Debate the Logic of a World Order.

[TransmutingSoul]

Oy, yes, I forgot, the number of votes per nation ideally should be proportionate to the number of people in nation. That's ideally proposed, but it could turn out differently in practice, like it did in the US. The House of Representatives has the number of delegates proportional to the population of that state, but the Senate has two person state. That was a difficult compromise between populous states and smaller states. It almost didn't get ratified.

Also consider that it is offered that minorities will bet a stronger voice than before.

Regards Tony

 

[Mock Turtle]

I personally think that trying to unite humanity under a centralized faith, polity, culture, language... anything is not only an exercise in futility, I'm not even sure whether such a thing would be desirable in the first place. Part of what I find great about human culture and human civilization as a whole is its diversity of ideas, lifestyles, beliefs etc. It can certainly be a detriment in many cases, and often lead to conflict.

But I believe that we might achieve something greater if we manage to square the circle of creating peace and harmony between the many different groups and individuals that make up humankind, while maintaining our diversity and individualism.

I don't know about others but that is not how I see any possible world government or world order. It's more about having an authority - and an elected one at that - that could take any major decisions required when only a unified approach to such would work. This being as to only be taking those decisions necessary for the well-being of the planet and all life on it, and not just all humans. Hence cultures and all the rest would be respected although some of the rougher edges, as displayed by the Taliban for example, would have to go. So more a consensus view of how we should live hopefully developing. It's just unfortunate that we can't have both equality and freedom (as an aim even) for all when some don't want such, but the former should override the latter. If it were possible to deal with problems that we might face in the future without such world control then I wouldn't advocate for such, but I just doubt it is possible to do so.

We do tend, as a species, to not look too far into the future, such that our problems are all too often on us and amongst us due to lack of foresight - some examples being: our wanton use of plastics without having a suitable recycling scheme to cope with damage to the environment and the longevity of these; the space debris that is accumulating in space and which might threaten future space travel; global warming; uncontrolled population growth, etc.

Perhaps we can cope with these, and other threats, without any sort of world government or world order but I think the benefits of having such might mean it is better to have one.

 

[Aupmanyav]

On the security council, only one vote cans whatever they want to do. We propose an assembly that represents all nations, unlike the security council, and the majority of votes wins the day, just like democracy should be.

Do you think countries will go by what is not in their interest even if that is accepted by the majority. Do you think you can make USA, Russia, China, UK, France, Germany or even India to accept what is not in their interest. You are talking like a child. What does your proposal show other than stupidity?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you think counties will go by what is not in their interest even if that is accepted by the majority. Do you think you can make USA, Russia, China, UK, France, Germany or even India to accept what is not in their interest. You are talking like a child. What does your proposal show other than stupidity?

This will be their own choice, it is not the Baha'i that will make them.

I personally see it it the talk of a mature adult, as it will take maturity to work together as one humanuty.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

Oy, yes, I forgot, the number of votes per nation ideally should be proportionate to the number of people in nation. That's ideally proposed, but it could turn out differently in practice, like it did in the US. The House of Representatives has the number of delegates proportional to the population of that state, but the Senate has two person state. That was a difficult compromise between populous states and smaller states. It almost didn't get ratified.

That is nice. Then only China and India will dominate. No one else even being a close competitor.

Worldometer population statistics for today:
1

China 1,445,707,271
2

India 1,395,761,236
3

U.S.A. 333,240,215
China and India get 145 and 140 votes respectively, USA gets 33. India will surpass or perhaps has already done so by this time (Chinese statistics are not very reliable). Otherwise also, adding 45 million is not a big job for us.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is nice. Then only China and India will dominate. No one else even being a close competitor.

Worldometer population statistics for today:
1

China 1,445,707,271
2

India 1,395,761,236
3

U.S.A. 333,240,215
China and India get 145 and 140 votes respectively, USA gets 33. India will surpass or perhaps has already done so by this time (Chinese statistics are not very reliable). Otherwise also, adding 45 million is not a big job for us.

I do not see it happening on population, that will have some standing, but it may be minorities within Nations that get a voice as well.

A good thing to consider that unbridled Nationalism will be surpressed, so the domination of National thought will not be an issue. The desire will be to do the right thing.

Regards Tony

 

[Mock Turtle]

Do you think counties will go by what is not in their interest even if that is accepted by the majority. Do you think you can make USA, Russia, China, UK, France, Germany or even India to accept what is not in their interest. You are talking like a child. What does your proposal show other than stupidity?

