Christian: Mary, Mother of God

[athanasius]

My favorite Marian Prayer is taken from St Francis of Assisi. He was a mystic and †he first in history to receive the wounds of Christ known as the stigmata. He was also one of the best Christians of all time and had a great relationship with Jesus and Mary. Here is his prayer to her:

Greetings to the Blessed Virgin
by St. Francis of Assisi

Hail, Lady and Queen,
holy Mary, Mother of God,
Virgin who became the Church,
chosen by the Father in heaven,
consecrated by his beloved Son
and his Spirit, the Comforter:
in you was and remains,
the whole fullness of grace
and everything that is good.
Hail, his palace,
hail, his tabernacle,
hail, his dwelling,
hail, his robe,
hail, his handmaid,
hail, his mother!
O holy Mother,
sweet and fair to see,
for us beseech the King,
your dearest Son,
our Lord Jesus Christ,
to death for us delivered:
that in his pitying clemency,
and by virtue of his most holy incarnation
and bitter death,
he may pardon our sins.
Holy Virgin Mary,
among all the women of the world,
there is none like you.
You are the daughter and handmaid of the most high King,
Father of heaven.
You are the mother of our most holy Lord Jesus Christ.
You are the bride of the Holy Spirit.
Pray for us, with St. Michael the archangel,
and all the powers of heaven
and all the saints,
to your most holy and beloved Son,
our Lord and Master, Amen.

 

[rocka21]

My favorite Marian Prayer is taken from St Francis of Assisi. He was a mystic and †he first in history to receive the wounds of Christ known as the stigmata. He was also one of the best Christians of all time and had a great relationship with Jesus and Mary. Here is his prayer to her:

Greetings to the Blessed Virgin
by St. Francis of Assisi

Hail, Lady and Queen,
holy Mary, Mother of God,
Virgin who became the Church,
chosen by the Father in heaven,
consecrated by his beloved Son
and his Spirit, the Comforter:
in you was and remains,
the whole fullness of grace
and everything that is good.
Hail, his palace,
hail, his tabernacle,
hail, his dwelling,
hail, his robe,
hail, his handmaid,
hail, his mother!
O holy Mother,
sweet and fair to see,
for us beseech the King,
your dearest Son,
our Lord Jesus Christ,
to death for us delivered:
that in his pitying clemency,
and by virtue of his most holy incarnation
and bitter death,
he may pardon our sins.
Holy Virgin Mary,
among all the women of the world,
there is none like you.
You are the daughter and handmaid of the most high King,
Father of heaven.
You are the mother of our most holy Lord Jesus Christ.
You are the bride of the Holy Spirit.
Pray for us, with St. Michael the archangel,
and all the powers of heaven
and all the saints,
to your most holy and beloved Son,
our Lord and Master, Amen.

would you care to reply to my statement or is this your reply?

 

[athanasius]

Hey rocka, Sorry I have already answered all the marian objections already on this thread. go way back to page 4 and read my dialgues with writer all the way to the current last page. Sorry i just do not feel like rehashing the whole bit when all the info is there already.

 

[athanasius]

Now some more of my favorite Marian devotions and prayers;

The Angelus


V. The angel spoke God's message to Mary
R. And she conceived of the Holy Spirit 
Hail Mary ...
V. "I am the lowly servant of the Lord: 
R. Let it be done to me according to your word." 
Hail Mary ...
V. And the Word became flesh 
R. and lived among us. 
Hail Mary ...
V. Pray for us, holy Mother of God, 
R. That we may become worthy of the promises of Christ.
Let us pray: 
Lord, fill our hearts with your grace: 
once, through the message of an angel 
you revealed to us the incarnation of your Son; 
now, through His suffering and death 
lead us to the glory of His resurrection. 
We ask this through Christ our Lord.
R. Amen
Ok this one isn't explicity a marian prayer but it has Mary in it:

The Divine Praises

Blessed be God.
Blessed be His Holy Name.
Blessed be Jesus Christ, true God and true Man.
Blessed be the Name of Jesus.
Blessed be His Most Sacred Heart.
Blessed be His Most Precious Blood.
Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar.
Blessed be the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete.
Blessed be the great Mother of God, Mary most Holy.
Blessed be her Holy and Immaculate Conception.
Blessed be her Glorious Assumption.
Blessed be the Name of Mary, Virgin and Mother.
Blessed be St. Joseph, her most chaste spouse.
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints.

