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Featured Could Jesus been born with a father and still be Son of God?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by InvestigateTruth, Jul 7, 2020.

  1. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    It says that Jesus is not God, and I've given you the quotes in the past but you're welcome to them again ─ just ask.

    And if Jesus really was God, then his failure to make that clear means that his ministry was one long deceit, a deliberate policy of misleading people.

    But in fact he didn't become God until the 4th century CE, when the Trinity doctrine was invented. The Trinity doctrine is called by the churches 'a mystery in the strict sense' which is to say that "it can neither be known by unaided reason apart from revelation, nor cogently demonstrated by reason once it has been revealed" ─ meaning that the Trinity doctrine is incoherent, a nonsense.

    Still, I've told you all this before, but you didn't want to hear it then, so I dare say you don't want to hear it now.

    As for Jesus being sinless, first, he denies he's sinless in that quote you mention, Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. It's one of fifteen or more denials that he's God, which the NT attributes to him in direct speech.

    Second, when you take a whip to people lawfully going about their business in the Temple, with the approval of the Temple authorities and in accordance with Temple traditions, you're just a self-important bully, guilty of assault, battery, damage to property, public disorder, 'pride', arrogance, hypocrisy ('turn the other cheek'), picking on the weak (if he didn't like what the law allowed, he should have taken it up with the Temple authorities, not the small traders), and more.

    And ─ please correct me if I'm wrong ─ he never claims to be sinless anyway. As I said in other posts, the Jesuses of Mark, Matthew and Luke all expressly needed to be baptized ie have their sins washed away. In Mark in particular (he being the only version of Jesus exressly from a normal Jewish family) it was only then that God appeared and adopted him as [his] son, just as [he]'d adopted David as his son in Psalm 2:7.
     
  2. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 6: 8-11; Then I heard the Lord say, “Whom shall I send? Who will be our messenger?”
    I answered, “I will go! Send me!”

    So he told me to go and give the people this message: “No matter how much you listen, you will not understand. No matter how much you look, you will not know what is happening.” Then he said to me, “Make the minds of these people dull, their ears deaf, and their eyes blind, so that they cannot see or hear or understand. If they did, they might turn to me and be healed.”

    Matthew 13: 11-15;
    Jesus answered, “The knowledge about the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. For the person who has something will be given more, so that he will have more than enough; but the person who has nothing will have taken away from him even the little he has. The reason I use parables in talking to them is that they look, but do not see, and they listen, but do not hear or understand. So the prophecy of Isaiah applies to them:

    ‘This people will listen and listen, but not understand; they will look and look, but not see, because their minds are dull, and they have stopped up their ears and have closed their eyes. Otherwise, their eyes would see, their ears would hear, their minds would understand, and they would turn to me, says God, and I would heal them.’
     
  3. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, but the relevance of this escapes me.
     
  4. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Who was taken to the throne of the Most High in the creation at the age of 365, and anointed as the heir and successor to that throne, and who was in the valley of man for three days=three thousand years, before filling the man Jesus with his words=spirit, which the man Jesus spoke in his name?

    From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; "And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason, Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it." Adam died at the age of 930 in the first day.

    Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 (In days---A calendar year: the one-year old sacrificial Lamb of God.) and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.

    Hebrews 11: 5; “By faith Enoch was translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.

    The only man to have ascended to the ends of all time and was translated so as to never see death, and this man, plays absolutely no part in the belief of the Jewish or universal/Catholic church of Constantine: “The Stone that the builder's rejected, has turned out to be the most important stone of all."

    Sandalphon is an archangel in Jewish and Christian writings. Sandalphon figures prominently in the mystical literary traditions of Rabbinic Judaism and early Christianity, notably in the Midrash, Talmud, and Kabbalah.

    Some of the earliest sources on Sandalphon refer to him as the prophet Elijah transfigured and elevated to angelic status. Other sources (mainly from the midrashic period) describe him as the "twin brother" of Metatron, whose human origin as Enoch was similar to the human origin of Sandalphon.

    Sandalphon and Metatron are post human angels, Metatron is the name that was given to Enoch after he had been translated from a body of corruptible matter into a glorious body of incorruptible light, and Sandalphron, who is erroneously thought by some to be Metatron"s twin, is in fact Elijah"s angelic name after he was carried up to stand before Enoch and was also transfigured.

