1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Christian: Mary, Mother of God

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Scott1, Aug 19, 2004.

  1. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    Hello there, my fellow Christians!

    How does Mary, the mother of our Lord Jesus, factor into your religious life?

    I recently had a discussion with a Baptist preacher who, after some thought, realized that in 22 years of preaching he never discussed Mary outside the context of Christ's birth...... and it got him to wonder "why?".

    This is not intended to be a discussion about the intersession of Mary, or prayers to saints in general, but a question about her fiat and her role (if any) in the life of non-Catholic Christians.

    Thanks for your contributions!

    Yours in Christ,
    Scott
     
  2. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    4,634
    Ratings:
    +223
    I was raised as a Christian. I never heard much discussion of Mary other than the Mother of Christ. I have come to see here as a feminine aspect of the Divine. When you think of her as the Mother of Christ you can see her as the bearer of love and treasure. I remember singing Ave Maria when I was 10 years old in a school concert. I still remember the Latin words. At 10 I knew I needed Mary in my life.
     
  3. true blood

    true blood Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Ratings:
    +36
    God had to fulfill a prophecy, Genesis 3:15, so God made preparation before the foundation of the world to have a Son. The record of the conception and birth of Jesus Christ is in Matthew 1:18-25. According to the flesh, Jesus was of Mary but the life of the flesh in the blood of Jesus came by way of supernatural conception by God. In other words Jesus was conceived from an ovum of Mary and a sperm from God, therefore the genes with the dominant characteristics came to Jesus not through Mary but by way of the creation of a sperm by God and thus he had sinless blood. The ovum has to be fertilized by the sperm to have soul-life, the mother provides the unborn, developing infant with the nutritive elements for the building of the little body within her. All the nutritive elements and even antibodies pass freely from mother to fetus through the placenta along with the waste products of the child's metabolism which pass back to the mother. Normally there is no actual interchange of blood. All the blood which is in that child is produced within the fetus itself. Basicly, God prepared for this birth from the beginning when he formed and made woman so that no blood should pass directly from her to her offspring and since Adam is the head of all the races of men on earth, Jesus had to be of the line of Adam in order to fulfill the law. In order to produce a sinless man and yet one who was of the line of Adam, God had to provide a way whereby Jesus would have a human body derived from Adam and yet not have soul-life from Adam's sinful blood. Mary nurtured the embryo of Jesus in her womb, thus he was of the line of Adam and David according to the flesh but God contributed the soul-life in the blood of Jesus by way of the sperm. In Jesus' arteries and veins there was sinless soul-life. Sin made man's soul-life corruptible, but the soul-life of Jesus was from God. Thus the conception of Jesus Christ was a miracle by supernatural laws, but the birth proceeded according to natural laws. If Jesus Christ had the same source of soul-life as all other men, he could not have legally redeemed man for he would not have been a perfect sacrifice. Similarly if Jesus Christ (note the title of the thread, Mother of God is in error) had been God, he would not have legally redeemed man for he could not have wilfully chosen to do so. If God did not care to act within legal boundaries he could have rectified the situation immediately after Adam and Eve's fall but had God done this, he would not have been all good and all perfect. There really isn't anything special about Mary other then she was from the line of Adam and David and the prophecy of Genesis 3:15 was fulfilled in her lifetime.
     
  4. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    true blood,

    Nothing special?


    Full of grace, the Lord is with thee: These two phrases of the angel's greeting shed light on one another. Mary is full of grace because the Lord is with her. The grace with which she is filled is the presence of him who is the source of all grace. "Rejoice . . . O Daughter of Jerusalem . . . the Lord your God is in your midst."31 Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is "the dwelling of God . . . with men."32 Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.

    Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. After the angel's greeting, we make Elizabeth's greeting our own. "Filled with the Holy Spirit," Elizabeth is the first in the long succession of generations who have called Mary "blessed."33 "Blessed is she who believed. . . . "34 Mary is "blessed among women" because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord's word. Abraham. because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth.35 Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God's own blessing: Jesus, the "fruit of thy womb."

