, 2019.

  1. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2019
    Messages:
    2,611
    Ratings:
    +301
    Religion:
    Christian
    OK. I agree with (Deut. 13:1-6)

    Now....(Deut. 18).

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,444
    Ratings:
    +1,212
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    What if Jesus is Jehovah? Why don't you consider the obvious?
     
  3. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,444
    Ratings:
    +1,212
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    The covenant with Moses was between the Hebrews and God. There were moral laws such as "thou shalt not kill" and ritually significant laws such as to abstain from pork. But, you can't expect gentiles who are not in the old Covenant to obey the ritual laws of that old Covenant. Would you judge a man from China or something who had never heard of Moses much less his law because he ate pork? Yet this man from China was morally in line with the Torah? He did not commit adultery. He did not murder. He loved his neighbor as himself?

    Yet you say he is condemned because he ate a pig?

    For all that; God continually promised a time when He would give a new Covenant to the house of Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34) and would give salvation to gentiles as well as Hebrews.

    (Psalm 82:8) God would inherit all nations(goyim)
    Isaiah 49:6 promise to the Messiah that He would be a light for the gentiles and salvation(Yshua!) to the ends of the earth.
     
  4. LAGoff

    LAGoff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2010
    Messages:
    129
    Ratings:
    +28
    Religion:
    Jew
     
  5. LAGoff

    LAGoff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2010
    Messages:
    129
    Ratings:
    +28
    Religion:
    Jew

    So you are saying Deut.13 doesn't apply because Jesus is the word of God?
    So 'the Word' said "eat my flesh and drink my blood"? This can't be justified from the OT, let alone the Tora.
     
  6. LAGoff

    LAGoff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2010
    Messages:
    129
    Ratings:
    +28
    Religion:
    Jew
    My bad. In responding to the posts here, I now know that I can easily make my case by just what's written in the NT.
    "I vant you tu eat my flesh and dreenk my bluuuud, and I vill give you eternal life."
     
  7. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,444
    Ratings:
    +1,212
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Well there is a new Covenant and true Christians(followers of the Christ, both Jew and gentile) are members of the real Israel which is Jesus Christ. Jesus is Israel. If you want to know the truth. Jacob is dead and they brought him out of Egypt alright. (Hosea 11:1) But only as a corpse to bury him in the promised land. (Genesis 50:1-7) But Jesus having died once; is alive for evermore. And when Jacob is resurrected(which he will be) it will be through Jesus Christ. (John 11:25) Which is why we know Jesus is the head of the body of the real Israel. That is the Israel that lives forever rather than the temporal one that dies. And when a baby is born his head comes out first of the womb as we all know. So then Jesus comes first into eternal life and the rest of Israel will follow. (Romans 8:19)

    So I have nothing against Hebrews but if they aren't believing in Jesus they are clinging to what is temporal. They are metaphorically clinging to the corpse of old Jacob. Or they are living in his tomb. But why do they seek for the living among the dead? Or you could even say they are building their house on the sand. This temporal world is passing away. The Rock is eternal that people should build their house on.

    The new Covenant is misunderstood by many people. All it really is; is life from the dead. That is the resurrection and the new Covenant are the same thing.
     
  8. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,444
    Ratings:
    +1,212
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    Jesus spoke in metaphors and mysteries. But many could not understand as He said of them in Matthew 13:14 and Jesus said that those who don't understand the Word are like when the birds of the air come and take the seed out of their heart before it can grow. As Satan takes the word from people when they don't understand. This means the Word was made unfruitful by the lack of understanding it.

    You don't seem to understand that to eat His flesh and drink His blood is to believe in what He was going to do on the cross. For He gives His body to be broken for the life of the world. Which is why He would call His body the bread of life. And He gives His blood to atone for the sins of the world. Which is why He would call it drink.
     
  9. LAGoff

    LAGoff Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2010
    Messages:
    129
    Ratings:
    +28
    Religion:
    Jew
     
  10. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,444
    Ratings:
    +1,212
    Religion:
    Itiswhatitis
    I could never bring myself to believe the trinity doctrine. Something in me is against the idea that God is more than one person. Perhaps you are the same.

    To me God is one and the Word is not a separate person. God is only one person.

    We humans form our words with our breath. God also uses His own breath to form His Words. But God doesn't breathe air. God's breath is from Himself; not the atmosphere. God's breath is His Spirit because God has life within Himself. Unlike us mortals who live by breathing the atmosphere.

    So the Spirit of God forms the Word of God when He speaks. Just as we send out vibrations in the air to form sound by our vocal cords. God's Word is vibrations within His own holy Spirit.

    In other words, (pun not intended) the Word of God is the Spirit of God sent out with purpose/direction to create or in some cases to destroy.

