• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Could Jesus been born with a father and still be Son of God?

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
1. Was Jesus a Spirit in Heaven Prior to Mary's Pregnancy?

2. Was Jesus son of God, before Mary getting pregnant?


3. Let's assume if Mary became pregnant after marrying Joseph, could still Jesus become the Child if Mary got pregnant by Joseph??

4. Or what made Jesus Son of God, was only possible, when Jesus did not have a human father?

Solomon was born of an earthly father was was called the son of God. See 2 Samuel 7:1-14
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
Our friend @The Anointed just reminded me of

Luke 18:18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
Jesus' most obvious sin was his histrionic rage against the money-changers in the Temple, who were acting with the full permission of the Temple authorities, earning a much more honest living than many, working within a tradition that was also part of the economic life of the Temple itself, in short lawfully going about their business.

So when he physically assaulted them, he was guilty of a breach of the peace, assault and battery, damage to property, hypocrisy in not turning the other cheek, self-righteousness, judging others (lest ye be judged), and no doubt more. This is a guy who likes people to think he voluntarily hung out with tax collectors and other riffraff, after all.

And he wantonly killed someone's ─ olive? ─ tree in a fit of pique at some point, didn't he?

And he manipulated and framed Judas.

Did he ever pay compensation to the owners of the pigs he sent over the cliff?

And that's just off the top of my head.


[Our friend @The Anointed just reminded me of
Luke 18:18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.]


Jesus was saying that because at that point in life he wasnt immortal yet. He still had a nature that "could" sin. But what he said doesnt make him a sinner.

But at any point, Jesus never sinned. I showed you a few verses in the other post that said Jesus never sinned. Plus you go back to that OT in the sacrifices. That point of sacrificing a perfect animal is representing Christ. That's the whole point of it.
[Jesus' most obvious sin was his histrionic rage against the money-changers in the Temple,]
Just because Jesus got angry is not a sin. Even God gets angry and hates things, that doesnt make it a sin. Plus, again, the bible says that Jesus died sinless. So i'm really not sure what's going on here......

[So when he physically assaulted them.... ]
What verses is that?.......


[And he wantonly killed someone's ─ olive? ─ tree in a fit of pique at some point, didn't he?]
Not sure what your talking about here.......

[And he manipulated and framed Judas.]
In what way? Can you please show some verses?

[Did he ever pay compensation to the owners of the pigs he sent over the cliff?]
They could have been wild pigs on a mountain. Even if Jesus didnt pay the owner back, that is not a sin.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
[Our friend @The Anointed just reminded me of
Luke 18:18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.]


Jesus was saying that because at that point in life he wasnt immortal yet. He still had a nature that "could" sin. But what he said doesnt make him a sinner.

But at any point, Jesus never sinned. I showed you a few verses in the other post that said Jesus never sinned. Plus you go back to that OT in the sacrifices. That point of sacrificing a perfect animal is representing Christ. That's the whole point of it.
[Jesus' most obvious sin was his histrionic rage against the money-changers in the Temple,]
Just because Jesus got angry is not a sin. Even God gets angry and hates things, that doesnt make it a sin. Plus, again, the bible says that Jesus died sinless. So i'm really not sure what's going on here......

[So when he physically assaulted them.... ]
What verses is that?.......


[And he wantonly killed someone's ─ olive? ─ tree in a fit of pique at some point, didn't he?]
Not sure what your talking about here.......

[And he manipulated and framed Judas.]
In what way? Can you please show some verses?

[Did he ever pay compensation to the owners of the pigs he sent over the cliff?]
They could have been wild pigs on a mountain. Even if Jesus didnt pay the owner back, that is not a sin.

moorea944, wrote; Jesus was saying that because at that point in life he wasnt immortal yet. He still had a nature that "could" sin. But what he said doesnt make him a sinner.

So then, you agree that Jesus was not an immortal God who became a man, but a mortal man who was given the gift of an everlasting life by the Lord God our savior who filled him with his spirit on the day he was baptised.

