Deuteronomy 13:1-6?

[74x12]

You're NOT risen from the dead. Sheesh.

Not bodily yet; but in spirit everyone who is in the new Covenant is. As Jesus said the kingdom of God doesn't come with observation because it is within you. (Luke 17:20)

So we are supposed to count our bodies as dead while we live and our spirits alive to God. That's how we're in the world but not of the world.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Not bodily yet; but in spirit everyone who is in the new Covenant is. As Jesus said the kingdom of God doesn't come with observation because it is within you. (Luke 17:20)

So we are supposed to count our bodies as dead while we live and our spirits alive to God. That's how we're in the world but not of the world.

 

[74x12]

View attachment 33978

Nothing Paul and the others didn't already say in so many words.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Nothing Paul and the others didn't already say in so many words.

So they made them up!

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not bodily yet; but in spirit everyone who is in the new Covenant is. As Jesus said the kingdom of God doesn't come with observation because it is within you. (Luke 17:20)

So we are supposed to count our bodies as dead while we live and our spirits alive to God. That's how we're in the world but not of the world.

I hate it when people take references that are obviously literal, such as the resurrection of the boy, and turn them into something figurative, such as some kind of spiritual rebirth. It's dishonest. What's more, we can look to the actual literal reference and see whether yes it happened or no it has not. But the spiritual figurative sense is anyone's guess as to whether its happened -- it's just not falsifiable. Yuck.

 

[74x12]

I hate it when people take references that are obviously literal, such as the resurrection of the boy, and turn them into something figurative, such as some kind of spiritual rebirth. It's dishonest. What's more, we can look to the actual literal reference and see whether yes it happened or no it has not. But the spiritual figurative sense is anyone's guess as to whether its happened -- it's just not falsifiable. Yuck.

Wait, what boy are we talking about?

And Jesus spoke of spiritual rebirth before the resurrection in John 3:3-5. And it's not supposed to be falsifiable.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Wait, what boy are we talking about?

And Jesus spoke of spiritual rebirth before the resurrection in John 3:3-5. And it's not supposed to be falsifiable.

Typo alrert. SB body, not boy.

I'm just saying that when we say resurrection, we are talking about resurrection, and not spiritual rebirth.

 

[74x12]

Typo alrert. SB body, not boy.

Ah ... body. Thanks for clearing that up. I was thinking about the boy that Elijah raised from the dead or something.

I'm just saying that when we say resurrection, we are talking about resurrection, and not spiritual rebirth.

I see what you mean. But, what if resurrection begins within and ends up on the day when everyone is bodily resurrected? That's what I and other Christians like myself believe. That's why we believe we aren't under obligation to keep the Law of Moses.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I see what you mean. But, what if resurrection begins within and ends up on the day when everyone is bodily resurrected? That's what I and other Christians like myself believe. That's why we believe we aren't under obligation to keep the Law of Moses.

Nope, this is why I'm saying that resurrection means resurrection and not spiritual rebirth.

Gentiles have NEVER been obligated to keep the Law of Moses. Some laws are universal, i.e. don't murder, don't steal, etc. But refraining from pork and shellfish? Keeping the Sabbath? Making sin offerings? No, my friends, non-Jews were never obligated, and so were never freed from any obligation. Remember how many times it is written, "And the LORD said, Speak to the Children of Israel," not to the World, not to the Nations.

As for us Jews, our covenant is everlasting. Nothing has changed. We still observe the 613 laws. In fact, if you read your Christian Scriptures carefully, you will find that the Jewish believers, including the apostles, all were "zealous for Torah." Acts 21:20

 

[Crosstian]

These six verses [Deut. 12:32, 13:1-5 KJB] for me are spot on and lead me to reject Christianity, even verse 3 [13:2 KJB] where I know you will say that it doesn't apply because Jesus never actually said "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," ...

