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Christian: Mary, Mother of God

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Scott1, Aug 19, 2004.

  1. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    No problem Mr E....

    You still have not tackled my question: If Jesus was fully human, and you say that ALL humans sin..... did Jesus sin? If not, how is this possible for him, but not his mother?

    Scott
    p.s. Thanks for your story Melody. God bless you!
     
  2. Hirohito18200

    Hirohito18200 Member

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    Scott... First off thank you for the curriosity you are stirring up in me, I had no idea that the RCC held some of these beliefs that you are mentioning. You seem to be alluding *obviously* to the fact that Mary did not sin. I hate to say it this way, but due to my apparent lack of catholic knowlege, "are you serious??" Does the catholic church believe that a non-divine human can be sinless? Was mary a 'divine-human' (i have to ask), and what about original sin, because Mary would then be born with sin by nature...
    And could u site some references that would clearly point to Mary being sinless?
    thx
     
  3. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Hirohito,

    From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:


    The Immaculate Conception

    490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with gifts appropriate to such a role."132 The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace".133 In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace.

    491 Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God,134 was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854:

    The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin.135


    492 The "splendor of an entirely unique holiness" by which Mary is "enriched from the first instant of her conception" comes wholly from Christ: she is "redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son".136 The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love".137

    493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature".138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

    132 LG 56.
    133 Lk 1:28.
    134 Lk 1:28.
    135 Pius IX, Ineffabilis Deus (1854): DS 2803.
    136 LG 53, 56.
    137 Cf. Eph 1:3-4.
    138 LG 56.


    Hope this answers most of your questions....... somehow I think it will just create more! Looking forward to chatting with you.... love your signature!

    Scott
     
  4. Gunga_ann

    Gunga_ann Member

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    Mary is sin-less because God made her that way. Don't ask me how, because I do not know. It is a wonderful mystery.

    I, myself, love Mary! She is the best! She is my Mother, and she is just awesome!!! I ask her to pray for me, and I look up to her because at such a young age, she said "Yes". That is awesome!

    Ok. She is very important in Jesus' life as well. Remember the wedding at Cana? (John 2:1-12). Mary was rockin there. She asked Jesus to help, and He did. Jesus gave Mary to us to be our mother. "Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary, wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, 'Women, behold your son.' Then he said to the disciple, 'Behold your mother.' And from that hour the disciple took her into his home." Is that not important?
     
  5. Nicky_uk

    Nicky_uk Member

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    I'm sorry, I havnt read the who thread as there is lots to read and I've come into it quite late. However, I would like to post re: the original question.

    I have heard ministers preach regarding Mary, however, being non-catholic, we dont pray to her, as I believe there is only one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus.

    On a personal level tho, I have often thought about Mary, as a mother. Being a mother myself (even before) I have often given thought to how Mary coped being the mother of Jesus, did she have a special understanding of Christ, what involvement did she have with her son? Did Jesus attend wedding ceremonies of close friends or family e.t.c. If he didnt, how did Mary feel about it. Did she accept he was the Son of God?

    So I guess my thoughts for her are more of a human level rather than supernatural.
     
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  6. chlotilde

    chlotilde Madame Curie

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    Crazily, I'm a catechist for 8-year-olds. This topic was just a recent lesson, so pardon my childish analogy here (but heck, we're supposed to come to him as children).
    Imagine we are a cup and grace is the water that fills it. We spend our lives trying to fill up our cups with grace. We are told Mary's cup was full (Full of Grace). There was no more room for anymore grace in her cup. And why is this not divine? Because God's cup of grace runneth over, and spills onto us.
    The second part of the lesson goes like this.
    Did Jesus honor Mary?
    Do you think Jesus was a good Jewish boy?
    God's covenant with us, is one of love, and he showed us the importance of family love. In fact, familial love was so important he set up a rule about it, to honor your father and mother. Do you think Jesus followed his own rules?


    Prayer intercession for Catholics is not praying to, but rather praying with. It's like when a friend tells me their Uncle just had a heart attack, would I please pray for him. Catholics call this a communion of prayer. As I asked my 3rd-graders, do you think this would make God happy, sad or indifferent to hear all those prayers at once? Catholics include Mary in that communion, just as my friend included me in praying for his Uncle.
     
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  7. logos

    logos Member

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    Just to chime in:

    [font=&quot]Mary, by virtue of who dwelt within Her womb, is indeed the Mother of God. For if God dwells within the womb of any woman, and that woman bears that child, She is by virtue of her child-bearing the mother of that child. Think about surrogate mothers, they were still mothers, and their title attested this as such. So, when we call Mary, the Mother of God, it is properly her title, just as we call your mother, the mother of you[/font]
     
  8. logos

    logos Member

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    I believe that [font=&quot]Mary, by virtue of who dwelt within Her womb, is indeed the Mother of God. For if God dwells within the womb of any woman, and that woman bears that child, She is by virtue of her child-bearing the mother of that child. Think about surrogate mothers, they were still mothers, and their title attested this as such. So, when we call Mary, the Mother of God, it is properly her title, just as we call your mother, the mother of you[/font]

    Just a thought
     
  9. precentor

    precentor Member

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    It troubles me a bit that this was not proclaimed as dogma until 1854. I really don't have any problem with the IC as a pious opinion, but am not sure why it needs to be a point of dogma (of course, I'm leery of Vatican I to begin with...).
     