    Metatron is also mentioned in the Pseudepigrapha, most prominently in the Hebrew Book of Enoch (also called Third Enoch), in which his grand title, "the lesser YHVH" resurfaces. (The son of JHWH) It is also said that Metatron.The anointed one=CHRIST, was the angel who guided Israel through the wilderness.
     
  5. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    The relevance of that is even more invisible to me.

    I suggest we discontinue this discussion.
     
  6. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    He didn't just whip people, He turned over the money changers' tables, stone tables weighing two tons or more each. How?

    He didn't say, "Baptize me for sin" He said, "To fulfill all righteousness". Baptism is identification with GOD and has no value in removing sin. Trusting Jesus removes sin per the Bible.

    The quote I mentioned was ironic: Why do you call me good [which I am utterly]? Only God [me!] is [utterly] good.

    The trinity isn't incoherent to me, nor should it have been to them. I'm a father, a son and a husband. My wife and I are two entities who work together, etc.
     
  7. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Quote me the part of the story that says the tables were stone and weighed two tons. I think you'll find it says nothing of the kind.
    Baptism is the ritual washing off of sin. That's why it uses water. I don't think this view is even controversial.
    No, it's one of fifteen or more sayings attributed to Jesus in direct speech where he expressly denies he's God. By contrast, he never once claims to be God. And as I've remarked to you before, if Jesus was nonetheless and in fact God, his entire ministry was one long, repeated deceit.
    That's not what the Trinity doctrine says. It denies that God is a corporation with three shareholders or a board of three. It denies that God is a partnership of three partners. It denies that Father Jesus and Ghost are three gods. Instead it says that each of Father, Jesus and Ghost is 100% of God yet at the same time each is a distinct and separate person. 100%+100%+100%=300%=3 gods, but no, this is denied. The question of which 'person' answers the phone when you pray to God is not answered. No explanation is given for the Jesuses of Mark and Matthew saying on the cross, Me, me, why have I forsaken me? If Jesus is the son of God then Jesus is his own father (as is the Ghost, as is the Father, though why the Father is called the Father is also unexplained).

    And so on.
     
  8. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    I see that you too blu 2, have rejected the most important stone of all, the chosen cornerstone to who all the spirits of the righteous were gathered in the creation of God's new temple of glorious and blinding Light.

    Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 (In days---A calendar year: the one-year old sacrificial Lamb of God.) and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.

    Hebrews 11: 5; “By faith Enoch was translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.

    The only man to have ascended to the ends of all time and was translated so as to never see death, and this man, plays absolutely no part in the belief of the Jewish or universal/Catholic church of Constantine: “The Stone that the builder's rejected, has turned out to be the most important stone of all."

    The books of Enoch from which Jesus and his apostles taught and his half brother Jude, quoted from verbatim, was cherished by the early Christians. and were held in great reverence by many of the early church fathers, including Irenaeus, Tertullian and Origen, right up until the fourth century, when under the ban of dogmatic authorities of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, such as Hilary, Jerome, and Augustine, they finally passed out of circulation and were thought lost for millennia.

    Enoch speaks of the things he saw in his ascent to the 10th heaven:

    “And in that place mine eyes saw the Elect One of righteousness and of faith, and I saw his dwelling place beneath the wings of the Lord of Spirits, and righteousness shall prevail in his days, and the righteous and elect shall be without number before him forever and ever. And all the righteous and elect before him shall be as fiery lights, and their mouths shall be full of blessing. And their lips shall extol the name of the Lord of Spirits, and righteousness before him shall never fail.”

    There I wished to dwell, and my spirit longed for that dwelling place: and henceforth hath been my portion. For so it hath been established concerning me before the Lord of Spirits.--------------On that day Mine Elect One shall sit on the throne of glory and shall try their works, and their places of rest shall be innumerable, and their souls shall grow strong within them when they see Mine elect ones, and those who have called on MY Glorious Name ( my addition; JHWH= Who I Am).

    Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one" It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach. The Hebrew word translated "anointed" is the verb form of the noun "Messiah."

    And the Elect One in those days shall sit on MY throne, (Enoch is the living indwelling ancestral spirit of all the descendants of the eight souls who were saved by the water, and the one who was taken to heaven and anointed as the heir and successor to the throne of the most High in the creation) and his mouth shall pour forth all the secrets of wisdom and counsel; for the Lord of Spirits hath given them to him and hath glorified him, etc.