Jesus never said it. The opposite testimony of Him was given in all the NT, and He Himself stated that He had kept the Father's commandments:

that "holy thing" [Luke 1:35]

and "holy child" [Acts 4:27,30]

"… But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none." [Matthew 26:60]

"... the innocent blood..." [Matthew 27:4]

"... For he knew that for envy they had delivered him. ..." [Matthew 27:18]

"… Have thou nothing to do with that just man …" [Matthew 27:19]

"… Why, what evil hath he done? …" [Matthew 27:23]

"… I am innocent of the blood of this just person …" [Matthew 27:24]

"The said Pilate … I find no fault in this man.” [Luke 23:4]

"… Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him:" [Luke 23:14]

"… what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him ..." [Luke 23:22]

"... lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him." [Luke 23:15]

"... this man hath done nothing amiss." [Luke 23:41]

"… Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man." [Luke 23:47]

"Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?" [John 8:46]

"... I have kept my Father's commandments ..." [John 15:10]

"... I find in him no fault [at all]." [John 18:38]

"... I find no fault in him." [John 19:4]

"... I find no fault in him." [John 19:6]

"... the obedience of one ..." [Romans 5:19]

"... who knew no sin ..." [2 Corinthians 5:21]

"... without sin." [Hebrews 4:15]

"... [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners ..." [Hebrews 7:26]

"Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:" [1 Peter 2:22]

"... in him is no sin." [1 John 3:5]

"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God ..." [Hebrews 9:4;p]

... and he was probably talking about Jehova (though he only said my/our Father) ...

Yes, Jesus referred to His Father, on numerous occasions, so many, I will not bother to list them here. Jesus does directly take up the name of His Father in quoting Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:17-18;

Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Upon the Cross, Jesus also quotes Psalms 22:1:

Mat_27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mar_15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

There is no need to doubt, at all.

... but I read the Tora passage in light of what actually happened in real history ...

Try to not switch objects midstream. It's either Jesus, or some people who claimed to follow Jesus. It's one or the other. The NT is real history, even as recorded by Luke.

For instance, Judas claimed to follow Jesus, and betrayed Him. Peter denied Him, as they all did. So, which target do you want to look at?

... where the vast majority of Christians are in effect worshiping/following other gods because they don't observe Jehova's laws ...

There is a certain truth to this statement, and not to be denied. Yet not all do, even as you yourself say, "majority", which is exactly what Jesus said:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Therefore, you admit there is another group in omission, that is not "majority". Why then reject the good with the bad?

 

[Crosstian]

... and-- especially in the case of Catholic and Orthodox Christians -- they have added observances which clearly fall into the "which you have not known" category such as Trinity

On the most part, this is true, except, there are multiple definitions to the word, which upon inspection, one could still rightly apply, as witnessed in the TaNaKh. I agree that the word is not a great word, but considering what the TaNaKh does say first would be helpful, for instance:

Zec_13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Isa_9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isa_48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Hos 1:4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
Hos 1:5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.
Hos 1:6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
Hos 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Ecc 12:1 Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; (*plural Hebrew)

For, “Remember thy Creator in the days of thy youth,” is literally, “Remember thy Creators.” Again, “None saith, Where is God my Maker?” is in the Hebrew, “God my Makers.” So again, “Let Israel rejoice in him that made him,” is, in the Hebrew, “in his Makers.” And so again in the Proverbs, “The knowledge of the Holy Ones is understanding.” So again where the prophet says, “Thy Maker is thy husband,” both words are plural in the Hebrew. Many other passages of Scripture have precisely the same peculiarity.

And if you just want Torah, Genesis itself alone:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Exo_23:21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him.

etc.

... eating pig (which is big in the Bible Belt, even on the Day of Atonement), shellfish, etc. ...

Yeah, that is still a sin, not merely against God, for transgression of His law, but also against one's body, which belongs to God.

... (i.e. the ritual laws) ...

You will have to be more clear here, and give an example.

... Sunday worship ...