For the man Jesus, son of Mary and Joseph ben Heli, was born 'son of God' not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but by the spirit that descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my Son, this day I have begotten thee." Or as the author of the book of Hebrews says in 5:5; "You are my son TODAY I have become your father."

Good for you. keep going and one day you will come to know the truth's as revealed in the Holy Scriptures
 
Last edited:

moorea944

Well-Known Member
moorea944, wrote; Jesus was saying that because at that point in life he wasnt immortal yet. He still had a nature that "could" sin. But what he said doesnt make him a sinner.

So then, you agree that Jesus was not an immortal God who became a man, but a mortal man who was given the gift of an everlasting life by the Lord God our savior who filled him with his spirit on the day he was baptised.

For the man Jesus, son of Mary and Joseph ben Heli, was born 'son of God' not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but by the spirit that descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my Son, this day I have begotten thee." Or as the author of the book of Hebrews says in 5:5; "You are my son TODAY I have become your father."

Good for you. keep going and one day you will come to know the truth's as revealed in the Holy Scriptures

[So then, you agree that Jesus was not an immortal God]
True. Why..... do you believe he was God?

[who became a man, but a mortal man who was given the gift of an everlasting life by the Lord God our savior who filled him with his spirit on the day he was baptised.]
No. He was born a man, which the bible states. Mary was his mother and God was his father. He became immortal after his resurrection.

[For the man Jesus, son of Mary and Joseph ben Heli, was born 'son of God' not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but by the spirit that descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my Son, this day I have begotten thee." Or as the author of the book of Hebrews says in 5:5; "You are my son TODAY I have become your father."]
Jesus was born of flesh and blood. Same nature as us. (Heb 2). When he became immortal, he stated that he was flesh and bone. I'm really not understanding what your trying to say in your paragraph......

[Good for you. keep going and one day you will come to know the truth's as revealed in the Holy Scriptures]
I take it your being sarcastic?..... If you think I'm saying something wrong, just let me know what you dont like.....
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
[So then, you agree that Jesus was not an immortal God]
True. Why..... do you believe he was God?

[who became a man, but a mortal man who was given the gift of an everlasting life by the Lord God our savior who filled him with his spirit on the day he was baptised.]
No. He was born a man, which the bible states. Mary was his mother and God was his father. He became immortal after his resurrection.

[For the man Jesus, son of Mary and Joseph ben Heli, was born 'son of God' not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but by the spirit that descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say; "You are my Son, this day I have begotten thee." Or as the author of the book of Hebrews says in 5:5; "You are my son TODAY I have become your father."]
Jesus was born of flesh and blood. Same nature as us. (Heb 2). When he became immortal, he stated that he was flesh and bone. I'm really not understanding what your trying to say in your paragraph......

[Good for you. keep going and one day you will come to know the truth's as revealed in the Holy Scriptures]
I take it your being sarcastic?..... If you think I'm saying something wrong, just let me know what you dont like.....

"moorea944, asks the question, "do you believe he (The man Jesus) was God?" Read my posts #17 and #21, then judge for yourself.

You are correct in stating that Mary who united with her half brother Joseph the son of Alexander Helios, to conceive and bear the child Jesus, and that the Lord God our savior was his spiritual Father, who filled the man Jesus with his spirit on the day that he was baptised and the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my son, this day I have begotten thee.' Or as the author of the book of Hebrews puts it in 5: 5; "You are my son, TODAY I have become your Father."

Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, do you believe that Jesus was given divine Glory by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as revealed in Acts 3: 13; and is now incontestably divine, and sits in the throne of our heavenly Father, where, according to Revelation 3: 21; he invites all, who like himself, are able to win the victory over the ruler of this world to sit beside him in the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation.

And, no! I was not being sarcastic, but encouraging you to remain in the Word of the Lord until you may also win the victory and sit beside our brother, who has been made our King and High priest.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
My pleasure. The underlying source of these ideas in both Paul and the author of John is gnosticism, Jesus as the demiurge.

1 Corinthian 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

John 1:2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.

