Deuteronomy 13:1-6?

[roberto]

You too have the option to become a Jew, and take upon yourself the covenant of Israel. It is not necessary. No one needs to be a Jew. But fr those who are drawn to it, the choice is there.

Like the Noahides? Who then become JewISH.

There is a different path than following the Noahide path to become an Israelite for those that do not want to become JewISH.

Let me......>

Eze 37:16 You, son of man, take one stick, and write on it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions(Noahides).........

take another stick, and write on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions(Israelites)............

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Like the Noahides? Who then become JewISH.

There is a different path than following the Noahide path to become an Israelite for those that do not want to become JewISH.

Let me......>

Eze 37:16 You, son of man, take one stick, and write on it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions(Noahides).........

take another stick, and write on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions(Israelites)............

No, I was not referring to Noahides, thought that is certainly another option. Noahides believe what Judaism teaches and are ethical, but they do not say, "Let your people be my people." They are not converts in the same sense that Ruth was, in that they do not become part of b'nei Yisrael, the Children of Israel. That was not true of the mixed multitude. They became part of the People, and in doing so, they also took on themselves the covenant. Noahides are not bound by covenant between God and Israel. They do not have to eat kosher or keep shabbat, for example.

But certainly you do have the option to be Noahide. Like I said in my last post, there is no reason for you to become a Jew. Being an ethical monotheist is just fine. Becoming a Jew and taking up the 613 is simply a choice that exists.

FYI, a Noahide and an Israelite are never the same thing, so you are confused in your understanding of Ezekiel 37. The Israelites in verse 16 are not Noahides. A Noahide is BY DEFINITION someone of one of the nations OTHER THAN Israel, who comes to believe in the God of Abraham and agrees to act righteously (aka to abide by the Noahide laws, not the Mosaic laws). If a person is b'nei Yisrael, of ANY of the twelve tribes, he is bound by his covenant to obey all 613 of the Laws--that obligation is on him whether he wants it or accepts it or not.

 

[roberto]

, so you are confused in your understanding of Ezekiel 37.

Not only am I confused by Ezekiel 37 as you indicate, I'm also confused by the rendering of who is who in the Talmud ;

I guess it all depends which goggles/glasses you put on in the morning You see, we from the Nations do not see things as you guys do from your perspective of Talmud.

I use the Tanach in basically two levels of reading; Pashat, Hebrew for simple and Remez, Hebrew for Hint other than that I get a bit drowsy

But here below are a few Talmud quotes, you could perhaps help me with as many of them seem to contradict what is preached as a given from Jewish persons.

It is permissible for Noahides to consume blood that came from animals.

Talmud - Mas. Pesachim 22b
How do we know that a man must not hold out a cup of wine to a nazirite or the limb of a living animal to the children of Noah? 3 Because it is stated, thou shalt not put a stumbling-block before the blind. 4...>(4) Lev. XIX. 14. This is understood metaphorically: do not lead anyone to sin.

Talmud - Mas. Yevamoth 23a
(20) A heathen is under no obligation to observe the precepts of the Torah.
..............
Talmud - Mas. Yevamoth 23a
Does this imply that Rabina is of the opinion that if a heathen or a slave had intercourse with a daughter of Israel the child is considered fit! 29 -Though he is admittedly no ******* neither is he considered fit; he is rather regarded 30 as a tainted Israelite. 31
...............................
Talmud - Mas. Yevamoth 45b
when an idolater or a slave has intercourse with a daughter of an Israelite, the child [born of such a union] is legitimate. 33
..............................

Talmud - Mas. Yevamoth 46a
Our Rabbis taught: ‘If a proselyte was circumcised but had not performed the prescribed ritual ablution, R. Eliezer said, ‘Behold he is a proper proselyte; for so we find that our forefathers 52 were circumcised and had not performed ritual ablution’...>>(52) Those who departed from Egypt as heathens and received the Torah on Mount Sinai when they were, so to speak, converted to Judaism.

Talmud - Mas. Sanhedrin 56b
The Israelites were given ten precepts at Marah, seven of which had already been accepted by the children of Noah, to which were added at Marah social laws ,the Sabbath, and honouring one's parents......for it is written, There [sc. at Marah] he made for them a statute and an
ordinance; 18 ..>(18) Ex. XV, 25. Ordinance (Heb. mishpat) refers to social law.