This one is a little more subil, since God is to be worshiped everyday, and at all times, and so, merely attending a service on "sunday" to worship God, wouldn't be transgression of any known law in scripture. However, to neglect the 4th commandment (Exodus 20:8-11) would be sin.

... Mary veneration ...

Yes, that is idolatry, etc and is sin, clearly forbidden in scripture. Jesus never taught that. Whenever Jesus is seen addressing Mary in scripture, it is "Woman".

... communion (drinking Jesus' blood and body) ...

Depends what you mean here definitionally. The Mass is blasphemy to be sure, and counter to all the scripture where it is forbidden to eat flesh of men, or drink any blood (men or not). However, since Jesus words were symbolic, those who just eat bread and drink the fruit of the vine (unfermented, no leaven) and dwell upon the words (bread) and life (blood) of Jesus transgress nothing written.

Joh_6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

The people in Jesus day, including His own disciples, were continually confusing the spiritual with the natural:

John 1:19-25 (John the Baptist as Elijah)
John 2:19-22 (Temple of His body)
John 3:1-21 (Nicodemus, Born Again)
John 4:7-15 (Woman a the Well, Water)
John 4:31-34 (Meat to Eat, Water to Drink)
John 5:6-7 (Will you be made whole, Pool)
John 6:50-52 (Eat my Flesh, Word)
John 7:38-39 (Water out of the belly, Spirit)
Matthew 16:5-12 (Leaven, Bread)

Jesus wasn't saying to take a bite out of Himself.

... infant baptism, etc.. ...

Agreed, there is no place in scripture which sanctions the pagan practice of infant baptism.

So, while there are such groups which do the things you mention, not all do. Therefore, why throw out the good with the bad?

I am Seventh-day Adventist.

 

[Crosstian]

Well, there's plenty in the NT, such as Unless you drink my blood and eat my flesh...;

Already addressed in summary, unless you need the full details? of what really is stated there?

all things are permitted...(Paul):

Paul in context, look more closely. Paul was not stating that "everything" is permitted. If you need to look at that with me, I will gladly do so.

all foods are permitted (Peter), etc...

Peter never said all foods were permitted (neither Mark, inspite of the Jesuit translation which butchers the koine Greek, you need the KJB). We can look at Acts 10-11, etc as needful if you so desire. Everything that was unclean dietary or just abomination period, in the OT, is still such in the NT.

 

[74x12]

Nope, this is why I'm saying that resurrection means resurrection and not spiritual rebirth.

It's both.

Even God promises a time when He would give a foretaste of the eternal rest and the refreshing. (Isaiah 28:12)

That's what spiritual rebirth is. A foretaste or as Paul puts it: the "earnest of our inheritance". In other words the down payment on the full inheritance. (Ephesians 1:14)
Or the pledge of what is to come. (2 Corinthians 1:22)

Gentiles have NEVER been obligated to keep the Law of Moses. Some laws are universal, i.e. don't murder, don't steal, etc. But refraining from pork and shellfish? Keeping the Sabbath? Making sin offerings? No, my friends, non-Jews were never obligated, and so were never freed from any obligation. Remember how many times it is written, "And the LORD said, Speak to the Children of Israel," not to the World, not to the Nations.

True, but I'm not really talking about gentiles as much as Jews here.

As for us Jews, our covenant is everlasting. Nothing has changed. We still observe the 613 laws. In fact, if you read your Christian Scriptures carefully, you will find that the Jewish believers, including the apostles, all were "zealous for Torah." Acts 21:20

So they were (in the Jerusalem church at least) at the time. That doesn't mean there isn't more for them to learn. I am not saying that as a Christian a Jew couldn't keep the Torah; but as a Christian it's not necessary if you are submitting yourself to God then that is enough.

Because God even promised a time when "A Law" (A Torah) "will proceed from me" (Isaiah 51:4)
This is different than the Torah of Moses who is the mediator and the spokesman. Or you could even say that Moses is the judge of his own Law. While he lived he judged all matters of the Law.

