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Christian: Mary, Mother of God

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Scott1, Aug 19, 2004.

  1. athanasius

    athanasius Well-Known Member

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    Hello and Peace to you Mr writer. This is Athanasius. I was reflecting today on our past conversations and I felt the Lord speak to my heart. I just wanted to apologize to you for any rude or inflammatory thing I may have said to you in our past dialogues.

    While I do believe that I have demonstrated alot of Biblical and historical truth about the Blessed Mother, I may have done so surrounded by crass remarks to you in addition. And that is not right of me. I repent and have promise the Lord Jesus that from now on I will try my best not to say anything that is rude-minded or personal attack.

    I, and the Catholic Church believe that you Mr writer and all Protestants ARE Christian and possess alot of Good and truth. We just believe that our separated brothers and sisters do not have the fullness of truth as found in the Catholic faith. So, On this friday, as all fridays we Catholics remember the Lord dying for our sins.

    I ask the Lord to take control of Our conversation and let him cover us in his Holy and Powerful Blood. Please forgive me for my wrong doings. As Scripture says “Love conquers multitude of sins”. And it is that kind of Love and Charity I wish to give you my brother in Christ when dialoguing with you. Amen. Now I would like to in Charity answer some of the questions you gave to Mr Victor.

    Mr Writer you have ask Victor this question:
    “Physically bow before statues?”

    My answer:
    Thank you brother for your good questions. It would depend on what you mean by the word “Before”. If you mean the word “before” like it is used in (Ex 20:4-5) which simply means to “worship the statue as a God” like they did with the Golden Calf, then No we do not bow or kneel before them in that sense.

    That is because the Catholic church teaches us not to worship any other Gods. For we have one God as exodus says. But if you mean the word “Before” in the modern english sense that means simply just kneeling “in front” of a statue, then yes we do sometimes kneel in front of statues. This may confuse alot of people who have not been brought up Catholic.

    They usually tend to think that we worship the statue or the person it represents. But nothing could be further from the truth. We do not worship anything or any one but God alone. When we bow down or kneel in front of statues, we simply give veneration to the Person whom that statue represents. And veneration, even bowing to another human being is ok as long as you do not worship that person(1 Kings 2:19-20).

    It would be like kissing a picture of your mother. You do not worship that picture. You just venerate her and remember what she did and what God did for her. I today kissed the feet of a crucifix of Our Lord. I in no way worshipped that Crucifix, But I did remember how Christ loved me and I kissed a image of that to show my appreciation for his love. I hope that helps.

    You also asked victor:

    “Revelation 5:8 mentions prayers (golden bowls) to the praying Lamb on the throne. Not prayers to Mary!”

    My response
    Thank you again for your honesty and intrigue . It is true, this passage does not mention the Blessed Virgin. But what this passage does do is it shows us that there are people(Elders) in heaven around the throne of God that take our prayers(the saints on earth) to God.

    In other words it shows us that the-saints in heaven intercede before God for the saints down here on earth. This is important because logically in order for them to intercede our petitions and prayers to God for us, someone must be asking them to pray for us. Thus, this is where we catholics get the biblical concept of asking departed saints to pray for us. If the Saints in heaven can intercede for us we certainly believe that our Blessed Lady can given that she is the queen of the apostles(Rev 12:1)

    This is a practice that goes all the way back to antiquity in the early church and it was practiced way before the new testament canon was even recognized and declared. It is apparent in the artwork of the early Christian catacombs. No one ever really had a problem with it or believed it to contrary to the written or oral word of God. I hope that helps

    You said
    “What does "celebrated memorials" mean? Assuming it means something religious or superstitious: that's Augustine's and those with hims' problem. Not mine. And certainly zero to do with the apostles' or Christ's words or pattern.”

    My answer:
    In this case, celebrated memorials meant celebrating the sacrifice of the eucharist in worship and memorial, ie...the Mass. We understand this from the last supper. The last supper was considered the fulfillment of the Passover memorial sacrifice (ex 12:8), where the Lamb of God had to be slaughtered, then its blood had to be applied to the door post of the believer, then his flesh had to be eaten in a meal.

    Christ Jesus is the typological fulfillment of the Lamb of God(John 1:29). Christ Jesus then is slaughtered for us on the cross, and sheds his blood(John 19:17-37). He give his apostles the command of celebrating his New sacrificial passover memorial at the last supper(1 Cor 11:23-26) which is a mystical sharing in his sacrifice of his body and blood on Calvary(1 Cor 10:16) “doing this in memory or memorial of him”.