    31 Zeph 3:14,17a.
    32 Rev 21:3.
    33 Lk 1:41, 48.
    34 Lk 1:45.
    35 Cf. Gen 12:3.


    Just wondering why this account in Scripture can mean nothing to you... please explain.

    Thanks,
    Scott
     
  5. true blood

    true blood Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Ratings:
    +36
    I guess I do think Mary was special but only for 9 months. I just don't understand why the catholic church pray to her as if she can hear them. She has been dead for quite a long time hasn't she? Also, isn't it recorded in the Gospels that her and husband Joseph thought Jesus was beside himself, in other words, crazy?
     
  6. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    true blood,

    Luke 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

    I guess God forgot to include "but only for 9 months" in that verse...... oh well... to each his own.

    I will save this topic for another thread.

    Rrrrrrrrright. I guess he forgot about Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."

    I guess he just forgot about the angel of the Lord and thought Jesus was a nutcase..... yeah, that's sounds about right..................:eek:

    Hmmmmm......... I wonder what "conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." means....? Trinity anyone?..... just kidding......... let's stick to this topic!!!

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  7. true blood

    true blood Active Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Ratings:
    +36
    Matthew 12:46-50: While he yet talked to the people, behold his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

    I've given these verses alot of thought and I asked myself why wouldn't Jesus Christ's mother and brothers be inside the temple listening to Jesus teach the people? Why were they "standing without"? Why would they send someone into the temple to get Jesus rather then enter in themselves and for that matter what did they desire to speak of? However Jesus Christ said the only mother and brethren he had were those who did the will of his Father. You see, I have some doubts on Mary and her other sons and what they thought of Jesus' ministry. I will find the verses where Mary tells her son Jesus he is beside himself, which means crazy.
     
  8. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    true blood,

    Thanks for letting me know your opinion on this subject.........

    Anyone else?
     
  9. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    1,748
    Ratings:
    +167
    When I was a Christian (and I was a rather active one; in Church of Sweden, i.e. Lutheran), I never reflected on Mary or heard her mentioned, other than in passing as being the mother of Jesus and as present at the crucifixion. She was in no other way more special to me (or fellow Christians or preachers or whatever, AFAIK) than any other person in the NT. It is difficult to remember after so many years, but I think that among the women mentioned, the "Mary" of John 12:3 etc. would have been mentioned far more often than Mary mother of Christ.
     
  10. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    Messages:
    211
    Ratings:
    +1
    Greetings SOGFFP,

    I apologize for not continuing our debate upon the theological backing of purgatory a month ago. I had to get away from this site for a bit after spending 2-3 hours a day here for 2 months. Mary is an individual, like the saints, that should be lifted up as role models and they did show special qualities with their strong devotion to the faith, however that is where the line is drawn. While, Mary might have lived a life in the fear of God, and bore his only son into the world; that does not make her any less of a sinner like you or me. We get into trouble, when Mary is seen as a sinless being akin to Christ (as seen in the Marianist Order of the Catholic Church). While, Luther, himself said the "Hail Mary" in respect of Mary; that prayer at that time did not include the words, "pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death." Again, it comes down to what the Bible says. Mary is indeed a special person, but that does not give her any divine powers or abilities. We should, instead, see Mary as a model of faith.
     
  11. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2004
    Messages:
    1,380
    Ratings:
    +66
    i think mary and mary magdalene are feminine counterparts of God.
     
  12. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    LCMS Sprecher,

    Hi there! Good to see you back here posting.

    Well, that's your opinion....... what evidence do you have to support that view?

    Mary is NEVER seen as akin to Christ...... even by the Marianists......
    Mary is to Jesus as the Moon is to the Sun. Period.
    To think otherwise is to cease to be Christian.

    It would help if you quoted something............ it's a big book.:)

    Peace,
    Scott
     
  13. LCMS Sprecher

    LCMS Sprecher Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    Messages:
    211
    Ratings:
    +1
    "Well, that's your opinion....... what evidence do you have to support that view?"

    The Bible makes no reference to Mary being sinless. If she were to be sinless then, we can also achieve sinlessness and Christ's death is meaningless. The Marianist Order seal at my high school reads "in Fide, ad filium per matrem." Now my Latin is not exactly up to superb level, but I know that the translation for that phrase is "in faith, to the son through the mother." Literally speaking, it is akin to saying that we can reach Christ through Mary.
     