But when God indeed comes to the throne Himself and sits on it; then the work of the regent is done. That regent is Moses of course. And so the Law proceeds from the King just as a king reigns when he is old enough and the regent steps aside.

That is why when God indeed truly reigns in your heart then the Law proceeds from within you and so as it is written:

"saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."

This is the true Torah that gives life.

Psalm 1:1 if you meditate in the Torah day and night then you'll be like a tree by a river that gives fruit in season. But ... if you have the Torah inside you; then you will be watered from within and so you will bear even much more fruit.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's both.

Even God promises a time when He would give a foretaste of the eternal rest and the refreshing. (Isaiah 28:12) (For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.)

Please. You are stretching things until they have broken. Just because we rest and can be refreshed in this life doesn't mean we expererience the resurrection.

That's what spiritual rebirth is. A foretaste or as Paul puts it: the "earnest of our inheritance". In other words the down payment on the full inheritance. (Ephesians 1:14)
Or the pledge of what is to come. (2 Corinthians 1:22)

These are Christian teachings, not the teachings of the Tanakh.

True, but I'm not really talking about gentiles as much as Jews here.

The covenant between God and us Jews doesn't disappear or get replaced. According to Genesis 17, it is everlasting.

So they were (in the Jerusalem church at least) at the time. That doesn't mean there isn't more for them to learn.

You don't think that on a matter of this importance that Jesus wouldn't have taught them?

 

[LAGoff]

Jesus never said it. The opposite testimony of Him was given in all the NT, and He Himself stated that He had kept the Father's commandments:

that "holy thing" [Luke 1:35]

and "holy child" [Acts 4:27,30]

"… But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none." [Matthew 26:60]

"... the innocent blood..." [Matthew 27:4]

"... For he knew that for envy they had delivered him. ..." [Matthew 27:18]

"… Have thou nothing to do with that just man …" [Matthew 27:19]

"… Why, what evil hath he done? …" [Matthew 27:23]

"… I am innocent of the blood of this just person …" [Matthew 27:24]

"The said Pilate … I find no fault in this man.” [Luke 23:4]

"… Said unto them, Ye have brought this man unto me, as one that perverteth the people: and, behold, I, having examined him before you, have found no fault in this man touching those things whereof ye accuse him:" [Luke 23:14]

"… what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him ..." [Luke 23:22]

"... lo, nothing worthy of death is done unto him." [Luke 23:15]

"... this man hath done nothing amiss." [Luke 23:41]

"… Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man." [Luke 23:47]

"Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?" [John 8:46]

"... I have kept my Father's commandments ..." [John 15:10]

"... I find in him no fault [at all]." [John 18:38]

"... I find no fault in him." [John 19:4]

"... I find no fault in him." [John 19:6]

"... the obedience of one ..." [Romans 5:19]

"... who knew no sin ..." [2 Corinthians 5:21]

"... without sin." [Hebrews 4:15]

"... [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners ..." [Hebrews 7:26]

"Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:" [1 Peter 2:22]

"... in him is no sin." [1 John 3:5]

"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God ..." [Hebrews 9:4;p]

Yes, Jesus referred to His Father, on numerous occasions, so many, I will not bother to list them here. Jesus does directly take up the name of His Father in quoting Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:17-18;

Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Upon the Cross, Jesus also quotes Psalms 22:1:

Mat_27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mar_15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

There is no need to doubt, at all.

Try to not switch objects midstream. It's either Jesus, or some people who claimed to follow Jesus. It's one or the other. The NT is real history, even as recorded by Luke.

For instance, Judas claimed to follow Jesus, and betrayed Him. Peter denied Him, as they all did. So, which target do you want to look at?

There is a certain truth to this statement, and not to be denied. Yet not all do, even as you yourself say, "majority", which is exactly what Jesus said:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Therefore, you admit there is another group in omission, that is not "majority". Why then reject the good with the bad?