I love the divine praises, we say it at benediction when we have eucharistic adoration

 

[rocka21]

after read this thread, i guess i come to this conclusion.

catholics belive the scripture AND there pass down traditions from the church fathers.

my only problem with that is if the EARLY church fathers went directly against some of the teaching in the new testament.

wow- what a slippery slope, all these councils, popes, fathers, telling us what the scripture REALLY meant.

how about read it and let the holy spirit interrupt? ( and that too has births numerous denominations).

i guess if it floats your boat to just " TAKE there word for it". more power to you.

matt 6 - vain repetitions- for there many words they think they will be heard
paul says if any teach not to eat meat or do not marry - turn away ( but i guess the church "FATHERS" knew better than this). its a shame all of those sexually pent up prisest that don't think they can marry.

beads, statues, praying to saints, sign of the cross,........i guess its just tradition.

and how can you argue with that? Because when you go to the bible, catholics will go to some council or some date that some pope said this or that. where does it end?

i guess that what religion does...... goes back in time , the older the writing, the older the painting, the older the church, the HOLIER it must be. if thats the case ,

HAIL MARY!

 

[doppelganger]

after read this thread, i guess i come to this conclusion.

catholics belive the scripture AND there pass down traditions from the church fathers.

my only problem with that is if the EARLY church fathers went directly against some of the teaching in the new testament.

But the authority for what constitutes the "New Testament" is the same Church. So why is the Church's argument from authority about what properly constitutes a Christian "Scripture" okay, but ther decision about the veneration of Mary or the Saints not okay? In either case, the die is cast on the authority of the same Church's tradition.

 

[rocka21]

just like the picture on your aviator.

that must be jesus, cause it was painted so long ago. he looks EXACTLY like that picture.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

Hope i'm not entering this discussion too late! i saw that there were @ least 3 pages of posts, and i didn't get to read them all...

For me, Mary is simply an extraordinary woman who bore my Savior, raised him, and watched as he died. I enjoy studying about her, and will probably go to see The Nativity Story. But that's about as far as Mary goes in my religious beliefs, there are many other extraordinary women in the Bible besides Mary.

 

[athanasius]

Rocka you seem a bit angry and uncharitable to your Catholic brethren. Please do not slander all of our Holy priests with angry hurtful arguments about celibacy. When you do this you really solve nothing and insult us Catholics. We are all sinners and some of us( even Ministers) have done bad bad things. This in no way has nothing to do with or discredits the Catholic position on Mary or the Authority of Apostolic tradition or the Church so please act in Charity my separated brother when discussing things.

Now if you care to read reasons why we need to have recourse to this Catholic Church and her traditions may I suggest you read my dialogues here

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16456&page=25

Check out my debate with writer and especially my last post Number 246. This will give you at least the reasons I believe that the Christian needs Scripture and Apostolic tradition and the Catholic Church.

God bless you in Jesus through Mary,
Athanasius

 

[rocka21]

Please do not slander all of our Holy priests with angry hurtful arguments about celibacy. When you do this you really solve nothing and insult us Catholics.

not intended, there are priest who truly have the gift of celibacy , but its not for all. Those that do not have the gift end up doing crazy things.

just lively debate ,,,,,,,,, no harm meant.

God Bless, and may you do great work for OUR lord and savior Jesus the Christ.

 

[sojourner]

With James and John.

*sigh* you didn't get it. "Peter, Paul & Mary?"...anyway...I thought it was funny...sorry...

 

[sojourner]

so there we have it, the mary doctrine was " church- developed".

here are some interesting bible facts...........
the angle of the lord had to tell mary THREE times about the the birth of christ. why would she question if she was divine? Luke 2

Jesus rebuked her at the wedding.

she was a virgin only at christs birth. after , she had other children ( so... umm .. shes not a virgin).

she was filled with the holy ghost speaking in tongues . Acts 2 - ( sounds like she is a pentecostal).

and no i did not see her in my toast this morning!

Mary wasn't divine. Mary was human. Neither the Bible nor the Tradition contradict that. Yes. Marian doctrine was developed by the Church...just as the Bible was developed by the Church.

 

[doppelganger]

*sigh* you didn't get it. "Peter, Paul & Mary?"...anyway...I thought it was funny...sorry...

I got it. It was funny, but I'd given you frubals too recently.

 

[sojourner]

my only problem with that is if the EARLY church fathers went directly against some of the teaching in the new testament.

The earliest Church Fathers didn't have the New Testament to "go against." Early Church Fathers wrote the New Testament.

how about read it and let the holy spirit interrupt? ( and that too has births numerous denominations).

How about let's attempt to interpret the Bible completely outside the Tradition that created it? And then attempt to say that the people who wrote it interpreted it "wrong?"

matt 6 - vain repetitions- for there many words they think they will be heard
paul says if any teach not to eat meat or do not marry - turn away ( but i guess the church "FATHERS" knew better than this). its a shame all of those sexually pent up prisest that don't think they can marry.

