athanasius
Well-Known Member
Hello and Peace to you Mr writer. This is Athanasius. I was reflecting today on our past conversations and I felt the Lord speak to my heart. I just wanted to apologize to you for any rude or inflammatory thing I may have said to you in our past dialogues.
While I do believe that I have demonstrated alot of Biblical and historical truth about the Blessed Mother, I may have done so surrounded by crass remarks to you in addition. And that is not right of me. I repent and have promise the Lord Jesus that from now on I will try my best not to say anything that is rude-minded or personal attack.
I, and the Catholic Church believe that you Mr writer and all Protestants ARE Christian and possess alot of Good and truth. We just believe that our separated brothers and sisters do not have the fullness of truth as found in the Catholic faith. So, On this friday, as all fridays we Catholics remember the Lord dying for our sins.
I ask the Lord to take control of Our conversation and let him cover us in his Holy and Powerful Blood. Please forgive me for my wrong doings. As Scripture says Love conquers multitude of sins. And it is that kind of Love and Charity I wish to give you my brother in Christ when dialoguing with you. Amen. Now I would like to in Charity answer some of the questions you gave to Mr Victor.
Mr Writer you have ask Victor this question:
Physically bow before statues?
My answer:
Thank you brother for your good questions. It would depend on what you mean by the word Before. If you mean the word before like it is used in (Ex 20:4-5) which simply means to worship the statue as a God like they did with the Golden Calf, then No we do not bow or kneel before them in that sense.
That is because the Catholic church teaches us not to worship any other Gods. For we have one God as exodus says. But if you mean the word Before in the modern english sense that means simply just kneeling in front of a statue, then yes we do sometimes kneel in front of statues. This may confuse alot of people who have not been brought up Catholic.
They usually tend to think that we worship the statue or the person it represents. But nothing could be further from the truth. We do not worship anything or any one but God alone. When we bow down or kneel in front of statues, we simply give veneration to the Person whom that statue represents. And veneration, even bowing to another human being is ok as long as you do not worship that person(1 Kings 2:19-20).
It would be like kissing a picture of your mother. You do not worship that picture. You just venerate her and remember what she did and what God did for her. I today kissed the feet of a crucifix of Our Lord. I in no way worshipped that Crucifix, But I did remember how Christ loved me and I kissed a image of that to show my appreciation for his love. I hope that helps.
You also asked victor:
Revelation 5:8 mentions prayers (golden bowls) to the praying Lamb on the throne. Not prayers to Mary!
My response
Thank you again for your honesty and intrigue . It is true, this passage does not mention the Blessed Virgin. But what this passage does do is it shows us that there are people(Elders) in heaven around the throne of God that take our prayers(the saints on earth) to God.
In other words it shows us that the-saints in heaven intercede before God for the saints down here on earth. This is important because logically in order for them to intercede our petitions and prayers to God for us, someone must be asking them to pray for us. Thus, this is where we catholics get the biblical concept of asking departed saints to pray for us. If the Saints in heaven can intercede for us we certainly believe that our Blessed Lady can given that she is the queen of the apostles(Rev 12:1)
This is a practice that goes all the way back to antiquity in the early church and it was practiced way before the new testament canon was even recognized and declared. It is apparent in the artwork of the early Christian catacombs. No one ever really had a problem with it or believed it to contrary to the written or oral word of God. I hope that helps
You said
What does "celebrated memorials" mean? Assuming it means something religious or superstitious: that's Augustine's and those with hims' problem. Not mine. And certainly zero to do with the apostles' or Christ's words or pattern.
My answer:
In this case, celebrated memorials meant celebrating the sacrifice of the eucharist in worship and memorial, ie...the Mass. We understand this from the last supper. The last supper was considered the fulfillment of the Passover memorial sacrifice (ex 12:8), where the Lamb of God had to be slaughtered, then its blood had to be applied to the door post of the believer, then his flesh had to be eaten in a meal.
Christ Jesus is the typological fulfillment of the Lamb of God(John 1:29). Christ Jesus then is slaughtered for us on the cross, and sheds his blood(John 19:17-37). He give his apostles the command of celebrating his New sacrificial passover memorial at the last supper(1 Cor 11:23-26) which is a mystical sharing in his sacrifice of his body and blood on Calvary(1 Cor 10:16) doing this in memory or memorial of him.
