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Christians. Heaven and hell

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

That is pure blarney.
Every day I read more things in the Bible that are obviously false, making me wonder how much of it is actually true..
Their entire understanding of the Bible is whack. They take passages stating Satan has power over this world to mean he everywhere trying to take over the world and lead people away from god, amd the idea of the devil being like a roaring lion to mean he is lurking behind every corner and in every shadow waiting to tempt Christians away from god. Amd they see the devil in everything.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I realize now that I should have been more specific.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
I assumed that with the word "Bible" being used not once, but twice, in the post I replied to and that I presented a verse from the very same Bible....:rolleyes::rolleyes:


:p:p
More smilies makes me the winner!
Now I must fly on home and claim my victory!!
Yes you did and that was obvious, but I forgot the point you were making about it, if any. o_O
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Their entire understanding of the Bible is whack. They take passages stating Satan has power over this world to mean he everywhere trying to take over the world and lead people away from god, amd the idea of the devil being like a roaring lion to mean he is lurking behind every corner and in every shadow waiting to tempt Christians away from god. Amd they see the devil in everything.
That is what I have been saying for years, that the Christians misinterpret much of the Bible and thus they misunderstand what it means, but since I am a Baha'i I get flack for saying that. Some Christians say I am "changing the Bible." but I am not changing anything, I just interpret it differently than they do, and who is to say that they have the correct interpretation anyway? Who is to say that Satan is a real entity rather than the lower selfish nature of man as I believe?

They devil is used as a reason and an excuse for any number of things that they don't want to look at their role in.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Except that god DOES in fact punish children for the sins of their parents.
clear up to TEN GENERATIONS of children:

Deuteronomy 23:2 KJV
A ******* shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.​
Does "congregation of the Lord" have anything to do with heaven? And just because one is not in the "congregation" are they in hell?
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I do not believe that God necessarily punishes us or rewards us, although in some cases God might do that. Humans are rewarded or punished by the choices they make and actions that result from those choices. So we are rewarded or punished according to our own actions. We are rewarded when we do good deeds and we are punished when we do bad or evil deeds. The good or evil we did in this world carries over to the afterlife since we will be exactly what we have become by living in this world.

There are rewards and punishments in both this world and in the afterlife. In fact, the structure of world stability and order has been reared upon, and will continue to be sustained by, the twin pillars of reward and punishment. If we do good deeds in this world we are rewarded and if we do bad or evil deeds we are punished. Likewise, in the afterlife we will be rewarded for what we have done good and punished for what we have done bad deeds. It is not God who will be handing out the rewards and punishments, they will simply accrue to us as the result of our actions here.

People will reap what they sow, so even if they get away with evil acts in this world and do not get punished by the justice system, they will be punished in the afterlife. How God will factor in to that punishment I do not know. Some evil people will not even realize they are evil after they die, so they will simply continue to suffer in their evil state unless someone helps them, although there is no guarantee of that.

We all have free will in this world in order to shape our destiny and prepare our souls for the afterlife, but we will not have free will in the afterlife. Where we wind up will be according to who we were in this world, what we did with our lives. That is why it is so important not to waste our lives. It is not really beliefs that are important, it is actions. The importance of beliefs is that help us to know what good actions are, according to God, who sets those standards.

Baha'is are enjoined not to do what we do for a reward in heaven but I believe there will be a reward for those who have recognized Baha'u'llah, in this life and the next life.

“It behoveth him to fix his gaze upon the fundamentals of His Faith, and to labor diligently for its propagation. Wholly for the sake of God he should proclaim His Message, and with that same spirit accept whatever response his words may evoke in his hearer. He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 339

Since children don't have free will since no one is born believing in god, do they find union with god or do they not?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Since children don't have free will since no one is born believing in god, do they find union with god or do they not?
I am not sure what you are asking me. Do you mean that if children die before they are old enough to choose whether to believe in God of not, do they find union with God in heaven? I cannot say for certain, but below is what is in the Baha'i Writings, so it seems to me that they will find union with God in the spiritual world (heaven).

THE IMMORTALITY OF CHILDREN

Question.—What is the condition of children who die before attaining the age of discretion or before the appointed time of birth?

Answer.—These infants are under the shadow of the favor of God; and as they have not committed any sin and are not soiled with the impurities of the world of nature, they are the centers of the manifestation of bounty, and the Eye of Compassion will be turned upon them. Some Answered Questions, p. 240
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I "stole" this from another thread in hopes to get a straight forward answer.

If you believe that we all deserve hell (separation from God) because of adam and eve, how does it sit with you thousands of kids who die will not be with God?