 

[LAGoff]

Crosstian said: "Therefore, you admit there is another group in omission, that is not "majority". Why then reject the good with the bad?"

I assume you mean, why don't I follow the correct path-- your [narrow] path of doing the mitsvahs (the Tora commandments) and following Jesus as part of a Trinity?

Well, I'm going to answer you for now by saying that 'circumcised heart' (after the nation repents) is a term that is used in Deuteronomy 30. And I am not going to say I have it, but it could just mean something normal; something like, once you (pl.) try to 'repent', I'll (Jehova, through the community of Israel) help you (pl.) understand the foundation of what is going on in My Story. (so you can do what I need you to do)
If we normalize it like this, then we don't have to run to the NT, which 'souped-up' (de-normalised) the Scriptures.
I say 'we' (in the last sentence above), because I approach all people as if they haven't given Judaism a try long enough to reach the point at which 'repentance' leads to circumcision of the heart. Yes, narrow is the way, but there's still a way sanctioned by Jehova in Deuteronomy 30, if He graces us. So, we don't divorce Jehova (the jealous God), but put in the effort ('repentance') until He circumcises our hearts.

 

[roberto]

Gentiles have NEVER been obligated to keep the Law of Moses.

Talmud - Mas. Avodah Zarah 3a
The nations will then plead. ‘Offer us the Torah anew and we shall obey it.’ But the Holy One,
blessed be He, will say to them, ‘You foolish ones among peoples, he who took trouble [to prepare]
on the eve of the Sabbath can eat on the Sabbath, but he who has not troubled on the eve of the
Sabbath, what shall he eat on the Sabbath? Nevertheless, I have an easy command which is called
Sukkah; go and carry it out.

Anew = Again

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Talmud - Mas. Avodah Zarah 3a
The nations will then plead. ‘Offer us the Torah anew and we shall obey it.’ But the Holy One,
blessed be He, will say to them, ‘You foolish ones among peoples, he who took trouble [to prepare]
on the eve of the Sabbath can eat on the Sabbath, but he who has not troubled on the eve of the
Sabbath, what shall he eat on the Sabbath? Nevertheless, I have an easy command which is called
Sukkah; go and carry it out.

Anew = Again

There is a midrash that Hashem offered the Torah to every nation, but Israel was the only nation to accept it. So it follows that because they did not accept it, they are not bound by it. Here is the story on the Orthodox Union's website:

Offering the Torah to the Nations - Jewish Holidays

“Hashem Came from Mt. Sinai – Having Shone Forth from Mt. Seir, and Appeared at Mt. Paran” (Devarim 33:2)

Flags of the Nations of the WorldLest the nations of the World complain that Hashem was unfair in not offering the Torah to the rest of the world, Hashem did in fact offer it to all the other nations of the world, and was turned down by all.

Hashem first offered it to the descendants of Esav, who lived in the area of Mt. Seir, in accordance with the inheritance that Hashem had given them. When he offered them the Torah, they asked, “What are its laws?” When Hashem told them that one of its laws was “You shall not murder,” they said, “How can we accept the Torah? That law goes against our very nature, as Yitzchak said to our father, Esav, “And you will live by the Sword!” (Beresh it 27:40)

He next offered it to Amon and Moav, who likewise turned it down. They asked, “What are the laws of the Torah?” When they heard that immorality was one of its main prohibitions, they said, “Our national origins are bound up with a story of immorality between Lot’s daughters and their sleeping father. (Beresh it 19:30-38) Immorality has become part and parcel of our national character.

When he offered it to the descendants of Yishmael, they could not then, and they cannot now, deal with the prohibition against stealing (Vayikra 19:11), as the Angel of the L-rd said to our mother Hagar about our ancestor, Yishmael, “He will be a person without self-control, with his hand in everyone else’s property, and everyone else’s hand in his property, and he will camp on the borders of everyone else’s land.” (Beresh it 15:12)

It was only when He offered the Torah to the Jewish People that He found a Nation with the potential to live according to all the laws of the Torah. And they realized this potential by saying to Hashem, “Naaseh V’nishma, “We will first obey, and then understand,” (Shemot 23:7), when He offered them His holy Torah.