Talmud - Mas. Yevamoth 16b
surely,anything separated [from a heterogeneous group] is re garded as having been separated from the majority! 18...>(18) I.e., if it is not known to which group or class a person or object that comes from a mixed multitude belongs, it is always assumed that the unit came from the majority. Now, since the ten tribes represent only a minority of the heathens, it should be assumed that the betrothal was not made by one of the ten tribes but by a heathen.

(The Majority rule now declares a possible Israelite a Heathen). Hmmmnnnn, I was always taught never to ass_ume as it makes an *** out of you and me.

Perfect Heathens? ;
Talmud - Mas. Yevamoth 17a
From this it may be inferred that thy daughter's son born from [a union with] a heathen is called thy son’! 16...>(16) V. infra 23a. The children of such unions, then, being deemed Israelites though unfit, should have the right of betrothal. How then could Samuel contend that they are deemed to be perfect heathens?

Talmud - Mas. Mo'ed Katan 12a
(23) The Samaritans who, when friendly, were treated as observant Jews, and when hostile and making common cause with the heathens in persecuting Jews and jeering at their religious practices, were treated as heathens. The attitude towards them, therefore, varied from time to time, according to circumstances.(depends which glasses you have on)

Talmud - Mas. Chagigah 13a
The teachings of the Torah are not to be transmitted to an idolater, 26..>(26)..Dicta of this kind were directed against heathens, and were inspired by the fear lest the knowledge of the Torah be unscrupulously used against Jews.

And lastly but not least, I think Moses got it right(had on the right glasses/specticals that day)

Num 11:28 Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his chosen men, answered, “My lord Moses, forbid them!”
Num 11:29 Moses said to him, “Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD’s people were prophets, that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!”

As you can see, IndigoChild5559 ; your telling me I am confused made me study Talmud !

May you be blessed by Hashem.

 

[moorea944]

And how about (Deut. 18:15-19)? Is that spot-on also?

Good-Ole-Rebel

I love Deut 18. Talks about a coming Messiah who will be like us. God will be working through him. He will do his father' s will. This is farthest away from the trinity as you can get!!! It doesnt talk about someone who is already here, pre-existance, or co-equal. It's a future prophecy about someone to come. Beautiful verses!!! Thank you for sharing.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I love Deut 18. Talks about a coming Messiah who will be like us. God will be working through him. He will do his father' s will. This is farthest away from the trinity as you can get!!! It doesnt talk about someone who is already here, pre-existance, or co-equal. It's a future prophecy about someone to come. Beautiful verses!!! Thank you for sharing.

You're quite welcome. Makes you wonder how they missed Him.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Not only am I confused by Ezekiel 37 as you indicate, I'm also confused by the rendering of who is who in the Talmud ;

Haven't I said all along that one option is for a Gentile to become a Jew (part of b'nei Yisrael)?? It is not necessary -- there is no reason for it. But it is there for those willing to say, "Let your people be my people and your God be my God." It involves three things: circumcision (for men), approval by a beit din (Jewish tribunal), and ritual immersion in a mikvah. This is done after a LONG period of study in the laws, culture, history, and Hebrew.

I guess it all depends which goggles/glasses you put on in the morning You see, we from the Nations do not see things as you guys do from your perspective of Talmud.

After reviewing your quotes from the Talmud, the two things that strike me are:
1. How much difficulty you are having understanding the Talmud. This is why it is said never to read the Talmud alone -- sir, you need the help of a scholar to assist you. Please do not continue reading it on your own.
2. How these quotes do not impact the central theme of of Gentiles, and whether they can be Israelites, and whether they need to observe the 613 commandment.
Let's review:

It is permissible

for Noahides to consume blood that came from animals.

Talmud - Mas. Pesachim 22b
How do we know that a man must not hold out a cup of wine to a nazirite or the limb of a living animal to the children of Noah? 3 Because it is stated, thou shalt not put a stumbling-block before the blind. 4...>(4) Lev. XIX. 14. This is understood metaphorically: do not lead anyone to sin.

You are having problems here with basic reading comprehension. I'm sure if you reread, you will say "Ah ha!" Basically if you say "not X or Y" it means "Not Y." Therefore the sentence reads "How do we know that a man must not hold out a ...limb of a living animal to the children of Noah?"

Not eating the limb of a living animal is one of the seven laws of Noah. Are you familiar with those seven laws? If so, I'll quote them for you. There is overlap with the 613, but of course, only seven of them.

Talmud - Mas. Yevamoth 23a
(20) A heathen is under no obligation to observe the precepts of the Torah.