So thats what was believed by Augustines statements. Also, in the Liturgy in the early church, they would celebrate feast days for martyrs and saints as a way of commemorating what God has done for that person in history and give God glory through veneration of his creation. So Augustine is talking about feast days or special Masses for the martyrs and saints.
You said
The "altar of God" in the New Testament is Christ Himself, with His cross. Not a physical altar, or piece of furniture in a physical structure on earth. Contrary to how Christianity, both Protestantism and Catholicism, may loosely speak.Which is also an example of how Christianity, religion in general, tends to Judiaize. Rather than practice the spirit There's no current physical altar in the church's practice
My answer
Yes amen! You are right. The Cross really was the alter where the Bloody sacrifice of Calvary took place. However, Jesus being God, gave his Church a real sharing in that Sacrifice(1 Cor 10:16, 11:27) in holy communion. So it has always been understood ever since the beginning that the Lords supper was the same sacrifice as that of Calvary but, only under a non-bloody form.
Namely the form of Bread and wine(which by Christ word really became his real substantial Body and Blood). This unbloody Sacrifice of the Last supper was one in the same as his sacrifice on the cross except on thing, In the celebration of the eucharist Jesus doesn't die again, he died once and for all. He just re-presents his once and for all sacrifice on the cross in a unbloody way to the apostles and to all of us under the form of a memorial meal.
I hope that didnt confuse you to much. The apostles certainly did haver alters and believed the eucharist to be a sacrifice. Consider these quotes from Paul:
" Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he? (1 Cor 10:18-22)
Here Paul compares the eucharist(the Cup of the Lord) to demonic food sacrifice to Idols. Paul makes a great point, when he says are those who east the sacrifices partners in the alter .....then he says we cannot partake of the table(Or alter implied) of the Lord and table(Alter) of the demons. So paul alludes to having alters for the eucharistic sacrifice of the last supper.
Again listen to Paul in his letters tot he Hebrews:
"Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings; for it is well that the heart be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited their adherents. We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat." (Heb 13:9-10)
Here Paul compares the old testament priesthood and sacrificial foods to ours in the eucharist. Paul very plainly talks about the early church having a Alter from which we eat which no they do not have a right to eat from. The earliest documents we have from the apostolic era ie... the early fathers, taught this unanimously. I hope that didnt confuse you too much. Thanks for your patience.
Please see my next post for a answer to your other questions.. Gode bless you very much
While I do believe that I have demonstrated alot of Biblical and historical truth about the Blessed Mother, I may have done so surrounded by crass remarks to you in addition. And that is not right of me. I repent and have promise the Lord Jesus that from now on I will try my best not to say anything that is rude-minded or personal attack.
I, and the Catholic Church believe that you Mr writer and all Protestants ARE Christian and possess alot of Good and truth. We just believe that our separated brothers and sisters do not have the fullness of truth as found in the Catholic faith. So, On this friday, as all fridays we Catholics remember the Lord dying for our sins.
I ask the Lord to take control of Our conversation and let him cover us in his Holy and Powerful Blood. Please forgive me for my wrong doings. As Scripture says Love conquers multitude of sins. And it is that kind of Love and Charity I wish to give you my brother in Christ when dialoguing with you. Amen. Now I would like to in Charity answer some of the questions you gave to Mr Victor.
Mr Writer you have ask Victor this question:
Physically bow before statues?
My answer:
Thank you brother for your good questions. It would depend on what you mean by the word Before. If you mean the word before like it is used in (Ex 20:4-5) which simply means to worship the statue as a God like they did with the Golden Calf, then No we do not bow or kneel before them in that sense.
That is because the Catholic church teaches us not to worship any other Gods. For we have one God as exodus says. But if you mean the word Before in the modern english sense that means simply just kneeling in front of a statue, then yes we do sometimes kneel in front of statues. This may confuse alot of people who have not been brought up Catholic.
They usually tend to think that we worship the statue or the person it represents. But nothing could be further from the truth. We do not worship anything or any one but God alone. When we bow down or kneel in front of statues, we simply give veneration to the Person whom that statue represents. And veneration, even bowing to another human being is ok as long as you do not worship that person(1 Kings 2:19-20).
It would be like kissing a picture of your mother. You do not worship that picture. You just venerate her and remember what she did and what God did for her. I today kissed the feet of a crucifix of Our Lord. I in no way worshipped that Crucifix, But I did remember how Christ loved me and I kissed a image of that to show my appreciation for his love. I hope that helps.