    So thats what was believed by Augustines statements. Also, in the Liturgy in the early church, they would celebrate feast days for martyrs and saints as a way of commemorating “what God has done for that person in history” and give God glory through veneration of his creation. So Augustine is talking about feast days or special Masses for the martyrs and saints.


    You said

    “The "altar of God" in the New Testament is Christ Himself, with His cross. Not a physical altar, or piece of furniture in a physical structure on earth. Contrary to how Christianity, both Protestantism and Catholicism, may loosely speak.Which is also an example of how Christianity, religion in general, tends to Judiaize. Rather than practice the spirit” There's no current physical altar in the church's practice”

    My answer
    Yes amen! You are right. The Cross really was the alter where the “Bloody” sacrifice of Calvary took place. However, Jesus being God, gave his Church a real sharing in that Sacrifice(1 Cor 10:16, 11:27) in holy communion. So it has always been understood ever since the beginning that the Lords supper was the same sacrifice as that of Calvary but, only under a non-bloody form.

    Namely the form of Bread and wine(which by Christ word really became his real substantial Body and Blood). This unbloody Sacrifice of the Last supper was one in the same as his sacrifice on the cross except on thing, In the celebration of the eucharist Jesus doesn't die again, he died once and for all. He just re-presents his once and for all sacrifice on the cross in a unbloody way to the apostles and to all of us under the form of a memorial meal.

    I hope that didn’t confuse you to much. The apostles certainly did haver alters and believed the eucharist to be a sacrifice. Consider these quotes from Paul:

    " Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Shall we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he? (1 Cor 10:18-22)

    Here Paul compares the eucharist(the Cup of the Lord) to demonic food sacrifice to Idols. Paul makes a great point, when he says “are those who east the sacrifices partners in the alter” .....then he says we cannot partake of the table(Or alter implied) of the Lord and table(Alter) of the demons. So paul alludes to having alters for the eucharistic sacrifice of the last supper.

    Again listen to Paul in his letters tot he Hebrews:

    "Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings; for it is well that the heart be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited their adherents. We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat." ‘(Heb 13:9-10)

    Here Paul compares the old testament priesthood and sacrificial foods to ours in the eucharist. Paul very plainly talks about the early church having a Alter from which we eat which no they do not have a right to eat from. The earliest documents we have from the apostolic era ie... the early fathers, taught this unanimously. I hope that didn’t confuse you too much. Thanks for your patience.




    Please see my next post for a answer to your other questions.. Gode bless you very much
    “
     
  2. athanasius

    athanasius Well-Known Member

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    Hello mr writer here is the rest of my answers to you questions. I hope they help.

    You said
    “or should prayer be offered To deceased. Since that resembles the sin of witchcraft or divination”

    My answer;
    Asking a departed brother or sister is not at all the same at divination. Divination encompasses using mediums and soothsayers, and things like Ouija boards and tarot cards and Psychics. When we pray to(Or ask) a departed brother to pray for us, we do not use any of those things.

    Nor do we try to get information from dead saints, we simply ask for the saints intercession and ask him to take our prayers to God. Which we see alluded in (rev 5:8). I hope that helps.

    You said
    “Prayer offered For the dead iz completely useless. Since they're dead. Such nonsense's also absent from God, Christ's, the Spirit's, and Their prophets' and apostles' teaching in the NT and O Praying for the deceased's completely contrary to God's thought, and His words, in the NT and O.”

    My answer:

    Thank you for your thoughts my brother. We catholics would politely disagree with you that this concept is not taught in scripture. We do see this concept taught in Old testament

    “44: For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 
45: But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.”(2 Macc 12:44-45)

    Many of our good hearted non-catholic brothers do not believe 2 Maccebeees to be Scripture. We Catholics do however and this where were we get this idea. Even if you do not believe this is scripture, you must admit that this book was read by the Jews and reflects Judeo theology. As a matter of fact even today the Jews pray for the dead in their “Mourners Kaddish”. We Catholics see Catholic Christianity as a fulfillment of Judaism.


