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Deuteronomy 13:1-6?

calm

Active Member
These six verses for me are spot on and lead me to reject Christianity, even verse 3 where I know you will say that it doesn't apply because Jesus never actually said "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," and he was probably talking about Jehova (though he only said my/our Father), but I read the Tora passage in light of what actually happened in real history where the vast majority of Christians are in effect worshiping/following other gods because they don't observe Jehova's laws and-- especially in the case of Catholic and Orthodox Christians -- they have added observances which clearly fall into the "which you have not known" category such as Trinity, eating pig (which is big in the Bible Belt, even on the Day of Atonement), shellfish, etc.(i.e. the ritual laws), Sunday worship, Mary veneration, communion (drinking Jesus' blood and body), infant baptism, etc..

1.Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
2.If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3.and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
4.you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
5.You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
6.And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst. Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh)
The Trinity is biblical and therefore it is not something we "do not know".
(And what is wrong with a Sunday worship?)
The old law was fulfilled by Jesus and therefore no longer has to be kept. So it is no problem to eat pigs.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
These six verses for me are spot on and lead me to reject Christianity, even verse 3 where I know you will say that it doesn't apply because Jesus never actually said "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," and he was probably talking about Jehova (though he only said my/our Father), but I read the Tora passage in light of what actually happened in real history where the vast majority of Christians are in effect worshiping/following other gods because they don't observe Jehova's laws and-- especially in the case of Catholic and Orthodox Christians -- they have added observances which clearly fall into the "which you have not known" category such as Trinity, eating pig (which is big in the Bible Belt, even on the Day of Atonement), shellfish, etc.(i.e. the ritual laws), Sunday worship, Mary veneration, communion (drinking Jesus' blood and body), infant baptism, etc..

1.Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
2.If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3.and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
4.you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
5.You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
6.And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst. Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh)

You're rejecting a religion that hasn't happened yet (at the time of the writing of these six verses) based on thar little amount? Sounds like you were gonna do it anyway. It also sounds like you probably don't understand the premise of Christianity.

Christianity is not about Jesus. Lemme say that again, because alot of Christians think Christianity is about Jesus. Christianity is is not about Jesus.

What is Christianity about? "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son to the end that all who believe in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Christianity is about the grace provided by Jesus, not Jesus himself.

Jewish law is telling people to reject any prophet that says "Let us go after other gods" but this is assuming that Jesus worshipped a god other than God. You can clearly see from his observance of Passover and many other Jewish festivals this is not the case. So what is the case? That Jews have made their Law an idol, that gets in the way of the actual word of God. Jesus came and often quoted other prophets such as Isaiah and Ezekiel and Hosea. The Jews ignored him and so ignored all their other prophets to worship the Law as though it were God.

Here's an example from the NT. The Pharisees and such ask Jesus (to trap him) whether it was lawful to pay taxes to Caesar. If he said yes, he would lose his crowd (and they could probably quietly remove him). If he said no, they could have Romans arrest him. Instead, Jesus did something that showed where his true alliance (and those of his accusers) were. He asked them for the coin. This was a ROMAN rather than Jewish coin, so as a Jew loyal to God, he did not have it (neither did most of the crowd, they had to get their tax money converted). Most people there had Jewish shekels not Roman denarii. Yet, despite the denarii being an actual profane object within the Temple, they readily produced this, showing that they had become rich from dealings with the Romans. Jesus had won without saying much of anything. Yet he asked "whose image (" you shall worship no graven image") and inscription (Shema Yisrael, mentions inscribing ths name of the Lord on your house) is on the coin? " One of these men served God. The others were false leaders.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Hosea 11:1 is about Israel.. Israel is God's son that he loves and brought out of Egypt.. Its a reference to the Exodus. Jesus was never in Egypt. Matthew made that up.
It's a reference to the Exodus but it's also about Jesus. You don't seem to understand that prophecies can do that.

How do you know Matthew made that up? It seems quite believable to me that Joseph would flee to Egypt if Herod was going to kill the babies.
Isaiah 49:6 is about Israel being a light unto the gentiles.. No mention of the messiah.
Jesus is Israel and the only real light to the Gentiles.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
No, they are not. Read about the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31 thru 34. No mention of resurrection.
Does everything have to be mentioned? I came to the conclusion the new Covenant is the resurrection through study of all scriptures. Not from just one passage like you are looking at.
 