If you believe that Jesus was the 'LOGOS' then you have been studying the teachings of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, and not the Holy Scriptures.

Nothing is solid & everything is energy: scientists explain the world of quantum physics

An excerpt from the above link.

Pioneering physicist Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a ‘GREAT THOUGT’ than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as ‘THE CREATOR’ and governor of the realm of matter. (R. C. Henry, “The Mental Universe”; Nature 436:29, 2005)

That ‘GREAT THOUGHT’ is the LOGOS God, who is the divine reality of the universe, the eternal spirit from which all being originates and to which all must return at the close of each period of universal activity.

The root to the word Brahman originally meant SPEECH, Brahman is the creator of the Hindus, and is one and the same as the WORD = the Logos; who is the Christians creator, the eternal gathering of information, which is expressed in each universal body. Brahman (Speech) as with Logos (Word) is the essential divine reality of the universe, the eternal evolving spirit from which all being originates and to who all being must return.

The LOGOS God, is today as he has always been. He is the only true constant in that he is constantly evolving. The only mind that has ceased to evolve, is the mind that has ceased to exist.

Shabda OR SHABDA STANDS FOR ‘WORD’ MANIFESTED BY SOUND [VERBAL]

Bhartrhari speaks about the creative power of shabda, the manifold universe is a creation of Shabda Brahman

The Rig Veda states that Brahman extends as far as Vāc (R.V.X.114.8), and has hymns in praise of ‘SPEECH AS THE CREATOR.’

The Greek word “LOGOS’ which has been translated as “WORD”, should be seen as ‘The thoughts in the mind which are to be expressed.

The term, “LOGOS” = ‘WORD, pertains to the very plan from the outset. [The creation of a universal body in which a Supreme mind or personality of Godhead to that body, develops.] In Sanskrit the similar meaning is given in the use of the word 'vac.' Vac means word. But in Sanskrit teachings of the Sanatana Dharma, vac has many levels. Including where the word is first considered as being in the mind as a thought, not as the spoken word or speech.

John 1: 1; In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God and was God. And the supreme personality or controlling mind to have developed within the invisible eternal body of ever evolving information, was “THE LIGHT OF MAN” All the information, knowledge, wisdom and insight, gained from the body of mankind, the MOST HIGH in the previous creation, who was the Light and life of that ever-growing body of information, which is called God. All things came into existence through him, by him and for him. Without him, nothing exists.

Countless universal bodies have burst forth from Brahman=Logos and have retuned, to him, each one evolving a little higher than the previous body. The days and nights of Brahman are called manvantara and prayala, Manvantara refers to each period of universal activity and Pralaya refers to the periods of universal darkness or non-being according to our finite minds.

Every living thing within this apparent boundless cosmos, are merely information gatherers for the eternal energy, that Great Thought, which manifests itself as this living universe, which is all that exists. and is the collective consciousness of all that exists, there is nothing that you have ever done or will do in the future, that is not recorded within the ‘GREAT THOUGHT.’

This nano technology, it really frightens me
They can make a flying camera that looks just like a bee
Can spiders, ants, and house flies transmit the things I say
Can our words and all our actions be recorded every day?

I remember back when I was young, I’s no more’n a lad
Sometimes I’d be at home alone and doin something bad
And I’d turn mums crucifix around so He couldn’t see me do it
Now I think of all this nano stuff and I think I might have blew it

Once you understand that God is all, you’d have to be half blind
Not to realise that everything feeds into that great mind
All them spiders in the corners, ants in every crack and nook
Were filming everything I did---now it’s recorded in God’s book.

But that don’t really bother me, cos I know it’s tightly sealed
And only one’s allowed to open it---and you know? somehow I feel
He’s not the sort what runs around accusing everyone
And though He lives in me, one day I’ll be, in Him, ‘God’s only Son.’……… The Anointed.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
[Our friend @The Anointed just reminded me of
Luke 18:18 And a ruler asked him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.]