    Mr writer you had said

    “Duz not suggestin that Mary can hear and know oodles of "prayers" offered to her from all over the earth and time indicate some kind of practical omnisicience, or quasi-omniscience? “

    My answer:

    I can see how this may be a bit confusing for a non-catholic. The answer I would give is NO. Mary doesn’t have to be, nor does our church teach that she is omniscient. Only God is omniscient. However, we believe that God gives saints the ability to hear our petitions. How does this work?

    I have no idea. It is one of the most awesome mysteries of our faith. Paul would say “Great is the mystery of our faith”(1 Tim 3:16).

    It would seem logical. Because Satan is not omniscient and yet Peter warns us all to be very careful because Satan is always prowling like a lion waiting to devour all of us(1 Peter 5:8). The scripture seems to also show us the fact that those in heaven are aware of the things that happen down hear on earth.

    For angels will be rejoicing for over even one repentant sinner on earth(LUKE 15:7-10). Angels are not omniscient. Only God is. We believe that they are part of the body of Christ in heaven and as part of that Body we believe that God gives angels and saints the ability to hear our prayers and take them to his throne(Rev 5:8; 8:4-5). for there is only One body of Christ, not two.

    There is not one Body in heaven and one body on earth. There is just one Body. And God desire that we all make intercession and petitions for each other for it is a good and holy thing(1 tim 2:1). We do not how God does this for the angels and saints but we do know that when we die we will be transformed into the image of Christ glorious resurrected Body(Phil 3:20-21; 1 John 3:2) and in his resurrected glorified Body jesus did all ki8nds of incredible stuff like walk through walls.

    So God gives them,the ability to hear and take our petitions to him because he love the body of Christ to make intercession for one another(1 tim 2:1) even in heaven because this relationship of the one body but many persons reflects the Trinity and God's-unique relationship with us. This is a blessed mystery For Paul said

    “eye has not seen nor ear has heard what God has prepared for those who love him”1 Cor 2::9)

    Well I hope that helps you at least understand were we are coming from. You may not agree with us but now at least you know what we believe. I pray right now that the Holy Spirit would anoint both of us to listen and to his voice and to one another. Its good talking to you my brother in Christ.
    In Jesus through Mary,
    Athansasius.
     
  3. athanasius

    athanasius Well-Known Member

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    writer said

    like the rest of us sinners, is credited with righteousness by simple faith into Christ (Romans 4:5). Her faith's accounted as righteousness. Just like Abraham's.
    Paul calls this: justification.


    My answer:

    Thank you for your concern Mr writer, my brother in Christ. It has been a while, I pray that you are doing ok. Have you read my last 2 responses to you on Mary? Post# 81 and #82? I hope they were at least a help to you.

    We may not agree with each other over this issue but at lest you can see how Catholics get their biblical and historical understanding of things. May god bless this response too. The Catholic church certainly teaches that Christ saved Mary. Mary needed a saviour just like everyone else.

    She was justified by his special Grace and made sinless by Christ in virtue of his saving grace not on her own accord, and she had a living faith and total surrender to God(Luke 1:38, 47-55) unlike her old testament type Eve who lost her special graces(the preternatural gifts) by disobedience to God(Gen 3).

    The only difference about Mary is that we Catholics believe that Christ saved her before she even fell into he pit. We are saved by Christ grace(Eph 2:5) once we have fallen into the pit(Of sin). But , Mary because we see her as a biblical, typological, and historical fulfillment of the Ark of the Covenant and the new Eve, was saved by Christ before she could ever fall.

    We believe he did this not only because it would only make logical and scriptural sense as he made her to fulfill the roles of the Ark of the covenant and New Eve but also because he saw it would be most fitting for her to be sinless because he was the Wisdom of God incarnate(1 Cor 1:24) and the wisdom of God according to his own word will not dwell in a body under the debt of sin(Wis 1:4).

    I understand your comments about Romans 11:32. Only The Catholic church and I see this passage to refer to a general statement about all people. In other words if you read the entire chapter 11 what you will find out is that Paul is contrasting the Jews and the Gentiles and basically saying that God consigned all Men “Jews and gentiles in general” to sin so that he may have mercy on them.

    Paul is referring to the Gentiles and Jews in general(see Verse 13) and not every single person. For example most bible christians usually admit that Paul is not referring to infants or children under the age of reason. Most also admit that he is not referring to those people with mental retardation. The all in this passage refers to a general sense of all.