LAGoff

Member
"I think you have the idea that YHWH is a God who is far removed from this world and is a single being,"
No, I don't think that Jehova is far removed. I can't love a God who is far removed-- even with all my heart soul and might (which we are commanded to do-- Dt 6:5)
He created me and disposes of me as He wishes in every moment and even to every atom in the universe (see the spooky action of the quantum world).
Jehova is a jealous God who says He is 'one'. Jealousy is what a lover feels toward his beloved, which is how Jehova acts towards Israel, and we are asked to respond in kind (see Song of Songs), which is what I am doing here when anything comes between you(pl.) and Jehova. It hurts and I am jealous/zealous for Jehova.
As far as Jehova being one- a single being? I do and I don't hold that at the same time. The simultaneous transcendence and immanence of God is well known and accepted among Jews. So in light of this dance of transcendence/immanence I see Jehova's 'oneness' as meaning that we are to become one with Him by bringing Him down to earth, as in Exod. 25:8: "Make(pl.) Me a mishkhan (tabernacle/DWELLING- place) and I will DWELL (shakhanti- same root as mishkhon -- ShKhN) among/in/with you(pl.)
This is what the mitsvas ('commandments') are all about. Jehova wants to dwell here 'below' and my sticking up for Him here is just one way of bringing Jehova into the world so I and you (pl.) can become 'one' with Him as Jews have for millenia.
 
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LAGoff

Member
[QUOTE from Wizanda] "Yeshua Elohim's father is the God Most High (Luke 1:32, Luke 6:35)...

As Malachi 4:4-6 stated the Lord came to turn the hearts of the Children back to the Father (El Elyon - God Most High).

The problem is Jews no longer recognize that 'El (Source) is not like the Elohim (Divine Beings)' (Isaiah 46:9) since the Babylonian Exile...

Where they've tried to remove any form of polytheism, having seen the Canaanite Pantheon worshipped as demigods.

Thus we need to check the original theological structure: Isaiah 46:9 paraphrased Deuteronomy 32:7-9, where El Elyon separated the nations among the Elohim, and gave Israel to Yahavah Elohim.

When Yeshua prayed Eli Eli, people thought he meant Elijah as they no longer understood that is 'My God', where Elohi is 'My Divine Being'.

It states in Deuteronomy 32:15 that the Jews in later times will have rejected the Rock of their Salvation (Yeshua).

The Lord said he would become our Salvation in Exodus 15:2, Psalms 118, Isaiah 12:2, Isaiah 52:10, etc..

So Yeshua in the Synoptic Gospels was correcting Judaism back to what the Bible stated; Christianity with its false christ (G5580) jesus (H5580) came about after by the Pharisees: John, Paul, and Simon the stone Petros).

Take into account all of this deception was prophesied to happen in Isaiah 8, Zechariah 5, Habakkuk 2, etc...

It is all very clever, as comprehending it leads to Salvation (Yeshua).

In my opinion." :innocent:[/QUOTE from Wizanda]


Well, you seem like someone I'd like to talk to. I am for 'oneness' too, but I don't like the direct 'zen' approach. The Story (the Tora- Pentateuch), which is probably largely made up, provides me with enough separation to make me reconsider my 'zen-only' first, logical, meditation only approach. Within this Story (the non logical) there are laws/commandments (mitsvot- which is from the root TsVH, to 'join' [with God in oneness]) which concretizes a more cozy/personal/sweet/non-logical approach to God in that in order to observe these mitsvas with joy, I leave the El/Elohim/'the All'/ God-the-most-high/El Elyon airy, abstract and impersonal and enter into a unique form of 'oneness' ("Jehova is one") that personalizes God/El/Elohim/Eloha/El- Elyon (all generic names of Jehova, like saying my lover is a homo sapien instead of her name) so I become devoted to the personal, jealous God named Jehova who also (according to The Story) is the one and only God who I am commanded ('mitsvahd'- en-joined) to love with all my heart, soul and might.

Tonight is Yom Kippur where we fast. I would not fast (no food or water) and I certainly wouldn't leave a note on a car I hit on a dark and rainy night without this Story (where we are introduced to Jehova and His mitsvahs). This is good and sweet and leads me to say without hesitation that it (The Story) is from Him.
 
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Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Thanks. I am reading these other verses. I do know that the Christians data-mine.