Jesus was saying that because at that point in life he wasnt immortal yet. He still had a nature that "could" sin. But what he said doesnt make him a sinner.
What's an example of being not-good without sinning? The capacity to sin is not sin until you do something with it. I have the capacity to murder, and to double-park ─ but so far I've managed not to murder anyone.
That point of sacrificing a perfect animal is representing Christ. That's the whole point of it.
Animal sacrifice as an excuse for a feed, I guess that can be done in an acceptable manner. Human sacrifice is simply murder. Every time, without exception.
[Jesus' most obvious sin was his histrionic rage against the money-changers in the Temple,] Just because Jesus got angry is not a sin.
I didn't accuse him of getting angry. I accused him of assault, battery, damage to property, disorderly conduct, hypocrisy, self-righteousness and judging, &c. The money-changers were going about their perfectly lawful business and were innocent of wrongdoing according to the customs of the Jews, not least the Temple authorities, if Jesus had a beef he should have taken the matter up with the bosses, not bashed the groundlings.
[So when he physically assaulted them.... ]
What verses is that?.......
John 2:15: And making a whip of cords he drove them all, with the sheep and oxen, out of the temple; and he poured out the coins of the moneychangers and overturned their tables.​
[And he wantonly killed someone's ─ olive? ─ tree in a fit of pique at some point, didn't he?]
Not sure what your talking about here.......
My fault ─ I should have looked it up ─

Matthew 21:18 In the morning, as he was returning to the city, he was hungry. 19 And seeing a figtree by the wayside he went to it, and found nothing on it but leaves only. And he said to it, "May no fruit ever come from you again!" And the fig tree withered at once.​

That suggests it was a tree on public land, but destroying it in a fit of temper is wanton and denies others, and it wasn't his to destroy anyway.
[And he manipulated and framed Judas.]
In what way? Can you please show some verses?
Jesus' mission was intended to end in his death, right from the start eg Mark 2:20, and Jesus had many opportunities to escape, which he didn't take (as all the 'let this cup pass from me' scenes show ─ Mark 14:36, Matthew 26:39, Luke 22:42, and John gives him a whole suicide note John 17:1-13). Therefore in all the stories he had ample opportunity to prevent Judas from reporting him to the authorities, and to escape if Judas did. But no, he was intent on dying, and he needed Judas, or someone in Judas' place, to turn him in to the authorities. Jesus used him, in other words. (You'll recall Judas makes a similar complaint at the end of Jesus Christ, Superstar.)
[Did he ever pay compensation to the owners of the pigs he sent over the cliff?] They could have been wild pigs on a mountain. Even if Jesus didnt pay the owner back, that is not a sin.
Were there wild pigs in those places and times? Anyway, it's dang sure not how I was taught to act, and dang sure not how we taught our kids to act.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Considering that each of the five NT versions of Jesus expressly denies he's God and never once claims to be God, they got that part of the story wrong.

The fact remains that Mark's Jesus at the least had to have his sins washed off before he could become son of God.
Please quote me the part where Jesus dies claiming divinity. I'm not aware of any such part. As I said, each of the versions of Jesus is unambiguous in denying he's God.

Jesus was executed for blasphemy--as you know from your knowledge of the four gospels--blasphemy isn't saying "God damn this" but equating oneself with God--Jesus said He is coming from the clouds at the right hand of God--a clear allusion to the God Messiah of Daniel.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
[Jesus died claiming divinity. God is without sin and died on the cross IMHO to pay our sin.]

I'm trying to figure out where your getting this from. Do you have a verse on this?

You meJesus died claiming divinity.... Are you saying that Jesus thought that he was God or "a god"? And you mentioned that God died on the cross. No, that's wrong, God doesnt die. Jesus died, he was a man on the cross. What makes you say that Jesus "paided" for our sins? This was not a substitutionary event where Jesus died so we dont have to. This was out of love on his Father's part. What did Jesus accomplished on the cross? Do you think that God was punishing His son?



Thanks for your posts. Great questions too!!

Ok, first of all. Do you really think that Jesus sinned when scripture tells us that he didnt. So... why did Jesus get baptised? Great question!!