 

[roberto]

There is a midrash that Hashem offered the Torah to every nation, but Israel was the only nation to accept it. So it follows that because they did not accept it, they are not bound by it. Here is the story on the Orthodox Union's website:

Offering the Torah to the Nations - Jewish Holidays

“Hashem Came from Mt. Sinai – Having Shone Forth from Mt. Seir, and Appeared at Mt. Paran” (Devarim 33:2)

Flags of the Nations of the WorldLest the nations of the World complain that Hashem was unfair in not offering the Torah to the rest of the world, Hashem did in fact offer it to all the other nations of the world, and was turned down by all.

Hashem first offered it to the descendants of Esav, who lived in the area of Mt. Seir, in accordance with the inheritance that Hashem had given them. When he offered them the Torah, they asked, “What are its laws?” When Hashem told them that one of its laws was “You shall not murder,” they said, “How can we accept the Torah? That law goes against our very nature, as Yitzchak said to our father, Esav, “And you will live by the Sword!” (Beresh it 27:40)

He next offered it to Amon and Moav, who likewise turned it down. They asked, “What are the laws of the Torah?” When they heard that immorality was one of its main prohibitions, they said, “Our national origins are bound up with a story of immorality between Lot’s daughters and their sleeping father. (Beresh it 19:30-38) Immorality has become part and parcel of our national character.

When he offered it to the descendants of Yishmael, they could not then, and they cannot now, deal with the prohibition against stealing (Vayikra 19:11), as the Angel of the L-rd said to our mother Hagar about our ancestor, Yishmael, “He will be a person without self-control, with his hand in everyone else’s property, and everyone else’s hand in his property, and he will camp on the borders of everyone else’s land.” (Beresh it 15:12)

It was only when He offered the Torah to the Jewish People that He found a Nation with the potential to live according to all the laws of the Torah. And they realized this potential by saying to Hashem, “Naaseh V’nishma, “We will first obey, and then understand,” (Shemot 23:7), when He offered them His holy Torah.

Very interesting IndigoChild5559

Please note that Torah will once again be offered and they (the Nations) will be bound by it when the King comes.

By the way, when the Torah was offered at Mt Sinai to ISRAEL, there were those of mixed blood(Egyptions, slaves etc) that also accepted Torah.

These Egyptians and slaves had children during the 40years which entered the Promised land with and inclusive of Israel(All 12 tribes), not only the Jews as you state.

Jews are but one tribe of the twelve sons of Jacob.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Very interesting IndigoChild5559

Please note that Torah will once again be offered and they (the Nations) will be bound by it when the King comes.

By the way, when the Torah was offered at Mt Sinai to ISRAEL, there were those of mixed blood(Egyptions, slaves etc) that also accepted Torah.

These Egyptians and slaves had children during the 40years which entered the Promised land with and inclusive of Israel(All 12 tribes), not only the Jews as you state.

Jews are but one tribe of the twelve sons of Jacob.

The nations never were ever bound by the Torah in the first place. The Chinese have never had to keep kosher. Africans have never had to keep Shabbat. They never had the covenant that Hashem made with Israel at Sinai.

Yes, there was a mixed multitude of Egyptians that were adopted into Israel. Israel is a tribal people. There has ALWAYS been the option of people saying "Let your people be my people and your God be my God," meaning both an ethnic and religious conversion. Thus, the mixed multutude did not stay Egyptian, but became Israelite, and came under the 613 when it was offered to Israel.

You too have the option to become a Jew, and take upon yourself the covenant of Israel. It is not necessary. No one needs to be a Jew. But fr those who are drawn to it, the choice is there.