Foul! Referee takes away a point and the offending party must sit out 5 minutes in the penalty box. And you lose the free set of steak knives.

beads, statues, praying to saints, sign of the cross,........i guess its just tradition.

God creating humanity in God's image, God taking on human flesh and becoming one of us, Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, Jesus triumphing over the power of death, Jesus gathering his people into his sheep-fold........I guess it's just Tradition.

and how can you argue with that? Because when you go to the bible, catholics will go to some council or some date that some pope said this or that. where does it end?

It doesn't. Revelation is ongoing.

i guess that what religion does...... goes back in time , the older the writing, the older the painting, the older the church, the HOLIER it must be. if thats the case ,

HAIL MARY!

Belief is founded upon three things, like a stool: Scripture, Tradition, and reason. If you cut off even one leg, you're sitting on the floor in a rather awkward position. I hope you're comfortable down there...

 

[writer]

154 The earliest Church Fathers didn't have the New Testament
Yes they did

Early Church Fathers wrote the New Testament.
No they didn't. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude did

How about let's attempt to interpret the Bible completely outside the Tradition that created it?
"Tradition" didn't create the Bible. God's prophets and apostles did

Foul!
Who could disagree pedophilia, fornication, and men forbidding to marry r foul?

God creating humanity in God's image, God taking on human flesh and becoming one of us, Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, Jesus triumphing over the power of death, Jesus gathering his people into his sheep-fold........I guess it's just Tradition.
Jesus led them out of the fold, Judaism, the law. Not into a new one. New religion.
But into His flock. Which is Himself as His Body.
In any case: God's not Tradition. He's a Person, and a Life

Belief is founded upon three things, like a stool: Scripture, Tradition, and reason.
Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfectoer of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has set down on the right hand of the throne of God, Hebrews 12:1
Faith (believing) comes out of hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ, Romans 10:17

 

[sojourner]

154 The earliest Church Fathers didn't have the New Testament
Yes they did

The earliest Fathers were the Twelve. There was no New Testament when Jesus was crucified.

Early Church Fathers wrote the New Testament.
No they didn't. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude did

And these were not Fathers??? (Although it's not at all certain that some of them were the authors of what has been attributed to them)

How about let's attempt to interpret the Bible completely outside the Tradition that created it?
"Tradition" didn't create the Bible. God's prophets and apostles did

The prophets and apostles are part of the Tradition.

Foul!
Who could disagree pedophilia, fornication, and men forbidding to marry r foul?

You're missing the point. The tone of the post was blatantly derisive.

God creating humanity in God's image, God taking on human flesh and becoming one of us, Jesus dying on the cross for our sins, Jesus triumphing over the power of death, Jesus gathering his people into his sheep-fold........I guess it's just Tradition.
Jesus led them out of the fold, Judaism, the law. Not into a new one. New religion.
But into His flock. Which is Himself as His Body.
In any case: God's not Tradition. He's a Person, and a Life

Once again, you're missing the point. The acts of God, as recorded in the Bible, salvation-theology, and the theology of Jesus as King are all part of the Tradition, just as beads, statuary, and making the sign of the cross are part of the Tradition.

Faith (believing) comes out of hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ, Romans 10:17

And the interpretation of what we hear is predicated upon scripture, Tradition and reason. Dismissing the Tradition in which the word is spoken topples the tripod and lands one on the floor. Dismissing reason out of which we make sense of what we hear topples the tripod and lands one on the floor. Dismissing scripture through which the word is transmitted topples the tripod and lands one on the floor.

 

[writer]

The earliest Fathers were the Twelve.
He told the 12 (as 1 of the 12 recorded) "don't be called Rabbi, for One's your Teacher, and you're all brothers. And don't call anyone on earth your father, for One's your Father, He who's in the heavens. Neither be called instructors, because One's your Instructor, the Christ. And the greatest among you shall be your servant" Matthew 23:8-11. So i doubt the 12 called themselves, or each other, "Fathers."
And i'd never heard "church fathers" called the apostles

There was no New Testament when Jesus was crucified.
Mediator of a new covenant, for where there's a testament, the death of him who made the testament must of necessity be established. For a testament's confirmed in the case of the dead, since it never has force when he who made the testament's living, Hebrews 9:15-17. But correct: no New Testament

And these were not Fathers??? (Although it's not at all certain that some of them were the authors of what has been attributed to them)
i'd never heard "church fathers" called the apostles, until u jus did.
Altho i'm certain that all of them are authors of what're variously attributed to them
Matthew - Revelation