Mark 1 only tells us that Jesus was baptised, nothing about Jesus's sins. Does not say anything about Jesus having sins to be forgiven too. We always have to remember that everything is of GOD. Jesus was baptised to make GOD right. To make God right in that our sin nature, that is prone to sin, has to be put to death. (Romans 6). Having your sins forgiven is just a sub-catagory of this reason. We follow Jesus into his death and his life when we get baptised. We are also then, now in a covenant relationship with our Creator and we are now "in Christ" or "put on Christ" with Jesus. (Gal 3). And.... we are now in the promises with Abraham and Christ. So there are many benifits to getting baptised. It's not just the forgiveness of sins, though that is a big part of it.

Jesus is also showing us that this is what I want you to do. Follow me. This is the way, walk ye in it.

[So it was the baptism, the washing away of sins with water, that prepared Mark's Jesus for adoption as the Son of God, just as David had become Son of God.]
Jesus was the son of God before he was baptised. Baptism didnt make Jesus the son of God. David became the son of God? Or.... are you saying, one of the "sons of God", like us. ... not sure what your really saying here.

Let's start with the clear reference in both testaments that all those who are crucified on a tree are cursed of God--yes, Jesus switched places with us, taking the punishment we deserve.

We are not saved IMHO by following Jesus--no one can do that fully--but because He 1) forgives us now 2) perfect us later. Only perfect people can live harmoniously in a perfect place with a perfect God.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
Let's start with the clear reference in both testaments that all those who are crucified on a tree are cursed of God--yes, Jesus switched places with us, taking the punishment we deserve.

We are not saved IMHO by following Jesus--no one can do that fully--but because He 1) forgives us now 2) perfect us later. Only perfect people can live harmoniously in a perfect place with a perfect God.

[Let's start with the clear reference in both testaments that all those who are crucified on a tree are cursed of God--yes, Jesus switched places with us, taking the punishment we deserve.]

I take it you believe in substitution? If you do, that's wrong. And this was not a punishment from God, it was out of love that he did it. And what do you mean that Jesus switched places with us?.... In what way. So Jesus did all of the work that we dont have to do anything? Once saved always saved? We still have to die. We still have to walk a special through life, still have to be baptised, still have to ask God for our sins to be forgiven.

The secret of the cross is love, the love of God and the love of His Son. Whatever else we many have to consider, let us lay down this foundation: The motivating force for redemption is love,

John 3v16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Romans 5v8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Gal. 2v20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Love is the reason for redemption. Love flowed first from God and therefore from the Son whom He sent into the world. Love cannot be and must not be reduced to law or considered in terms of rights and earnings. Love owes nothing to any goodness or merit in us. Loves comes from God who is "merciful and gracious".

The cross is a source of the forgiveness of sins. It is not a debt settled by due payment. It is not a substitutionary offering whereby someone is paid a price so that others might then go free. No, the cross is the means of forgiveness and forgiveness is an act of grace and not of the rights or earnings by the settlement of a debt.

God didnt punish his son on the cross, it was out of love that he did it.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus was executed for blasphemy--as you know from your knowledge of the four gospels--blasphemy isn't saying "God damn this" but equating oneself with God--Jesus said He is coming from the clouds at the right hand of God--a clear allusion to the God Messiah of Daniel.
If the charge is that Jesus claims to be God then that's what is technically known as a bum rap. All five NT versions of him say they're God's envoy. Not one says "I'm God" and each of the five says clearly that he's not God.

Nothing Daniel says or doesn't say will change that.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
If the charge is that Jesus claims to be God then that's what is technically known as a bum rap. All five NT versions of him say they're God's envoy. Not one says "I'm God" and each of the five says clearly that he's not God.

Nothing Daniel says or doesn't say will change that.

Jesus never did claim to be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who is the Lord God our savior. Jesus was the prophet chosen by the Lord, who filled him with his spirit, His words, on the day that Jesus was baptised, and Jesus spoke not one word on his own authority but only that which the Lord commanded him to say.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
[Let's start with the clear reference in both testaments that all those who are crucified on a tree are cursed of God--yes, Jesus switched places with us, taking the punishment we deserve.]