I'd like to know what "hell" means in that statement....? Does this "separation" involve suffering?

In the Bible, sin has consequences.....sin is responsible for death. No matter how death is delivered, it has the same outcome for all. Death is the opposite of life...eternal death is the opposite of eternal life. Where does the Bible say otherwise?

"The grave" in ancient Jewish understanding (as opposed to modern day beliefs) was the receptacle for the person (soul) that had passed away. (Ezekiel 18:4) They had no belief in an immortal soul. That came later.

This is what King Solomon wrote....

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten. . . . .Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, [sheol] where you are going. (Jewish Tanakh)

"Sheol is the rendered "hades" in the Greek Septuagint. So "sheol" and "hades" simply mean the grave. There is no such place as a fiery "hell" for the wicked. That idea does not come from the Bible. Jesus never taught about such a thing.

I'm assuming JW doesn't believe in universal salvation so I'm especially interested in what they say "too."

On that note do muslims who wish to converse as well, and bahai believe in universal salvation (union with God).

I see no mention of universal salvation in the Bible. Salvation is something that a person has to qualify for, individually....it does not apply collectively as if you belong to some club and it gives you all a free pass.

1 John 2:15-17...
"Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever."


It is the 'doing of God's will' that sees Christ's disciples "remain" when others are eliminated. We have to prove ourselves worthy of being spared when God again brings this world to an accounting. We are being "saved" from God's anger at what humans, alienated from him, have done to his Earth.

Using the Biblical example of Noah, we see that God found only one righteous man among a whole generation of wicked people. No others were saved when God found it necessary to curb the wanton violence and immorality that had become rife in the earth. Jesus used this as an example of what would occur again when he was to return.

Matthew 24:37-39...
"For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be."

Noah warned the people of what was coming but they did not believe him and carried on with their violent and immoral lives......there was nothing unusual according to them. Their children would grow up to emulate their parents, so God took them away too. This was the life they were used to...the only life they knew.....but God brought the deluge, just as he said he would. We expect the world to be similarly filled with violence and immorality as these "last days" draw to a close. (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

This is going by Bible, quran, and bahai scrpitures. Please include your opinions and be willing to discuss them.

Discerning what God's purpose was in putting humankind on this planet as tenants and caretakers is important because part of the reason why our tenancy here can be terminated is because we have failed miserably to take care of the earth, its creatures, or each other. There is a tenancy agreement and rules to abide by....the ,majority of mankind have failed to obey the rules and will therefore suffer eviction. God will then have the ones he saved clean up the mess and become the sole occupants of this beautiful planet. eager to return it to its paradisaic beauty so that all can enjoy it.

Revelation 21:3-4 encapsulates the purpose for it all.....
"With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

If we are part of those "former things"...supporting thoughts, actions and lifestyles that are against God and his creation, then we will go down with them.
God can only "be with" those who obey him and respect his creation. Their reward is everlasting life in paradise on earth. This is not a training ground for heaven.....this Earth was designed to be mankind's permanent home.

Psalm 37:10-11, 29...
"Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more;
You will look at where they were,
And they will not be there.

11 But the meek will possess the earth,
And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.. . . .

The righteous will possess the earth,
And they will live forever on it."

Jesus promised that the "meek shall inherit the earth" so the planet isn't going anywhere and neither are we.


Nowhere did God or Jesus promise life in heaven for everyone. He never designed mankind to live anywhere but here on Earth...forever. That is how I understand the scriptures.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Oh. Sorry. The argument in the thread was since we have inherited sin because of our "parents", children are doomed to hell (separation from god) because of the sin of their parents. They're not old enough to be accountable for sin so they're stuck in their parents sin without means of forgiveness.

Thanks for making it clearer. Baha’is do not believe we are born sinners but instead in the image of God, with a clean slate. No one is born condemned or a sinner according to the Bahá’í teachings.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I "stole" this from another thread in hopes to get a straight forward answer.

If you believe that we all deserve hell (separation from God) because of adam and eve, how does it sit with you thousands of kids who die will not be with God?

I'm assuming JW doesn't believe in universal salvation so I'm especially interested in what they say "too."

On that note do muslims who wish to converse as well, and bahai believe in universal salvation (union with God).

This is going by Bible, quran, and bahai scrpitures. Please include your opinions and be willing to discuss them.


“Heaven and hell are conditions within our own beings.”

(Shoghi Effendi)
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
"stole" this from another thread in hopes to get a straight forward answer.
You are very honest indeed (admitting "stealing"). I remember from your previous thread mentioning "you never lied"

I remember a nice story. There was a thief who met a Master asking about Heaven.
The Master told him "I only ask from you to stop lying from now on. You can continue stealing, as long as you speak the truth".