The prophets and apostles are part of the Tradition.
Being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, Ephesians 2:20.
To Him who's able to establish you according to my gospel, that is, the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which's been kept in silence in the times of the ages but now's been manifested, and through the prophetic writings, according to the command of the eternal God, has been made known to all the Gentiles for the obedience of faith; to the only wise God through Jesus Christ, to Him be the glory forever and ever, Romans 16:25-27.
Which in other generations wasn't made known to the sons of men, as it's now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in spirit, that in Christ Jesus the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the same Body and fellow partakers of the promise through the gospel, Eph 3:5-6.
Beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, He explained to them clearly in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. And they said to one another, Wasn't our heart burning within us while He was opening to us the Scriptures? He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures, Luke 24:27, 32, 45.
Brothers, concerning the gospel announced by me: it's not according to man. For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:11-12.
The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to Him to show to His slaves...sending it by His angel to His slave John, who testified the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ, all that he saw, Revelation 1:1-2

...blatantly derisive.
The Spirit says expressly that in later times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, of men who are branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron, who forbid marriage and command abstaining from foods, which God's created to be partaken o' w/ thanksgiving by those who believe...
1 Timothy 4:1-3

acts of God, as recorded in the Bible, salvation-theology, and the theology of Jesus as King are all part of the Tradition, just as beads, statuary, and making the sign of the cross are part of the Tradition
Statues, beads, and necessarily making signs of a cross aren't part of God, salvation, Jesus, and the King, as recorded in the Bible. Indeed, graven religious images're condemned in it

interpretation of what we hear is predicated upon scripture, Tradition and reason
He opened their mind to understand the Scriptures.
The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit.
Now the Lord's the Spirit. Whenever the heart turns to the Lord, the veil's taken away. Now we all, with unveiled face...
Who among men knows the things of man, except the spirit of man which's in him?
In the same way, the things of God also no one's known except the Spirit of God. But we've received not the spirit of the world but the Spirit which's from God, that we may know the things which've been graciously given to us by God. Which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things with spiritual words. But a soulish man doesn't receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they're foolishness to him, and he's not able to know because they're taken spiritually. He who's joined to the Lord is one spirit

 

[athanasius]

Today is the very special feast on our Latin Church Calendar. It is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, a Holy day of obligation for all Catholics.

Thank you Jesus for the gift of our spotless Mother(LK 1:28) who was concieved completely full of your Grace.

On this day I remember the Miracle at Lourdes that took place and how Our Lady, the great Queen Mother of God revealed herself as "the Immaculate Conception" to the women she appeared to. God still does miracles at Lourdes shrine today through our Ladys intecession. Amen! Hail Jesus our King and Brother, And Hail Mary Full of Grace the Lord is with thee, blessed are thou amongst Women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of death amen!

The Rosary would be grerat to pray today! It has the Power to destroy heresy, and conquer the devil. St padre Pio a mystic priest int he 1960's called it his "weapon" agains the devil. Each bead that is devoutly prayed is like a bullet intot he heart of the devil and his plans.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning as now and ever shall be world without end amen!

O Blood and water wich Gushed forth from the heart of Jesus as fount of mercy for us, I trust in You!

 

[Scott1]

Today is the very special feast on our Latin Church Calendar. It is the feast of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, a Holy day of obligation for all Catholics.

www.consecration.com

Join the MI!

 

[sojourner]

So i doubt the 12 called themselves, or each other, "Fathers."
And i'd never heard "church fathers" called the apostles

But later, the Church did call them that. What's your point?

i'd never heard "church fathers" called the apostles, until u jus did.

I can't help what you have or have not heard.

Altho i'm certain that all of them are authors of what're variously attributed to them
Matthew - Revelation

You'll have to be alone in your certainty.

The Spirit says expressly that in later times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and teachings of demons by means of the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, of men who are branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron, who forbid marriage and command abstaining from foods, which God's created to be partaken o' w/ thanksgiving by those who believe...

So? The statement was still blatantly derisive. Faith gives one neither the right nor the mandate to be derisive. Faith does the opposite.

Statues, beads, and necessarily making signs of a cross aren't part of God, salvation, Jesus, and the King, as recorded in the Bible.

So? Not every experience and condition of humanity and religious experience is recorded in the Bible. According to your logic, PMS doesn't exist, because it's not recorded in the Bible. The Tradition is rightly larger than that which is part of the Tradition.

Who among men knows the things of man, except the spirit of man which's in him?
In the same way, the things of God also no one's known except the Spirit of God. But we've received not the spirit of the world but the Spirit which's from God, that we may know the things which've been graciously given to us by God. Which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual things with spiritual words

This is a cop-out. It diminishes humanity. Are we not to be part of the equation in Christianity?