  10. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    She is a very real comfort and help. Not only do I have the consolation that she is the Theotokos, and through that mother of us all, but she also can hear, help, and console today through God. There have been a number of times this has helped me...especially when I feel like I'm the type of person only a mother could love *big grin*.
     
  11. CaireKecharitomene

    CaireKecharitomene New Member

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    Mary is one of my favorite aspects of my faith. There is plenty important about her:

    1. She is the Mother of God.
    2. She was Immaculately Conceived. Many people think that "immaculate conception" refers to the conception of Jesus - not true. The Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Mary without any stain of original sin.
    3. She is the Ark of the New Covenant - Jesus is the New Covenant and Mary is the ark by which He was borne into the world.
    4. She has been assumed into heaven to be with Him.
    5. She has been crowned by Jesus as Queen of Heaven and Earth.
     
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  12. athanasius

    athanasius Well-Known Member

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  13. writer

    writer Active Member

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    31 Mary...is the Mother of God.
    Luke 1:43. Meter tou Kurios. W/ the caveat that she's not the source of divinity

    She was Immaculately Conceived.
    To contrary: she was an experiential and condemned sinner just like the rest o' us (Rom 3:23)

    Many people think that "immaculate conception" refers to the conception of Jesus - not true.
    Jesus' conception was "immacualte" in the sense that He was conceived (by the Holy Spirit, of Mary's egg) sinless (Jn 3:14; 2 Cor 5:21; Heb 4:15)

    The Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Mary without any stain of original sin.
    This's needless, and counterproductive, fairytale

    She is the Ark of the New Covenant
    To the contrary: the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us, full of grace and reality; and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father. Wrote the apostle John

    Jesus is the New Covenant
    Amen. Jeremiah 31:30-34; Hebrews 8:6-13; Romans 8:2; John 1:1

    and Mary is the ark by which He was borne into the world.
    she no longer bears Jesus in her womb. That precious duty, experience, and grace of hers was only for 9 months. Temporary. Completed. Long ago. Currently, she, like all those born from above, has the eternal and never-ending blessing (FOR WHICH she had that blessed pregnancy): of bearing Christ as His eternal and blessed Body, the church (Gal 4:6, 19; Col 1:27; Eph 3:17; Philip 1:21; 2:16; John 20:22; 1 Cor 15:45; 6:17; Jn 17:21-23)

    She has been assumed into heaven to be with Him.
    To the contrary: she hasn't. She, like all believers, awaits His parousia, His return; their resurrection and their assumption to Him

    She has been crowned by Jesus as Queen of Heaven and Earth.
    To the contrary: she hasn't, never will be individually, and'd pro'ly cry at the thot o' her being labelled so blasphemously. If she knew
     
  14. Smoke

    Smoke Done here.

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    Do you believe that Romans 3.23 applies to all human beings without exception? Does it apply to infants? Does it apply to Jesus?
     
  15. Genna

    Genna Member

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    I agree with writer, if mary was conceived as sinless, why does the bible say:

    And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. (Luke 1:46,47)

    If she was sinless, why would she need a savior?

    Also, I found this passage to be very interesting...

    42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? (Matthew 22:42-45)

    I personally do not believe that Jesus is God. But for those who do, How can Mary be the Mother of God (Jesus) is David called Jesus Lord, not grandson, or great, great....grandson. If Mary is Gods mother, than David would be God's great, great, great ....Grandfather. But David calls Jesus "Lord." hmmm......
     
  16. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Genna, why would Mary having a saviour negate her sinlessness?

    God can save people before they are born. That still makes Christ their saviour.
     
  17. Genna

    Genna Member

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    I am not sure what you mean that God can save people before they are born, are you applying this to Mary? Why would Mary need "saving" even if before she was born if she was sinless? :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: people are "saved" from their "sins"!

    Matthew 1:21 - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
     
  18. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    She was only sinless because of the Grace of God. Grace can be received at any point of someone's existance.
     
  19. Genna

    Genna Member

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    So essentially I can be sinless as of now if God were to bestow His grace upon me?

    And if so, how do you reconcile that idea with this verse:

    1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
     
  20. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    He doesn't bestow sinlessness, He bestows Grace that enables the person to become sinless. In the case of Mary, we believe she responded and accepted God's Grace in a very special way.
     
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