So, if this story is true then you (@Unveiled Artist ) have secured a place in Heaven.

Note: Nice new Avatar-picture you have
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Who claims that one must believe in god to have free will?

In christian belief, free will is the choice whether to believe or reject god. That's not possible if one doesn't believe god exist. That's what the age of accountability is really. Since children are not born god believers, I'd assume they'd go to hell even if they heard the word.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I am not sure what you are asking me. Do you mean that if children die before they are old enough to choose whether to believe in God of not, do they find union with God in heaven? I cannot say for certain, but below is what is in the Baha'i Writings, so it seems to me that they will find union with God in the spiritual world (heaven).

Hmm. What would be considered a sin to a child?

Children hit, yell at their parents, and so forth. So, as an adult, these same things, I'd assume, wouldn't determine the eternal relationship one has with god.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I'd like to know what "hell" means in that statement....? Does this "separation" involve suffering?

In the Bible, sin has consequences.....sin is responsible for death. No matter how death is delivered, it has the same outcome for all. Death is the opposite of life...eternal death is the opposite of eternal life. Where does the Bible say otherwise?

"The grave" in ancient Jewish understanding (as opposed to modern day beliefs) was the receptacle for the person (soul) that had passed away. (Ezekiel 18:4) They had no belief in an immortal soul. That came later.

This is what King Solomon wrote....

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for their remembrance is forgotten. . . . .Whatever your hand attains to do [as long as you are] with your strength, do; for there is neither deed nor reckoning, neither knowledge nor wisdom in the grave, [sheol] where you are going. (Jewish Tanakh)

"Sheol is the rendered "hades" in the Greek Septuagint. So "sheol" and "hades" simply mean the grave. There is no such place as a fiery "hell" for the wicked. That idea does not come from the Bible. Jesus never taught about such a thing.



I see no mention of universal salvation in the Bible. Salvation is something that a person has to qualify for, individually....it does not apply collectively as if you belong to some club and it gives you all a free pass.

1 John 2:15-17...
"Do not love either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; 16 because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. 17 Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but the one who does the will of God remains forever."


It is the 'doing of God's will' that sees Christ's disciples "remain" when others are eliminated. We have to prove ourselves worthy of being spared when God again brings this world to an accounting. We are being "saved" from God's anger at what humans, alienated from him, have done to his Earth.

Using the Biblical example of Noah, we see that God found only one righteous man among a whole generation of wicked people. No others were saved when God found it necessary to curb the wanton violence and immorality that had become rife in the earth. Jesus used this as an example of what would occur again when he was to return.

Matthew 24:37-39...
"For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be."

Noah warned the people of what was coming but they did not believe him and carried on with their violent and immoral lives......there was nothing unusual according to them. Their children would grow up to emulate their parents, so God took them away too. This was the life they were used to...the only life they knew.....but God brought the deluge, just as he said he would. We expect the world to be similarly filled with violence and immorality as these "last days" draw to a close. (2 Timothy 3:1-5)



Discerning what God's purpose was in putting humankind on this planet as tenants and caretakers is important because part of the reason why our tenancy here can be terminated is because we have failed miserably to take care of the earth, its creatures, or each other. There is a tenancy agreement and rules to abide by....the ,majority of mankind have failed to obey the rules and will therefore suffer eviction. God will then have the ones he saved clean up the mess and become the sole occupants of this beautiful planet. eager to return it to its paradisaic beauty so that all can enjoy it.

Revelation 21:3-4 encapsulates the purpose for it all.....
"With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

If we are part of those "former things"...supporting thoughts, actions and lifestyles that are against God and his creation, then we will go down with them.
God can only "be with" those who obey him and respect his creation. Their reward is everlasting life in paradise on earth. This is not a training ground for heaven.....this Earth was designed to be mankind's permanent home.

Psalm 37:10-11, 29...
"Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more;
You will look at where they were,
And they will not be there.

11 But the meek will possess the earth,
And they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.. . . .

The righteous will possess the earth,
And they will live forever on it."

Jesus promised that the "meek shall inherit the earth" so the planet isn't going anywhere and neither are we.


Nowhere did God or Jesus promise life in heaven for everyone. He never designed mankind to live anywhere but here on Earth...forever. That is how I understand the scriptures.

Putting the terminology aside for a minute. That's not necessarily the point. Are children saved by virtue of being children or are they separated from god after death for eternity?

The usage of universal salvation, heaven, and hell et cetera are used to make this point. Obeying rules and the obligations a christian has to god and scripture as an adult isn't related to the question.
 
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