You also asked victor:
Revelation 5:8 mentions prayers (golden bowls) to the praying Lamb on the throne. Not prayers to Mary!
My response
Thank you again for your honesty and intrigue . It is true, this passage does not mention the Blessed Virgin. But what this passage does do is it shows us that there are people(Elders) in heaven around the throne of God that take our prayers(the saints on earth) to God.
In other words it shows us that the-saints in heaven intercede before God for the saints down here on earth. This is important because logically in order for them to intercede our petitions and prayers to God for us, someone must be asking them to pray for us. Thus, this is where we catholics get the biblical concept of asking departed saints to pray for us. If the Saints in heaven can intercede for us we certainly believe that our Blessed Lady can given that she is the queen of the apostles(Rev 12:1)
This is a practice that goes all the way back to antiquity in the early church and it was practiced way before the new testament canon was even recognized and declared. It is apparent in the artwork of the early Christian catacombs. No one ever really had a problem with it or believed it to contrary to the written or oral word of God. I hope that helps
You said
What does "celebrated memorials" mean? Assuming it means something religious or superstitious: that's Augustine's and those with hims' problem. Not mine. And certainly zero to do with the apostles' or Christ's words or pattern.
My answer:
In this case, celebrated memorials meant celebrating the sacrifice of the eucharist in worship and memorial, ie...the Mass. We understand this from the last supper. The last supper was considered the fulfillment of the Passover memorial sacrifice (ex 12:8), where the Lamb of God had to be slaughtered, then its blood had to be applied to the door post of the believer, then his flesh had to be eaten in a meal.
Christ Jesus is the typological fulfillment of the Lamb of God(John 1:29). Christ Jesus then is slaughtered for us on the cross, and sheds his blood(John 19:17-37). He give his apostles the command of celebrating his New sacrificial passover memorial at the last supper(1 Cor 11:23-26) which is a mystical sharing in his sacrifice of his body and blood on Calvary(1 Cor 10:16) doing this in memory or memorial of him.
So thats what was believed by Augustines statements. Also, in the Liturgy in the early church, they would celebrate feast days for martyrs and saints as a way of commemorating what God has done for that person in history and give God glory through veneration of his creation. So Augustine is talking about feast days or special Masses for the martyrs and saints.
You said
The "altar of God" in the New Testament is Christ Himself, with His cross. Not a physical altar, or piece of furniture in a physical structure on earth. Contrary to how Christianity, both Protestantism and Catholicism, may loosely speak.Which is also an example of how Christianity, religion in general, tends to Judiaize. Rather than practice the spirit There's no current physical altar in the church's practice
My answer
Yes amen! You are right. The Cross really was the alter where the Bloody sacrifice of Calvary took place. However, Jesus being God, gave his Church a real sharing in that Sacrifice(1 Cor 10:16, 11:27) in holy communion. So it has always been understood ever since the beginning that the Lords supper was the same sacrifice as that of Calvary but, only under a non-bloody form.
Namely the form of Bread and wine(which by Christ word really became his real substantial Body and Blood). This unbloody Sacrifice of the Last supper was one in the same as his sacrifice on the cross except on thing, In the celebration of the eucharist Jesus doesn't die again, he died once and for all. He just re-presents his once and for all sacrifice on the cross in a unbloody way to the apostles and to all of us under the form of a memorial meal.
I hope that didnt confuse you to much. The apostles certainly did haver alters and believed the eucharist to be a sacrifice. Consider these quotes from Paul:
" Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he? (1 Cor 10:18-22)
Here Paul compares the eucharist(the Cup of the Lord) to demonic food sacrifice to Idols. Paul makes a great point, when he says are those who east the sacrifices partners in the alter .....then he says we cannot partake of the table(Or alter implied) of the Lord and table(Alter) of the demons. So paul alludes to having alters for the eucharistic sacrifice of the last supper.
Again listen to Paul in his letters tot he Hebrews:
"Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings; for it is well that the heart be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited their adherents. We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat." (Heb 13:9-10)
Here Paul compares the old testament priesthood and sacrificial foods to ours in the eucharist. Paul very plainly talks about the early church having a Alter from which we eat which no they do not have a right to eat from. The earliest documents we have from the apostolic era ie... the early fathers, taught this unanimously. I hope that didnt confuse you too much. Thanks for your patience.
Please see my next post for a answer to your other questions.. Gode bless you very much