I take it you believe in substitution? If you do, that's wrong. And this was not a punishment from God, it was out of love that he did it. And what do you mean that Jesus switched places with us?.... In what way. So Jesus did all of the work that we dont have to do anything? Once saved always saved? We still have to die. We still have to walk a special through life, still have to be baptised, still have to ask God for our sins to be forgiven.

The secret of the cross is love, the love of God and the love of His Son. Whatever else we many have to consider, let us lay down this foundation: The motivating force for redemption is love,

John 3v16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Romans 5v8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Gal. 2v20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Love is the reason for redemption. Love flowed first from God and therefore from the Son whom He sent into the world. Love cannot be and must not be reduced to law or considered in terms of rights and earnings. Love owes nothing to any goodness or merit in us. Loves comes from God who is "merciful and gracious".

The cross is a source of the forgiveness of sins. It is not a debt settled by due payment. It is not a substitutionary offering whereby someone is paid a price so that others might then go free. No, the cross is the means of forgiveness and forgiveness is an act of grace and not of the rights or earnings by the settlement of a debt.

God didnt punish his son on the cross, it was out of love that he did it.

Let me repeat once again.

Deuteronomy 18: 18-19; YHVH, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says to Moses; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he and he shall speak to them all that I command, and whosoever will not heed MY WORDS, which he shall speak in MY NAME, I will punish, etc.

Peter confirms that Jesus was that man, when, concerning the man Jesus, he says in. Acts 3: 22; For Moses said; "The Lord your God will send you a prophet, just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc."

Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD" Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had promised that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

Acts 3:19; “Repent then and turn to God, (Not to Jesus, but to God) so that He (God) will forgive your sins. If you do, times of spiritual strength will come from the Lord, and He will send Jesus, who is the Messiah that he has already CHOSEN for you.” The man Jesus, was chosen and made both Lord and saviour by “Who I Am”.

Acts 3:13; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus.

Act 17: 31; For he (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.) has fixed a day in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a man he has chosen. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that man from death.

Isaiah 42: 1; The Lord says, "Here is my servant, whom I strengthen---the one I have CHOSEN, with whom I am pleased. I have filled him with my spirit (Which descended upon him in the form of a dove, as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my beloved in whom I am pleased, TODAY I have become your Father.) and he will bring justice to every nation.

1st Timothy 1:1; “From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by order of “GOD OUR SAVIOUR” and Christ Jesus “OUR HOPE.”

Jesus said to Mary Magdalen in John 20: 17; “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Whose words were these in reference to the body of Jesus which had been filled by the spirit=information=words of the Lord which had descended upon him in the form of a dove? “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up?”

They were the words that Jesus was commanded to say by “Who I Am,” who raised the body of Jesus, the earthly temple, which had been filled with his spirit.

Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

Acts 17: 31; For He (The Lord God our saviour) has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

It was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who said through his obedient servant Jesus; “Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up.”
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus never did claim to be the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who is the Lord God our savior. Jesus was the prophet chosen by the Lord, who filled him with his spirit, His words, on the day that Jesus was baptised, and Jesus spoke not one word on his own authority but only that which the Lord commanded him to say.
He's seen as a prophet in Islam. In Christianity he's Savior, and also Christ or the Messiah, both meaning the anointed one ─ which doesn't quite fit the prophet mold. And in the 4th century he was promoted to God, albeit the Triune one.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
He's seen as a prophet in Islam. In Christianity he's Savior, and also Christ or the Messiah, both meaning the anointed one ─ which doesn't quite fit the prophet mold. And in the 4th century he was promoted to God, albeit the Triune one.

Well, I know from the scriptures, that Enoch at the age of 365, which is the same number of days in a calendar year, Oh that's right, the Lamb that takes on the sins of the world had to be an unblemished one year old Lamb, wasn't it?

But as I was saying, we know from the books of Enoch, that at the age of 365 he was taken to the throne of 'The Most High' in the creation, where he was anointed as the heir and successor to that throne, by Michael the archangel (Who was it who anointed the man Jesus, and for what reason was Jesus anointed?)

Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one" It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach. The Hebrew word translated "anointed" is the verb form of the noun "Messiah."

Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.

Hebrews 11: 5; "By faith Enoch was Translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.

Enoch, the most important man in the OT and the NT, and yet he has been rejected by both the Jewish church and the Roman church of Emperor Constantine.

"The Book of the Secrets of Enoch" 22: 8; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."

And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lord"s face.

[Archistratege. Or, "the commander of the armies of the nations, named Michael.

And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory." [Enoch, is the one who was anointed as the successor to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation: CHRIST=The anointed one]

And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun’s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

The author of the book of Hebrews who wrote, "By faith Enoch was Translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him," as with all the early Christians, cherished the books of Enoch, from which Jesus and his apostles taught, right up until the fourth century, when, under the ban of dogmatic authorities of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, such as Hilary, Jerome, and Augustine, they finally passed out of circulation and were thought lost for millennia.

The Book of Jubilees 4: 30; And he (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

After Enoch, the chosen cornerstone to who all the spirits of the righteous had been gathered in the creation of God's new temple of Light, which is to replace his old earthly tent (Mankind,) Enoch (The stone that the builders of the Roman church have rejected,) had been in the valley of Man, (The spiritual dimensional that coexists within our three dimensional world ) for three days, He, said to God, (The Most High In the creation) "Sacrifices and offerings you did not ask for, but a body you have prepared for me, etc." GNB Hebrews 10: 5.

Who was it do you think, who filled the ma, jesus with his spirit?
 
Last edited:

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, I know from the scriptures, that Enoch at the age of 365, which is the same number of days in a calendar year, Oh that's right, the Lamb that takes on the sins of the world had to be an unblemished one year old Lamb, wasn't it?

But as I was saying, we know from the books of Enoch, that at the age of 365 he was taken to the throne of 'The Most High' in the creation, where he was anointed as the heir and successor to that throne, by Michael the archangel (Who was it who anointed the man Jesus, and for what reason was Jesus anointed?)

Christ is the English term for the Greek Χριστός (Khristós) meaning "the anointed one" It is a translation of the Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (Māšîaḥ), usually transliterated into English as Messiah or Mashiach. The Hebrew word translated "anointed" is the verb form of the noun "Messiah."

Genesis 5: 23; Enoch was 365 and had spent his life in fellowship with God when he disappeared because God had Taken him.

Hebrews 11: 5; "By faith Enoch was Translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him.

Enoch, the most important man in the OT and the NT, and yet he has been rejected by both the Jewish church and the Roman church of Emperor Constantine.

"The Book of the Secrets of Enoch" 22: 8; "And I fell prone and bowed down to the Lord, and the Lord with his lips said to me: "Have courage, Enoch, do not fear, arise and stand before my face into eternity."

And the archistratiege Michael lifted me up, and led me before the Lord"s face.

[Archistratege. Or, "the commander of the armies of the nations, named Michael.

And the Lord said to Michael: "Go take Enoch from out his earthly garments, and anoint him with my sweet ointment, and put him into the garments of my glory." [Enoch, is the one who was anointed as the successor to the throne of the MOST HIGH in the creation: CHRIST=The anointed one]

And Michael did thus as the Lord told him. He anointed me, and dressed me, and the appearance of that ointment is more than the great light, and his ointment is like sweet dew, and its smell mild, shining like the sun’s rays, and I looked at myself, and was like one of his glorious ones.

The author of the book of Hebrews who wrote, "By faith Enoch was Translated (To change from one form to another) so that he should not experience death; and he was not found, because God had Translated him," as with all the early Christians, cherished the books of Enoch, from which Jesus and his apostles taught, right up until the fourth century, when, under the ban of dogmatic authorities of the Roman church of Emperor Constantine, such as Hilary, Jerome, and Augustine, they finally passed out of circulation and were thought lost for millennia.