    Noah, his wife, their three sons and their wives are all genetic descendants of Enoch through his six sons Methusulah, Rigam, Riman, Urchan, Cherminion and Giadad.

    Then I will cause Mine Elect One to dwell among them. And I will transform the heaven and make it an eternal blessing of Light, and I will transform the earth and make it a blessing: and I will cause Mine elect ones to dwell upon it: but the sinners and evil-doers shall not set foot thereon, for I have provided and satisfied with peace My righteous one.

    Concerning the Elect one of righteousness, Enoch the Prophet has this to say 49: 3; “In him dwells the spirit of wisdom, and the spirit which gives insight, and the spirit of understanding and of might, and ‘THE SPIRITS OF THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN ASLEEP IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.’”

    These are the spirits of Good people who fell asleep in righteousness after paying the blood price for their inherited sin and any mistakes that they had made in life, they who were judged as righteous and were separated from the unrighteous dead, and gathered to the evolving living spirit within the bosom of Abraham, which body of righteous Spirits over whom death had no more power, were reborn on earth as the man Jesus, whom Enoch had seen and chosen in his ascent to the ends=beginning of time.

    It was those righteous spirits, whose graves were opened when Jesus, on the cross gave up his spirit as he cried out, “My God, My God, why have you abandoned me?” which righteous spirits, three days later came out of their graves and entered the city and revealed themselves to many, as the risen body of Christ, THE ANOINTED ONE.

    BTW blu 2, According to 1st Peter 20-21, the water baptism is symbolic of the flood, in which the old body of mankind that had descended from Adam, who was the Most High in the creation, was submerged in the baptismal waters of the world, and the new body of Enoch, who was anointed as the successor to that throne [The eight survivors in the ark] came up out of those baptismal waters.
     
    #88 The Anointed, Jul 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
  9. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Baptism is the last thing a Gentile convert does before becoming Jewish, but they may not do so unless they immediately beforehand renounce all other gods. Baptism is identification, "in the NAME OF JESUS" and not "washing sin off with water". You may have read the OT where they have thousands of bloody living sacrifices for sin... the rest of your post is nearly as bad as this error of yours.
     
  10. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    And I see that what you say is your view and you're welcome to it.
     
  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Yes, I see that baptism is accepted as a rite of entry in the church. But since that doesn't apply to Jesus, clearly his baptism by JtB was about something else, and since Mark's Jesus is just an ordinary Jewish citizen up to that point, washing of sins is the very obvious one ─ not till after does God adopt him as his son. I also see that Paul says sinners won't get to heaven unless they're washed (1 Corinthians 6:11).

    Which said, Jesus said no one is good but God alone, and (on numerous occasions) that he was not God, and he's not remembered for cracking ironic jokes such as you seek to attribute to him. And anyway his loutish and violent behavior against the moneychangers is sufficient evidence of his sinful nature.
    You're just mumbling and grumbling. Otherwise you'd make specific criticisms and back them with evidence.
     
  12. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Salvation isn't via water baptism. No Greek evangelical churches with the original language in mind say so.

    Biblically speaking, salvation comes through trusting Christ.

    What I wonder is how the water John poured on an "ordinary sinner" enabled Him to do miracles, speak the most influential words in human history, etc.! Of course, if you say those things didn't happen as per Mark, then you have a double standard claiming X in Mark is FACT and Y in Mark is FABLE.
     
  13. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Unfortunately it's not a double standard. There are five significant versions of Jesus in the NT, so it's a quintuple standard. For example, we know that Mark's Jesus wasn't born of a virgin or with portents foretelling his arrival; and he alone of the Jesuses is not of David's line ─ the other four were. The Jesuses of Paul and the author of John are the only two Jesuses to pre-exist in heaven; the way they got an earthly form is never explained, other than that we can imply they were born of Jewish parents because of that claim of descent from David. They are the only two Jesuses to have made the material universe; the other three didn't pre-exist and didn't make the material universe ─ were not in the gnostic mold, in other words.

    But I may have remarked to you before that it's possible ─ not certain ─ that there was a real Jesus behind the stories, and that he never spoke of his mother without vituperation (except once, the crucifixion of John's Jesus). Paul doesn't mention that, but the other four do. Interesting if it were the only real thing Jesus is remembered for, no?
     