Well, you seem like someone I'd like to talk to. I am for 'oneness' too, but I don't like the direct 'zen' approach. The Story (the Tora- Pentateuch), which is probably largely made up, provides me with enough separation to make me reconsider my 'zen-only' first, logical, meditation only approach. Within this Story (the non logical) there are laws/commandments (mitsvot- which is from the root TsVH, to 'join' [with God in oneness]) which concretizes a more cozy/personal/sweet/non-logical approach to God in that in order to observe these mitsvas with joy, I leave the El/Elohim/'the All'/ God-the-most-high/El Elyon airy, abstract and impersonal and enter into a unique form of 'oneness' ("Jehova is one") that personalizes God/El/Elohim/Eloha/El- Elyon (all generic names of Jehova, like saying my lover is a homo sapien instead of her name) so I become devoted to the personal, jealous God named Jehova who also (according to The Story) is the one and only God who I am commanded ('mitsvahd'- en-joined) to love with all my heart, soul and might.

Tonight is Yom Kippur where we fast. I would not fast (no food or water) and I certainly wouldn't leave a note on a car I hit on a dark and rainy night without this Story (where we are introduced to Jehova and His mitsvahs). This is good and sweet and leads me to say without hesitation that it (The Story) is from Him.

I am really not into this kind of abstraction. Life is confusing enough without muddying the waters.
 

LAGoff

Member
I am really not into this kind of abstraction. Life is confusing enough without muddying the waters.

Sorry. I was really responding to Wizanda in the main body of that post and accidentally appended the top sentence (which was a thanks to you) to my response to Wizanda.
But it is interesting (since you have Buddhists in your picture) that I was describing in my post to Wizanda (that you 'accidentally' got) how my bitter attempt to 'grok' the All (through various schemes including Zen and Buddhism may have led me back to my heritage (Judaism)
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
So you are saying Deut.13 doesn't apply because Jesus is the word of God?
So 'the Word' said "eat my flesh and drink my blood"? This can't be justified from the OT, let alone the Tora.


There are only a few books in the Bible that I consider without error, in totality. This means without
• translation error
• something that does not provide a method for non obfuscation, ie interpretation problem
• translation correlation error, ie one book referencing another, in a form of error
• possible added verses
• possible authorship error

None of the nt books meet all these requirements, for my religious beliefs, and only a few of the ot books, do, with allowances. This doesn't mean that other books are 'written off', it just means they may not meet the requirements, in totality.

That being said, there's some context, the verse actually seems like he is saying remember through this ceremony, not a literalism like some churches make it. A verse comparison would be necessary to determine that, however.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
It's a reference to the Exodus but it's also about Jesus. You don't seem to understand that prophecies can do that.

How do you know Matthew made that up? It seems quite believable to me that Joseph would flee to Egypt if Herod was going to kill the babies.

Jesus is Israel and the only real light to the Gentiles.

Because there was no census and Herod didn't kill any babies. Jesus had NOTHING to do with Gentiles.. He was a Jew and he preached to the Jews.

Fact is that Herod was probably already dead when Jesus was born. Herod Antipas was ruler over Galilee, but even though the NT calls him King Herod he was never a king.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
Josephus says that Jesus had both jewish and greek followers.

'Gentile', means nations, and could include jews.(ethnesin
Romans 2:24

Maybe.. Josephus exaggerates so much.. Jesus spent much of his ministry around Galilee and the Decapolis which sort of kept him safe from the Sanhedrin... Herod Antipas didn't seem to bother him. But, you know Judah really despised Israel... they considered them Hellenized half breeds.. and Israel was more prosperous than Judah so there's that.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Maybe.. Josephus exaggerates so much.. Jesus spent much of his ministry around Galilee and the Decapolis which sort of kept him safe from the Sanhedrin... Herod Antipas didn't seem to bother him. But, you know Judah really despised Israel... they considered them Hellenized half breeds.. and Israel was more prosperous than Judah so there's that.
I think we need more context, here.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
These six verses for me are spot on and lead me to reject Christianity, even verse 3 where I know you will say that it doesn't apply because Jesus never actually said "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them," and he was probably talking about Jehova (though he only said my/our Father), but I read the Tora passage in light of what actually happened in real history where the vast majority of Christians are in effect worshiping/following other gods because they don't observe Jehova's laws and-- especially in the case of Catholic and Orthodox Christians -- they have added observances which clearly fall into the "which you have not known" category such as Trinity, eating pig (which is big in the Bible Belt, even on the Day of Atonement), shellfish, etc.(i.e. the ritual laws), Sunday worship, Mary veneration, communion (drinking Jesus' blood and body), infant baptism, etc..

