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Featured Christians. Heaven and hell

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Unveiled Artist, Jan 11, 2021.

  1. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Their entire understanding of the Bible is whack. They take passages stating Satan has power over this world to mean he everywhere trying to take over the world and lead people away from god, amd the idea of the devil being like a roaring lion to mean he is lurking behind every corner and in every shadow waiting to tempt Christians away from god. Amd they see the devil in everything.
     
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  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Yes you did and that was obvious, but I forgot the point you were making about it, if any. o_O
     
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    That is what I have been saying for years, that the Christians misinterpret much of the Bible and thus they misunderstand what it means, but since I am a Baha'i I get flack for saying that. Some Christians say I am "changing the Bible." but I am not changing anything, I just interpret it differently than they do, and who is to say that they have the correct interpretation anyway? Who is to say that Satan is a real entity rather than the lower selfish nature of man as I believe?

    They devil is used as a reason and an excuse for any number of things that they don't want to look at their role in.
     
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  4. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    :eek:
    There has to be a point?

    WTF!?!
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    No, there doesn't have to be a point. :)
     
  6. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    I cannot agree more.
     
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  7. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    ah hell, I already dug out the pencil sharpener...
     
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  8. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Does "congregation of the Lord" have anything to do with heaven? And just because one is not in the "congregation" are they in hell?
     
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  9. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Relevance?
    Or is it your claim that being barred from heaven is the only thing that counts as a "punishment"?
     
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  10. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Since children don't have free will since no one is born believing in god, do they find union with god or do they not?
     
  11. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    Who claims that one must believe in god to have free will?
     
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  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I am not sure what you are asking me. Do you mean that if children die before they are old enough to choose whether to believe in God of not, do they find union with God in heaven? I cannot say for certain, but below is what is in the Baha'i Writings, so it seems to me that they will find union with God in the spiritual world (heaven).

    THE IMMORTALITY OF CHILDREN

    Question.—What is the condition of children who die before attaining the age of discretion or before the appointed time of birth?

    Answer.—These infants are under the shadow of the favor of God; and as they have not committed any sin and are not soiled with the impurities of the world of nature, they are the centers of the manifestation of bounty, and the Eye of Compassion will be turned upon them. Some Answered Questions, p. 240
     
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  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Nobody needs to believe in God in order to have free will, but one has to have free will in order to choose to believe in God.
     
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  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I'd like to know what "hell" means in that statement....? Does this "separation" involve suffering?

    In the Bible, sin has consequences.....sin is responsible for death. No matter how death is delivered, it has the same outcome for all. Death is the opposite of life...eternal death is the opposite of eternal life. Where does the Bible say otherwise?

    "The grave" in ancient Jewish understanding (as opposed to modern day beliefs) was the receptacle for the person (soul) that had passed away. (Ezekiel 18:4) They had no belief in an immortal soul. That came later.

    This is what King Solomon wrote....

    Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10....
    "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten. . . . .Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, [sheol] where you are going. (Jewish Tanakh)

    "Sheol is the rendered "hades" in the Greek Septuagint. So "sheol" and "hades" simply mean the grave. There is no such place as a fiery "hell" for the wicked. That idea does not come from the Bible. Jesus never taught about such a thing.

    I see no mention of universal salvation in the Bible. Salvation is something that a person has to qualify for, individually....it does not apply collectively as if you belong to some club and it gives you all a free pass.

    1 John 2:15-17...
    "Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever."


    It is the 'doing of God's will' that sees Christ's disciples "remain" when others are eliminated. We have to prove ourselves worthy of being spared when God again brings this world to an accounting. We are being "saved" from God's anger at what humans, alienated from him, have done to his Earth.

    Using the Biblical example of Noah, we see that God found only one righteous man among a whole generation of wicked people. No others were saved when God found it necessary to curb the wanton violence and immorality that had become rife in the earth. Jesus used this as an example of what would occur again when he was to return.

    Matthew 24:37-39...
    "For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be."

    Noah warned the people of what was coming but they did not believe him and carried on with their violent and immoral lives......there was nothing unusual according to them. Their children would grow up to emulate their parents, so God took them away too. This was the life they were used to...the only life they knew.....but God brought the deluge, just as he said he would. We expect the world to be similarly filled with violence and immorality as these "last days" draw to a close. (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

    Discerning what God's purpose was in putting humankind on this planet as tenants and caretakers is important because part of the reason why our tenancy here can be terminated is because we have failed miserably to take care of the earth, its creatures, or each other. There is a tenancy agreement and rules to abide by....the ,majority of mankind have failed to obey the rules and will therefore suffer eviction. God will then have the ones he saved clean up the mess and become the sole occupants of this beautiful planet. eager to return it to its paradisaic beauty so that all can enjoy it.

    Revelation 21:3-4 encapsulates the purpose for it all.....
    "With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

    If we are part of those "former things"...supporting thoughts, actions and lifestyles that are against God and his creation, then we will go down with them.
    God can only "be with" those who obey him and respect his creation. Their reward is everlasting life in paradise on earth. This is not a training ground for heaven.....this Earth was designed to be mankind's permanent home.

    Psalm 37:10-11, 29...
    "Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more;
    You will look at where they were,
    And they will not be there.

    11 But the meek will possess the earth,
    And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.. . . .

    The righteous will possess the earth,
    And they will live forever on it."

    Jesus promised that the "meek shall inherit the earth" so the planet isn't going anywhere and neither are we.


    Nowhere did God or Jesus promise life in heaven for everyone. He never designed mankind to live anywhere but here on Earth...forever. That is how I understand the scriptures.
     
  15. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for making it clearer. Baha’is do not believe we are born sinners but instead in the image of God, with a clean slate. No one is born condemned or a sinner according to the Bahá’í teachings.
     
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  16. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    “Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings.”

    (Shoghi Effendi)
     
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  17. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    You are very honest indeed (admitting "stealing"). I remember from your previous thread mentioning "you never lied"

    I remember a nice story. There was a thief who met a Master asking about Heaven.
    The Master told him "I only ask from you to stop lying from now on. You can continue stealing, as long as you speak the truth".

    So, if this story is true then you (@Unveiled Artist ) have secured a place in Heaven.

    Note: Nice new Avatar-picture you have
     
  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    In christian belief, free will is the choice whether to believe or reject god. That's not possible if one doesn't believe god exist. That's what the age of accountability is really. Since children are not born god believers, I'd assume they'd go to hell even if they heard the word.
     
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Hmm. What would be considered a sin to a child?

    Children hit, yell at their parents, and so forth. So, as an adult, these same things, I'd assume, wouldn't determine the eternal relationship one has with god.
     
  20. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Putting the terminology aside for a minute. That's not necessarily the point. Are children saved by virtue of being children or are they separated from god after death for eternity?

    The usage of universal salvation, heaven, and hell et cetera are used to make this point. Obeying rules and the obligations a christian has to god and scripture as an adult isn't related to the question.
     
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