  14. Mitty

    Mitty Active Member

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    In the same way that Psalm 2:7 says that David was his god's begotten son, even though David was an adulterous murderer who said that his love with Jonathon was more wonderful than with any of his wives or concubines (2Sam 1:26).
     
  15. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 7: 14; Jewish Translation: “Therefore the Lord, of his own, shall give you a sign; behold the ‘YOUNG WOMAN’ is with child, and she shall bear a son and she shall call his name Immanuel.”

    Isaiah 7: 14; Erroneous KJV Translation; “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold the ‘Virgin’ shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel.”

    “The Greek word parthenos (παρθένος) is ambiguous but the Hebrew term “Almah”[Unmarried Female] is absolute, and is erroneously translated from Isaiah 7: 14, to Greek in Matthew 1:23; as “virgin,” whereas according to Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, the Hebrew term “Almah,” carries the meaning, (Concealment---unmarried female.)”

    In 1973, an ecumenical edition of RSV was approved by both Protestant and Catholic hierarchies, called the common bible. A New English Translation of the Bible, published in 1970 and approved by the council of churches in England, Scotland, Wales, the Irish council of churches, the London Society of Friends, and the Methodist and Presbyterian churches of England, all translate Isaiah 7: 14; “A young Woman is with child, and she will bear a son.”

    Also The Good News Bible, Catholic Study Edition, with imprimatur by Archbishop John Whealon reads, Isaiah 7: 14; “A young woman who is pregnant will have a son, etc.”

    As these religious bodies all now accept that Isaiah was not referring to a virgin in that famous passage, they must now accept that the authors of the Septuagint and The Gospel of Matthew, who were forced to use the Greek term “Parthenos” in reference to Isaiah’s prophecy, were in no way implying that the pregnant Mary, was still a virgin.

    An 'almah' (A young unmarried woman) can be a virgin, but a pregnant almah (A young unmarried female) cannot be a virgin.

    Isaiah 7: 14; Jewish Translation: “Therefore the Lord, of his own, shall give you a sign; behold the ‘YOUNG WOMAN’ (IS WITH CHILD,) and she shall bear a son and she shall call his name Immanuel.”

    Mattthew 1: 22-23; should now read; ‘Now all this happened to make come true what the Lord had said through the prophet [Isaiah],’ “An unmarried woman/Almah who is pregnant will bear a son and he will be called immanuel: (“which means God is with us.”)

    Mary was the daughter of Alexander Helios/Heli and Anna/Hanna, who was one of three elderly daughters of Yehoshua/Jesus III, who was high priest in Jerusalem from 36 to 23 BC. Anna/Hanna whose mother was ‘phanuel’ from the tribe of Asher, was given as a bride to the young Alexander Helios (Heli) and Jesus is the son of “Joseph, the son of Heli.”

    Galatians 4: 29; At that time, the child born according to the flesh [Ishmael] despised and persecuted him, [Isaac] who was born according to God’s promise and the workings of the Holy Spirit.

    Isaac, who is the prototype of Jesus, was born of a brother/sister relationship and born of God’s promise according to the power/workings of the Holy Spirit, and Isaac was the biological son of Abraham and his half sister Sarah, who were both sired by Terah: just as Jesus, who was born of God’s promise according to the power of the Holy Spirit, was the biological son of Joseph and his half sister Mary, who were both sired by Alexander Helios.

    Isaac, was offered up as a sacrifice by his father on the same mountain that Jesus, who had been chosen as the heir to our Fathers throne, was offered up. But both lived on, as God had prepared a replacement sacrifice for them. The replacement for Isaac, was a sheep, the replacement for Jesus, was the one-year old unblemished lamb of God, [Enoch] who, at the age of 365, the number of days in a calendar year, was taken to the throne of the Most High in the creation and anointed as his successor, to serve God before the body of Adam/mankind into all eternity.

    Just as Isaac the promised seed of Abraham was born through the union of Abraham and his half-sister Sarah according to the workings of the Holy Spirit, so too, the man Jesus, the reality of God’s promise to Abraham, was born according to the workings of the Holy Spirit and born of the union of Mary and her half-brother Joseph, who were both sired by Heli=Alexander Helios.