The Book of Jubilees 4: 30; And he (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

After Enoch, the chosen cornerstone to who all the spirits of the righteous had been gathered in the creation of God's new temple of Light, which is to replace his old earthly tent (Mankind,) Enoch (The stone that the builders of the Roman church have rejected,) had been in the valley of Man, (The spiritual dimensional that coexists within our three dimensional world ) for three days, He, said to God, (The Most High In the creation) "Sacrifices and offerings you did not ask for, but a body you have prepared for me, etc." GNB Hebrews 10: 5.

Who was it do you think, who filled the ma, jesus with his spirit?
I'm interested in the bible as a set of ancient documents whose strength is often enough not history.

So I can approach its stories in two ways, first from the outside, where we look at the particular book's what, where, when, who and why, and second from the inside, where we look at what the story actually says, and in many instances see how that compares with theological claims about it.

I don't find any evidence that humans lived longer in neolithic or Bronze Age times than they do now, and I don't find any meaningful definition of the supernatural as an aspect of reality, so I take Enoch as a character in a minor religious story; if there was a real human behind those stories, we get almost no glimpse of him.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
[Let's start with the clear reference in both testaments that all those who are crucified on a tree are cursed of God--yes, Jesus switched places with us, taking the punishment we deserve.]

I take it you believe in substitution? If you do, that's wrong. And this was not a punishment from God, it was out of love that he did it. And what do you mean that Jesus switched places with us?.... In what way. So Jesus did all of the work that we dont have to do anything? Once saved always saved? We still have to die. We still have to walk a special through life, still have to be baptised, still have to ask God for our sins to be forgiven.

The secret of the cross is love, the love of God and the love of His Son. Whatever else we many have to consider, let us lay down this foundation: The motivating force for redemption is love,

John 3v16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Romans 5v8 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Gal. 2v20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Love is the reason for redemption. Love flowed first from God and therefore from the Son whom He sent into the world. Love cannot be and must not be reduced to law or considered in terms of rights and earnings. Love owes nothing to any goodness or merit in us. Loves comes from God who is "merciful and gracious".

The cross is a source of the forgiveness of sins. It is not a debt settled by due payment. It is not a substitutionary offering whereby someone is paid a price so that others might then go free. No, the cross is the means of forgiveness and forgiveness is an act of grace and not of the rights or earnings by the settlement of a debt.

God didnt punish his son on the cross, it was out of love that he did it.

Since the early days of the church, the church has had different ideas on Christ's work on the cross:

* substitution
* ransom
* an example of love
* atonement
* etc.

I believe it is all of these and more. But we are not saved by following Christ's example--that is, by doing works. IMHO, we are saved by simple trust in Christ, who died on Mount Moriah to pay what the annual Yom Kippur sacrifice could cover only on a temporary basis (Hebrews), our sin.

You said it wasn't, for example, a settlement of debt, yet Paul says "he's taken away the statement against us of debt." Persons in a Romans debtor's prison had their debts listed and hanging next to their prison cell. He paid our debts.

God DID punish Jesus for sin. He BECAME sin, cursed, on the cross. When atonement began after Gethsemane, His beard was plucked, his hair was pulled, He was spat upon and cursed, in fulfillment of OT prophecy. After all, priests have to LAY HANDS on sin sacrifices in Tanakh.

We Jewish Christians struggle to understand that innocent Yeshua was God and atonement, but He was and is . . . and is to come!
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
If the charge is that Jesus claims to be God then that's what is technically known as a bum rap. All five NT versions of him say they're God's envoy. Not one says "I'm God" and each of the five says clearly that he's not God.

Nothing Daniel says or doesn't say will change that.

If the charge is that Jesus claims to be God then that's what is technically known as a bum rap. All five NT versions of him say they're God's envoy. Not one says "I'm God" and each of the five says clearly that he's not God.

Nothing Daniel says or doesn't say will change that.

Jesus also made ironic statements like "Why call ME good? ONLY God is good!"

Yet both testaments say all humans sin and that Messiah Jesus is sinless. God is SINLESS = ULTIMATE GOOD = JESUS.

What Does the Bible Say About Jesus Is God?
 
Top