I certainly don't expect it, and why I don't think any form of world government will arise, if at all, other than after some catastrophe, when it might dawn on us that it was and would be required to solve some issues. National interests are obviously the hardest to dissolve at the moment, and likely will be for a long while.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I personally see it it the talk of a mature adult, as it will take maturity to work together as one humanity.

Mature people have their feet on ground and not up in clouds. Yeah, many people will work for humanity, but just as many will not. However, all this sweet talk of cooperation, unity, peace, love among nations in disregard of their interests is childish and utopian. Who suggested that? Bahaollah or Abdul Baha.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Mature people have their feet on ground and not up in clouds. Yeah, many people will work for humanity, but just as many will not. However, all this sweet talk of cooperation, unity, peace, love among nations in disregard of their interests is childish and utopian. Who suggested that? Bahaollah or Abdul Baha.

Baha'u'llah and Abdu'lbaha showed us how to live it OB.

Their greatest enemies were warned of what would happen to them, if they chose not to turn to God. Yet they were ready to embrace any enemy that turned back to justice and virtue.

Abdul'baha showed us how to do that in Paris to a person that was responsible for many an injustice, many persecutions and murders.

So it can be done, now it's our choice to do so. The Baha'i try to follow that set example,so not childish and utopian, but attainable as an adult and now practiced by many children as well.

Regards Tony

 

[stvdv]

The idea is that the world will get so bad because of resistance to an effective world order that will have the enforcement and rules to do away with war and principles to make decisions on things on things like climate change that affect everybody alike that momentum will be created to have such an order. It will be demanded from the leaders.

That looks like the "New Normal" our leaders enforce on the world now

That = "the world will get so bad" + enforcement + climate change
Those 3 things I see happening now already, with "the New Normal" enforced on us

It does? That's news to me.

I have no trust/faith in "the New Normal" they try to impose on us. I just focused on the "bold" words in my reply

"True civilization will unfurl its banner in the midmost heart of the world whenever a certain number of its distinguished and high-minded sovereigns—the shining exemplars of devotion and determination—shall, for the good and happiness of all mankind, arise, with firm resolve and clear vision, to establish the Cause of Universal Peace.

That proves that it's not the "New Normal" they try to impose on us now. Glad to know that. Big relieve, better times ahead

That = devotion, which I do not see in leaders nowadays, hence I said that "the New Normal" is not the one you were speaking of from Bahai

I don't think Tony and I disagree. I don't think you understood me. What can I say to clear this up? What don't you understand?

I don't disagree with Tony about this at all. And I was not aware that I disagreed with you on this.
I just concluded that IMO "the New Normal" is not the type of government that the Bahai speaks about

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't disagree with Tony about this at all. And I was not aware that I disagreed with you on this.
I just concluded that IMO "the New Normal" is not the type of government that the Bahai speaks about

I would agree, the current Government's do need to shift their frames of reference and embrace the need of cooperation.

I do think they want to, but there is still to much self based decisions, with unbridled Nationalism, it is political suicide to say one wants to start working on relations with a perceived enemy.

The events of the world allow the masses to embrace help from those perceived enemies, to find they are all people, just like themselves.

Regards Tony

 

[stvdv]

The events of the world allow the masses to embrace help from those perceived enemies, to find they are all people, just like themselves.

That is a good way to start. China did give us a lot of masks (almost anything we buy in Holland has a label "made in China")

 

[stvdv]

I always wondered about that... How full was the glass before you saw that it was half full? Was it more than half or less than half?

It was full of clean air

 

[Truthseeker]

Do you think counties will go by what is not in their interest even if that is accepted by the majority. Do you think you can make USA, Russia, China, UK, France, Germany or even India to accept what is not in their interest. You are talking like a child. What does your proposal show other than stupidity?

If they don't, I propose an international force composed from all countries to enforce the decision by the world government. There will be little actual bloodshed in such a system, because a national government would know what would happen to them if they disobeyed. If that is not trusted immediately in the world, they can build trust in such a system, by testing out regional forces in each region.