    Luke 3:23; (KJV) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli. The (AS WAS SUPPOSED) in brackets, was a later interpolation by those who would have you believe the false teaching of the so-called virgin birth.

    In the different translations of the KJV into Arabic, Afrikaan, Zulu, etc, and even some of the more modern English translations, such as the Good News Catholic Study Edition Bible, the words (As was supposed) have been retained, but the brackets are removed, thus by, making those words appear to be the declaration of Luke, while the serious biblical student know that they were not written by Luke, but were a later interpolation and a corruption of the Holy Scriptures, by those Christians, who refuse to accept that Jesus was not a God who became a man, but a man, born of human parents, who was later CHOSEN by the Lord our saviour ‘The Son of Man,’ as his heir and successor.

    If Jesus was not born of the flesh as all human beings are, but was born of a virgin without male semen having been introduced into her uterus, then this would have been the greatest of all miracles, and would have been shouted from the roof tops by all four gospel writers and yet we see that Mark and John ignore the physical birth of Jesus as being totally irrelevant to the story of salvation and begin their account of He who was sent in the name of the Lord, with the Baptism of the man Jesus, when he was born of the spirit that descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, “You are my son, Today I have begotten thee.”

    This verse; Luke 3:22; which now reads; “Thou art my beloved son in whom I am pleased,” was also changed by those who want you to believe that Jesus was not born of the flesh by two human parents and Later, on the day of his baptism, born of the spirit of our Lord God and saviour, ‘The Son of MAN’ and the MOST HIGH in the creation, when the spirit of our Lord descended upon him in the form of a dove

    In Luke 3: 22; (In place of “Thou art my beloved son in who I am well pleased.”) The following authorities of the second, third, and fourth centuries read, “This day I have begotten thee,” vouched for by Codex D, and the most ancient copies of the old latin (a, b. c. ff.I), by Justin Martyr (AD 140), Clemens Alex, (AD. 190), Methodius (AD. 290), among the Greeks. And among the Latins, Lactaitius (AD 300), Hilary (AD) Juvencus (AD. 330), Faustus (AD. 400) and Augustine. All these oldest manuscripts were changed completely. They now read, “This is my son in whom I am well pleased.” Whereas the original variant was, “Thou art my Son. This day I have begotten thee.”

    IMO, All gospels refute the false teaching of the virgin birth.

    Jesus became son of God, not by blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the spirit of our Lord and savior, who descended upon the man Jesus in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my Son, this day I have begotten thee, or as said in the book of Hebrews 5: 5, "You are my son, TODAY I have become your Father."
     
  16. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    If there was an historical Jesus he was a real human with real parents.

    However, there are five versions of Jesus in the NT, and only Mark's is essentially human, and none of the versions may be correct. It's possible to account for the NT without the need of an historical Jesus.
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I've tried to convey to you politely that I'm not interested in this stuff and I don't read more than the first line of your posts. Now I'll just say so.
     
  18. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    I realise that you are not interested in the truth as revealed in the Holy Scriptures, but only haunt the religious section of this forum, in your infantile attempt to disprove the words of the Lord God our savior.

    So if you are not interested in this stuff, why are you still here?
     
  19. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Veteran Member

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    Thanks! Please also answer my question:

    You are using Mark to claim water John poured on an "ordinary sinner" enabled Him to do miracles, speak the most influential words in human history, etc.! How do you know X in Mark is FACT and Y in Mark is FABLE?
     
  20. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I think any story about a miracle is fable.

    I also think there's only one purported bio of Jesus, and that's Mark's, which is constructed by flights of fancy based on passages in the Tanakh, to the extent that this is part of the evidence throwing doubt on whether there was an historical Jesus at all. The authors of Matthew, Luke and John simply rewrite, expand, contract &c Mark to their personal taste, adding flights of fancy of their own. (Of course I don't dismiss the possibility that the stories, or some of them, pre-existed in the respective groups of proto-Christians to which they each belonged.)

    The result, in any event, is that there are five distinct Jesuses in the NT, who fall into at least three incompatible categories ─ Mark's ordinary Jew not descended from David but adopted on David's model, Matthew's and Luke's products of divine insemination, and Paul's and John's gnostic demiurge, who lived in heaven with God before coming to earth, and who had earlier created the material universe.

    And I think I gave you examples of Jesus' sins, and that was after his baptism (but if I didn't, just ask).
     
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