Right. A Gentile does not need to i.e. keep kosher or observe the sabbath. They only need to observe the seven Noachide categories of law, such as not killing or stealing or comitting sexual crimes.

Talmud - Mas. Yevamoth 23a
Does this imply that Rabina is of the opinion that if a heathen or a slave had intercourse with a daughter of Israel the child is considered fit! 29 -Though he is admittedly no ******* neither is he considered fit; he is rather regarded 30 as a tainted Israelite.

Right. Jewish identity passes from the mother. It doesn't matter who the father is. If Hitler had had a child by a Jewish woman, the child would have been a Jew.

Talmud - Mas. Yevamoth 45b
when an idolater or a slave has intercourse with a daughter of an Israelite, the child [born of such a union] is legitimate.

Same

Talmud - Mas. Yevamoth 46a
Our Rabbis taught: ‘If a proselyte was circumcised but had not performed the prescribed ritual ablution, R. Eliezer said, ‘Behold he is a proper proselyte; for so we find that our forefathers 52 were circumcised and had not performed ritual ablution’...>>(52) Those who departed from Egypt as heathens and received the Torah on Mount Sinai when they were, so to speak, converted to Judaism.

All this means is that a convert is a convert if he is circumcized, even if he hasn't (yet) been immersed in the mikvah. Of course, this is the ritual circumcision by a mohel, not just any circumcision i.e. not a circumcision in a hospital or a circumcision by a Christian wanting to be part of Israel but remain Christian.

BTW, I'm not sure if this is true anymore. I suspect that you now have to have all three, circumcision (for men), immersion, and approval by the beit din. But I could be wrong. You'd have to ask someone more knowledgeable than me.

Talmud - Mas. Sanhedrin 56b
The Israelites were given ten precepts at Marah, seven of which had already been accepted by the children of Noah, to which were added at Marah social laws ,the Sabbath, and honouring one's parents......for it is written, There [sc. at Marah] he made for them a statute and an
ordinance; 18 ..>(18) Ex. XV, 25. Ordinance (Heb. mishpat) refers to social law.

Is there something about this that you don't understand? It's just saying that there is overlap, that seven of the ten commandments that you as a Gentile are obligated to obey, and three that you aren't.

Talmud - Mas. Yevamoth 16b
surely,anything separated [from a heterogeneous group] is re garded as having been separated from the majority! 18...>(18) I.e., if it is not known to which group or class a person or object that comes from a mixed multitude belongs, it is always assumed that the unit came from the majority. Now, since the ten tribes represent only a minority of the heathens, it should be assumed that the betrothal was not made by one of the ten tribes but by a heathen.

What is your point? This is just plain common sense. If two percent of Israelites, and 98% are not, do you think we should assume they are all Israelites? I mean you have to assume one way or the other.

I could go on, but I'm not going to. You are essentially dumping. It means your technique is to so overwhelm your interlocuter that they get lost in answering you. I'm not going to fall for that. I've answered enough.

You need to choose a FEW of your BEST points to list, and stop dumping. I don't think all of these were really points... I suspect that you actually did understand but perhaps pretended not to. That actually, you gave me busywork to do, which is not the same as a good argument.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You're quite welcome. Makes you wonder how they missed Him.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Deut. 18:15-19) is about Joshua, not the messiah.

 

[roberto]

Please do not continue reading it on your own.

Surely would need one of the "Qualified" Rabbis to assist

Talmud - Mas. Chagigah 13a
The teachings of the Torah are not to be transmitted to an idolater, 26..>(26)..Dicta of this kind were directed against heathens, and were inspired by the fear lest the knowledge of the Torah be unscrupulously used against Jews

Of course, this is the ritual circumcision by a mohel

Surely needs to be a "Qualified" mohel

IndigoChild5559", As I said in my posting :>"....You see, we from the Nations do not see things as you guys do from your perspective of Talmud..."

But thank you anyhow for your time in trying to "answer" me.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Surely would need one of the "Qualified" Rabbis to assist

There are others besides Rabbis. You'd be surprised how advanced some of these Yeshiva students are.

The point is, you are making a mistake trying to understand it on your own. Even after I warned you, you went and quoted more. Please stop doing this. You don't know what you are doing.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Deut. 18:15-19) is about Joshua, not the messiah.

Not so. (Deut. 34:9-10) cf (Deut. 18:15)

Good-Ole-Rebel