    So through the Word of God or by the breath of His mouth; God created all things. (see Psalm 33:6)
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    13,883
    Ratings:
    +7,742
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    This has been explained to you already, his words were not literal......and if you want to be taken seriously here you will have to lift your game. You do not come across as being authentically Jewish to our Jewish posters here.....why is that do you think? :shrug:
     
  12. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2013
    Messages:
    11,720
    Ratings:
    +8,415
    Religion:
    Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism
    I think you're barking up the wrong tree. If the prey was ever there, it's long gone.
     
  13. Firemorphic

    Firemorphic Activist Membrane

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2018
    Messages:
    946
    Ratings:
    +569
    Religion:
    Islam (Twelver Shia)
    While I do (naturally) accept Jesus as a prophet, I find (and I often actually quote those passages to Christians) myself that this passage of Devarim does beg for more humbleness from Christians in their proselytizing and antagonizing. Once you assume doctrines like "you can only be saved through Jesus and nothing else, not even HaShem", you set yourself up for massive logical errors and of course major ontological issues in the nature of one's theology.
    Everything is always a matter of someone having a response to someone else's response or an alternative interpretation, and after all most of the New Testament itself is a polemic to justify taking an intercessor for God (when not interpreting Jesus' sayings as mystical, as they often clearly are), which is of course in stark contradiction from the Torah and rest of the Tanakh.

    When it comes to Christian interpretation of the Tanakh, I see much of the time, them being very out of the water, trying their luck so-to-speak. Certainly though the very apocalyptic nature of Christianity and it's sense of imminence of the end times (as per the NT) is enough to bring in (at least from the textual point of the canonical NT itself) the possibly of Jesus being a false prophet, especially from a Toraic point of view.
     
  14. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2019
    Messages:
    2,611
    Ratings:
    +301
    Religion:
    Christian
    Note that Jesus, when saying one must eat His flesh and drink His blood, offered no defense or explanation for that statement. (John 6:47-67)

    It offended many, and many ceased to follow Him. He just let them go. Then asked His disciples, "Will you also go away?" (John 6:67)

    Jesus Christ will always offend.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
    #34 Good-Ole-Rebel, Oct 7, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2019
  15. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    Isaiah 49:6 is about Israel being a light unto the gentiles.. No mention of the messiah.
     
  16. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2004
    Messages:
    8,446
    Ratings:
    +1,969
    Religion:
    Øneness
    Isaiah 49:6 Indeed, he says, “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel? I will also give you as a light to the nations, that you may be my salvation (H3444 = Yeshua) to the end of the earth.”

    The person spoken of in Isaiah 46:9 brings in Israel, so they can't be Israel, and Bring Israel back at the same time.... All prophecy says God, and the Messiah bring Israel back.

    This is specifically about the Salvation of God (H3444) interacting with mankind.

    H3444 (Yeshua) + H1961 (To become) = Exodus 15:2, Psalms 118:14-21, Isaiah 12:2 (2 Samuel 10:11 David Vs Ammon) +5 Verses Isaiah

    H3444 (Yeshua) + H7200 (To see) = Exodus 14:13, Psalms 98:3, Isaiah 52:10 (2 Chronicles 20:17 Jehoshaphat Vs Ammon)

    This is one of the '+5 verses search results in Isaiah', that define two of the supposed servant songs as being about the Salvation of God (Yeshua H3444), and the others therefore specifically about the Messiah's suffering.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    Israel is God's servant.. Israel is also called harlot, Sodom ..
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  18. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    13,292
    Ratings:
    +4,396
    Religion:
    Christian
    Hosea 11:1 is about Israel.. Israel is God's son that he loves and brought out of Egypt.. Its a reference to the Exodus. Jesus was never in Egypt. Matthew made that up.
     
  19. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2019
    Messages:
    3,171
    Ratings:
    +2,466
    Religion:
    agnostic
    No, they are not. Read about the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 thru 34. No mention of resurrection.
     
  20. SA Huguenot

    SA Huguenot Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2019
    Messages:
    1,680
    Ratings:
    +377
    Religion:
    Protestant
    I think you have the idea that YHWH is a God who is far removed from this world and is a single being, whilst I am sure that God consists of the "Existance" or the Father, the "Spirit", and the "Word" or mind of God.
    This is one being, and not 3 beings.
    I am a Christian, and I believe God to be what we call a Trinity.
    I will never believe in a polyistic God, because the OT say I should not make any god equal to YHWH.
    Yet, I do know that the Holy Spirit of YHWH can leave the existance of YHWH and hover above the water when God created the world.
    I also know that Yhavehashua is the "Word" of God which means, the Mind of God.
    And this Mind of God came to earth and became a man to die like a man, and again ascended into heaven to return to YHWH as HIS Mind.
    Now, untill anyone can prove to me that YHWH does not have a Spirit that can create, or has no Mind that became a man, I will continue to worship YHWH, His Spirit and His Word.
    Again, I will never believe Jesus to be another "God" equal to YHWH, no, He is YHWH!
     
Loading...