  14. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    LCMS,

    According to you.

    You also are under the mistaken assumption that everything in your faith is from the Bible. Sola Scriptura does not pass the test in a Lutheran Church...... you know that "Bible Only" Christians refer to the Luther Church as Catholic-Lite????? The priests, service, ceremony, real prescence, etc...... don't pass the test for them.
    Anyone in your Church get up and speak in tounges during the service.....? Can't be a "Biblical" Church without it.
    Anyone prophesise? Can't be a "Biblical" Church without it.....!
    Get the point?

    That's almost funny........ we can also be called by God to bear the Savior?
    Plan on doing that anytime soon?...... let me know, I would like to say hello to the Angel when he reveals the plan of God to you and calls you "full of grace"..... does this happen to a lot of people in your church? :D
    Seriously now...please, think about it for one second. God made a choice to have his Son born of a virgin...... Mary was an accident? Mary was just of the right lineage and didn't have sex yet?
    I choose to believe that God had more of a plan than that.... the baby Jesus did not spend MOST of his life with a common sinner..... if it makes you feel less perfect somehow, than I am sorry.

    Again with this...... I thought I put this to rest last post.... oh well.

    Without Mary could Christ have been born? If Mary decided to say no to God, would God have forced her? Could Mary have chose to starve the infant Jesus?

    You can't have a son without a mother. That's what it means, in addition to the example of faith by Mary. Her "yes" to the will of God and obedience and love to her Son is an example for us all. If you don't understand this now, you are making a decision not to....... I can't help with that.

    Peace in Christ,
    Scott
    Omnes cum Petro ad Iesum per Marium!
     
  15. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    11,480
    Ratings:
    +1,283
    Religion:
    Christian
    :)

    While I believe that we may find other guides outside the Bible, when a dogma goes against the Bible however no matter what an outside source says it is not true.

    Romans 3:23

    According to the book of Romans all have sinned. There is no exception.

    There are two choices, either Romans is not part of the Bible, or everyone sins.
     
  16. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    Jesus sinned? NO EXCEPTIONS, right?

    Was Jesus not human?

    Scott
     
  17. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    11,480
    Ratings:
    +1,283
    Religion:
    Christian
    Jesus is God the Son, you know the whole trinity thing :p

    I would be suprised if saying Jesus was a mere human wasn't blasphemy according to the RCC
     
  18. Melody

    Melody Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    3,261
    Ratings:
    +558
    I was raised Catholic and attended Catholic school through 8th grade and up and, through that time, I would say she factored heavily. We were taught that we could pray to Mary as an intercessor. Just one of the little niggling problems I had difficulty overcoming...why did I need an intercessor with God...but I'm not going to go there. :D

    Back to your question....until recently I have to admit that she has not played a part in my spiritual life at all. I read the New Testament and Mary has an important part but she sort of drops into the background as time goes on. A not very important character after the birth of Jesus...or so I thought.

    Then I saw "The Passion" and found myself relating to this woman as a mother. While watching the movie, I remember thinking about how much this woman must have suffered while watching while they tortured and crucified her son...and yet she still had faith in God. She embodies the "perfect submission" to God's will. She may not have understand why, but she remained faithful.

    She's become more important in my spiritual life because now when I pray, I pray for that "perfect submission" to God's will and that my faith will be as strong as Mary's.

    Sorry...I feel as if I'm rambling a bit here so I'll finish.
     
  19. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2004
    Messages:
    8,303
    Ratings:
    +950
    Mr. Emu

    Never said Jesus was a "mere human"....... nice "revision/lie", but not the truth.

    Jesus WAS fully human AND fully divine.

    Thanks for the input,
    Scott
     
  20. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2004
    Messages:
    11,480
    Ratings:
    +1,283
    Religion:
    Christian
    I misunderstood you, sorry, was not trying revise or lie.

    Yes, and the fully divine part means He is the standard, the Trinity is the line that none can pass.
     
Loading...