 

[Aupmanyav]

How sad! Is this how you wish to bring about peace, love and brotherhood?
How would there be a truly international force if all countries do not accept your scheme? What weapons will this so-called international force use? Machine guns, tanks, missiles, nuclear bombs?
You are now showing your true colors. How then, are you different from the IS, Al Quaeda, Boko Haram or Taliban?
These prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations/ mahdis were really wanna-be dictators. Bahaollah proved this by ex-communicating nearly all his family, so that in two generations no one was left from the family to lead after Shoghi died.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How sad! Is this how you wish to bring about peace, love and brotherhood?
How would there be a truly international force if all countries do not accept your scheme? What weapons will this so-called international force use? Machine guns, tanks, missiles, nuclear bombs?
You are now showing your true colors. How then, are you different from the IS, Al Quaeda, Boko Haram or Taliban?
These prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations/ mahdis were really wanna-be dictators. Bahaollah proved this by ex-communicating nearly all his family, so that in two generations no one was left from the family to lead after Shoghi died.

That is so wrong on all fronts Aupmanyav, it is hard to answer it all. You are raining fire on friend's, not enemies.

Firstly, this is not in any way, repeat in any way what the Baha'i's are doing, this is what Baha'u'llah said the world will eventually have to do. Why, because most of what Baha'u'llah offered has been out right rejected by the majority of the world.

I also offer that no Baha'i, that has embraced what was offered for peace by Baha'u'llah, expects any other person to accept what Baha'u'llah offered, as that was a choice then, as it is now.

How can we know what a world government would choose to do when it was forced to carry out an action? It has not been elected, so there is no mandate to consider.

The only path I offer and a Bahai will offer is Love and Peace, they are the colours we show.

The rest does not need an answer, so when you calm down, take a big breath and re—avaluate what you offered, it is all so very wrong.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"To the question of disarmament, all nations must disarm at the same time. It will not do at all, and it is not proposed, that some nations shall lay down their arms while others, their neighbours, remain armed. The peace of the world must be brought about by international agreement. All nations must agree to disarm simultaneously…
No nation can follow a peace policy while its neighbour remains warlike. There is no justice in that. Nobody would dream of suggesting that the peace of the world could be brought about by any such line of action. It is to be brought about by a general and comprehensive international agreement, and in no other way…"

If any one wants the citation for this quote by Abdu’l-Baha, here it is, sorry can not edit the post it is in Bahá'í Reference Library - Peace, Pages 16-17

Post 218

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

Firstly, this is not in any way, repeat in any way what the Baha'i's are doing, this is what Baha'u'llah said the world will eventually have to do. Why, because most of what Baha'u'llah offered has been out right rejected by the majority of the world.
How can we know what a world government would choose to do when it was forced to carry out an action?
The only path I offer and a Bahai will offer is Love and Peace, they are the colours we show.

But that is exactly what Truthseeker said, "I propose an international force composed from all countries to enforce the decision by the world government." Yeah, I know the 5 million or so Bahais do not have the power to do anything like that. So, If people reject what Bahaollah said, you would like to use force to make them accept it?
A world government under the Bahai banner is your pipe-dream. Even a union of nations of has not succeeded anywhere.
And what are the colors you hide?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But that is exactly what Truthseeker said, "I propose an international force composed from all countries to enforce the decision by the world government." Yeah, I know the 5 million or so Bahais do not have the power to do anything like that. So, If people reject what Bahaollah said, you would like to use force to make them accept it?
A world government under the Bahai banner is your pipe-dream. Even a union of nations of has not succeeded anywhere.
And what are the colors you hide?

What Truthseeker proposed is what Baha'u'llah offered will need to unfold since they did not want the Most Great Peace, then they have to cling to a lesser peace, which will be mankind's choice, that is all, it had no other intent.

It is not the Bahai that will use force, I see the old world order will do that for themselves, as they play battle between nations after resources and power to dominate.

You may note I may be one of the less hidden here and I also note there are many that try to find me, just waiting for any opportunity to try to take the happiness away, best of luck there.

I am the colour of happiness and content with life and all the mistakes I have made. Never to old to learn.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The path to achieve it will be by discussions and It will have to be a unity in our diversity. The process will have to ask for some compromises, as there must be some compromise made, when the world chooses to work together.

Regards Tony

Hey Tony, I work in construction and a lot of the young guys starting out, no matter Black, White or Hispanic, all share a kind of Hip Hop culture... the music, the way they talk and the way they dance. Kind of like when I was that age a lot of us shared the Hippie culture. We had our own way of talking. We had our own music, but we also started to appreciate and accept other styles of music from other people and cultures. So kids just get out and do things that the older generation won't do. Like the Florida High School kids having anti-gun rallies. And that Swedish girl doing things to bring awareness to the environmental problems. I don't think adults can do it.