Jose Fly
Fisker of men
As always, it's vital to see these results as what they are.....trends and tendencies, not absolutes. So saying "I know a religious person who's also a scientist" does not negate, or even counter, the study's results.
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College students leaving religion: It's not "the science", it's "science"
- Thread starter Jose Fly
- Start date
It would be for me too had I not experienced first hand.
I can't speak for all religious folks in the US by any means, but I wouldn't call the spirituality I had healthy. I had to kind of step back and take a peek at what other folks were doing outside of my community before I had a point of reference outside of my own narrow world view to work with and recognize that.
I think that's probably one of the biggest weaknesses we have as a nation; we tend to have an inwardly veering gaze, so we exist in a very closed off and skewed little bubble. We don't really step out of that bubble, whether because of fear or comfort, so our point of view remains terribly biased according to our own little echo chamber/community we happen to be a part of.
This isn't just limited to religion, by the way.
exchemist
Veteran Member
The last assistant priest at our parish church had a degree in physics.
But in history many of the scientists were religious men. They were well-read and had a licence to spend time thinking and studying nature if they were so inclined, from William Buckland to Gregor Mendel, and on to Georges Lemaitre.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
"Spiritual, but not religious" is a phrase frequently used by those nones. They're also often big into pseudoscience as well.
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
My parents' Baptist church had a period of guest pastors come through and audition, after their older pastor retired. One of the pastors who tried out had a degree in biology and focused his sermon on why Christians shouldn't be anti-science.
They didn't ask him back.
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
Yep, the new-age woo stuff seems to be popular with some of them.
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
My mom was particularly upset at his message. She said something like "I don't go to church to be lectured about science".I guess Luke the doctor wouldn't be allowed in then either
Very stupid indeed.
At her age, I just smiled.
Perhaps they still need what religion offered,
& find substitutes with non-disprovable beliefs.
Jose Fly
Fisker of men
That's how I see it.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
If Jesus himself appeared and said the Genesis story is supposed to be a rough telling of the appearance of the cosmos and life on Earth but Moses messed up the details, many of these Christians would tell Jesus he is of the Devil and attempting to deceive them, and rebuke him in his name.I guess Luke the doctor wouldn't be allowed in then either
Very stupid indeed.
That can be said of all religions. You can demonstrate certain beliefs are very unlikely and highly improbable, but it's so unprovable that when we learned Dante just could not have traveled to Hell we evicted Satan from the Earth's core and booted Jehovah into a realm beyond the universe. And when it really gets whacky, it gets so unprovable that it all becomes metaphor. And it gets so defiant in the face of failure, it launches the goal post into realms of "all paths are valid" and "whatever works for you."
A common explanation for why US college students have been leaving Christianity is to attribute it to them taking biology, genetics, geology, etc., being taught information that contradicts their beliefs, realizing that much of what they were taught in church isn't true, and abandoning Christianity as a result.
However, a recent study indicates that it's not specific courses of study that's responsible, rather it's studying secular science at all and subsequently learning how to question assumptions and engage in critical thinking.
Inquiry, Not Science, as the Source of Secularization in Higher Education | Sociology of Religion | Oxford Academic (oup.com)
The traditional claim in the literature on religion and science is that exposure to science leads to secularity because the claims about the natural world in the two systems are incompatible. More recently, research has narrowed this claim and shown that conflict over knowledge in the USA is primarily limited to one religion—conservative Protestantism—and only to a few fact claims. In this paper, I test this claim using longitudinal data from matched surveys taken in students’ first and fourth year of university. I find no evidence that the science is more secularizing than nonscience. I then turn to a distinction in university majors long used by sociologists of education—between majors focused on inquiry versus those focused on applying knowledge—and find that majors focused on inquiry are more likely to secularize than those focused on application. I interpret this to mean that learning to inquire secularizes.
That makes sense to me and is consistent with my experiences. I've kind of always been a critical thinker who questions everything, and it's always been a major stumbling block between me and religious friends, family, and institutions (churches). They've always struck me as a bit put off at my asking tough questions and not taking things merely on faith.
It's also nice to see that people who are raised in religious environments where critical thinking is discouraged can not only learn to engage in it, but can also enhance the skill.
I guess there's hope for everyone!
(h/t: friendly atheist)
Book of Mormon 2 Nephi 9:28-29
28 O that cunning aplan of the evil one! O the bvainness, and the frailties, and the cfoolishness of men! When they are dlearned they think they are ewise, and they fhearken not unto the gcounsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their hwisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.
29 But to be alearned is good if they bhearken unto the ccounsels of God.
I guess by mentioning New Age and eastern religions I am saying for the spiritual seeker critical thinking kind of goes full circle from narrow religion to narrow science and then on to a broader religion/science.
I know that. I was just saying that the US flavour of Christianity is a bit “odd.”
Colt
Well-Known Member
Science only debunks the superstitious component of religion. It has no effect in spiritual truth.A common explanation for why US college students have been leaving Christianity is to attribute it to them taking biology, genetics, geology, etc., being taught information that contradicts their beliefs, realizing that much of what they were taught in church isn't true, and abandoning Christianity as a result.
However, a recent study indicates that it's not specific courses of study that's responsible, rather it's studying secular science at all and subsequently learning how to question assumptions and engage in critical thinking.
Inquiry, Not Science, as the Source of Secularization in Higher Education | Sociology of Religion | Oxford Academic (oup.com)
The traditional claim in the literature on religion and science is that exposure to science leads to secularity because the claims about the natural world in the two systems are incompatible. More recently, research has narrowed this claim and shown that conflict over knowledge in the USA is primarily limited to one religion—conservative Protestantism—and only to a few fact claims. In this paper, I test this claim using longitudinal data from matched surveys taken in students’ first and fourth year of university. I find no evidence that the science is more secularizing than nonscience. I then turn to a distinction in university majors long used by sociologists of education—between majors focused on inquiry versus those focused on applying knowledge—and find that majors focused on inquiry are more likely to secularize than those focused on application. I interpret this to mean that learning to inquire secularizes.
That makes sense to me and is consistent with my experiences. I've kind of always been a critical thinker who questions everything, and it's always been a major stumbling block between me and religious friends, family, and institutions (churches). They've always struck me as a bit put off at my asking tough questions and not taking things merely on faith.
It's also nice to see that people who are raised in religious environments where critical thinking is discouraged can not only learn to engage in it, but can also enhance the skill.
I guess there's hope for everyone!
(h/t: friendly atheist)
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Just as the US is clearly a topic all its own.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
The article was about how scientific education leads to critical thinking and critical thinking is what ends religious beliefs. And critical thinking exposes the flaws in "spiritual truth" as well.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
A bit? No need for modesty.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
How does it do that?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Good question. It does so by leading one to realize that there is no reliable evidence for any religion. And the time to believe in something is after sufficient evidence has been supplied.
So even though I have seen Sasquatch with my very own eye multiple times I do not expect others to believe in him. It would be irrational for them to do so.