1.Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.
2.If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
3.and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"
4.you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.
5.You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.
6.And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst. Devarim - Deuteronomy - Chapter 13 (Parshah Re'eh)
I don't know why this would lead you to Chrisitanity.
  1. The Christian scriptures make a god out of Jesus and say to follow him. This passage says to beware of false prophets who tell you to follow other gods.
  2. The Christian Scriptures, especially Paul, say that salvation is a matter of faith, not following the commandments. This passage says to follow the Lord and keep his commandments.
Indeed, the passage says to put the false prophet who teaches these things to death. So I guess you know what to do with Paul and the others, even if it is only a figurative death in your heart.

Remember that the Torah was given by God through Moses to Israel. Align yourself with Israel. You don't have to become a Jew of course -- it's fine if you become a righteous Gentile, an ethical monotheist. Of course, should you really want to become a Jew, that option is open as well.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
'Gentile', means nations, and could include jews.(ethnesin
Romans 2:24
Though we Jews certainly live in the nations, and can even be citizens, we are always apart. We are always the People of Israel, a nation set apart, a priestly people. Thus, the word Gentile NEVER applies to us. There is Israel, and there are the nations. There is no overlap.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I don't know why this would lead you to Chrisitanity.
  1. The Christian scriptures make a god out of Jesus and say to follow him. This passage says to beware of false prophets who tell you to follow other gods.
  2. The Christian Scriptures, especially Paul, say that salvation is a matter of faith, not following the commandments. This passage says to follow the Lord and keep his commandments.
Indeed, the passage says to put the false prophet who teaches these things to death. So I guess you know what to do with Paul and the others, even if it is only a figurative death in your heart.

Remember that the Torah was given by God through Moses to Israel. Align yourself with Israel. You don't have to become a Jew of course -- it's fine if you become a righteous Gentile, an ethical monotheist. Of course, should you really want to become a Jew, that option is open as well.
His first sentence says "lead me to reject Christianity".
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Though we Jews certainly live in the nations, and can even be citizens, we are always apart. We are always the People of Israel, a nation set apart, a priestly people. Thus, the word Gentile NEVER applies to us. There is Israel, and there are the nations. There is no overlap.
That's not why the word gentile doesn't apply to Jews. It doesn't apply to Jews because it's original contextual use modern colloquial meaning is someone who isn't a Jew. A Jew isn't someone who isn't a Jew.

Conversely, one of the words it often comes to translate is "goy". A Jew can be a goy - and the Torah calls the Jewish nation "goy" as well. Except in it's colloquial meaning where again it means gentile, in which case as above.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
I don't know why this would lead you to Chrisitanity.
  1. The Christian scriptures make a god out of Jesus and say to follow him. This passage says to beware of false prophets who tell you to follow other gods.
  2. The Christian Scriptures, especially Paul, say that salvation is a matter of faith, not following the commandments. This passage says to follow the Lord and keep his commandments.
Indeed, the passage says to put the false prophet who teaches these things to death. So I guess you know what to do with Paul and the others, even if it is only a figurative death in your heart.

Remember that the Torah was given by God through Moses to Israel. Align yourself with Israel. You don't have to become a Jew of course -- it's fine if you become a righteous Gentile, an ethical monotheist. Of course, should you really want to become a Jew, that option is open as well.
Paul says a lot more than just salvation by faith. In fact it says "by grace through faith". The difference being that grace is unmerited favor of God. And faith is what saves you because it leads you to obey God's will. For it is expected of everyone who really believes that they obey. And if they don't obey then how can they say I believed?

Once you're in the resurrection then you aren't under the Law of Moses whether you're Jew or gentile. Because you died to the Law and live to God. As Paul points out.

The Law is superfluous if you are already risen from the dead. Because the Law was made for those who are alive in this present world. But --in the new Covenant-- you are risen (in spirit) to be with God. And you are from then on; in the world yes but not of it. Passing through as messengers of the goodness of God.

So the new Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) is the resurrection from the dead. That's what many have missed and what God has revealed.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Paul says a lot more than just salvation by faith. In fact it says "by grace through faith". The difference being that grace is unmerited favor of God. And faith is what saves you because it leads you to obey God's will. For it is expected of everyone who really believes that they obey. And if they don't obey then how can they say I believed?

Once you're in the resurrection then you aren't under the Law of Moses whether you're Jew or gentile. Because you died to the Law and live to God. As Paul points out.

The Law is superfluous if you are already risen from the dead. Because the Law was made for those who are alive in this present world. But --in the new Covenant-- you are risen (in spirit) to be with God. And you are from then on; in the world yes but not of it. Passing through as messengers of the goodness of God.

So the new Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34) is the resurrection from the dead. That's what many have missed and what God has revealed.
You're NOT risen from the dead. Sheesh.
 
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