    It would be like saying “All the people in the neighborhood went to the soccer game”. It doesn’t refer to everyone just most everyone. Paul clearly shows this in context of his letters to Romans. He is clearly writing to show his fellow Jews that they are no better than the gentiles(See Rom 11:13-22 for context).

    Mary would of coarse be a exception because she was clearly the fulfillment of the Ark and Eve and was given special fullness of Grace(Luke 1:28) and housed the Wisdom of God incarnate(Jesus) who will not dwell in a body under the debt of sin(Wis 1:4).

    I hope you have a blessed day my brother. May the blood of Jesus cover us in true dialogue and open both of our hearts to his Gospel.

    In Jesus through Mary,
    Athansaius
     
  4. writer

    writer Active Member

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    81 apologize
    Thank u very much. Brother

    promise the Lord Jesus that...
    we're powerless. Apart from the law of the Spirit of life

    all Protestants ARE Christian
    By personal experience, i'd have to disagree. In my experience, even all "Christians" aren't necessarily

    remember the Lord dying for our sins. I ask the Lord to take control of Our conversation and let him cover us in his Holy and Powerful Blood.
    Amen

    forgive me for my wrong doings.
    I've "no choice." And most gladly do nothing but that

    As Scripture says “Love conquers multitude of sins”. And it is that kind of Love and Charity I wish to give you my brother in Christ when dialoguing with you.
    Likewise. Please forgive me if I've wronged u

    kissing a picture of your mother.
    I'd never do so

    people(Elders) in heaven around the throne of God that take our prayers(the saints on earth) to God...saints in heaven
    i understand Rv 5:8's 24 r angelic elders. Angels. Who rn't prayed to. I understand people other than Christ, who is God; God; evidently Enoch, Elijah, Moses; r not in heaven (Rv 6:9; Lk 16:19)

    for them to intercede our petitions and prayers to God for us...
    They pray their "own" prayers (eg Rv 6:10)

    No one ever really had a problem with it or believed it to contrary
    I believe Hegesippius's a written example of someone who realized its problem. But i'll have to confirm or provide a cite 4 u

    last supper was considered the fulfillment of the Passover memorial sacrifice (ex 12:8). Christ Jesus is the typological fulfillment of the Lamb of God(John 1:29).
    I hav to disagree w/ your 1st sentence. And your 2nd's inclusion of "typological." Christ Himself, who has only 1 personal body,'s God's passover lamb

    the Lords supper was the same sacrifice as that of Calvary but, only under a non-bloody form.
    I must respectfully disagree since a) Christ died in the past, neither the present nor future. And b) His Table mentions specifically demonstrates His blood

    table(Or alter implied)
    I respectfully disagree since i find His table is not an altar, but a table

    We have an altar from which those who serve the tent have no right to eat." ‘(Heb 13:9-10)
    This altar's His cross. 13:12-14 "Therefore also Jesus, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate. Let's therefore go forth unto Him, outside the camp...For we don't have here a remaining city..."
    Not a furniture, or location, in a religious building

    82 “Great is the mystery of our faith”(1 Tim 3:16).
    Mary, strictly speaking, and in herself, is not an item of the faith (cf Jn 20:31; 3:16; etc)

    83 In Jesus through Mary,
    Jesus came through, and's born of, a virgin. When she was. All generations and u 'n i call her blessed. But to contact and worship Him directly, right now, isn't "thru Mary"

    Christ saved her before she even fell into he pit.
    This teaching contradicts "original" (inherited) sin. Romans 5:12-14, 19.
    Even more importantly, Christ Jesus' salvation, esp. His organic salvation, is Christ Jesus Himself, as Spirit, and as grace, coming into His chosen and called ones. As John the apostle recorded Him in Jn 7 "He who believes into Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. But this He saId concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit wasn't yet, because Jesus hadn't yet been glorified" (muse Jn 19:34; 1 Cor 15:45; 2 Cor 3:17; Jn 20:22; 1 Cor 6:17). There's no sinlessness apart from the processed: crucified and resurrected; Christ. And even then no total-sinlessness of believers in our unglorified body (Rm 8:10; 1 Jn 1:8)

    Wis 1:4
    Like Maccabees, isn't Scripture nor God, nor God-breathed

    Jews and gentiles in general
    To the contrary: i find Rm 1-3 and 11 on Jew and Gentiles specifically

    Paul is not referring to infants or children under the age of reason. Most also admit that he is not referring to those people with mental retardation. The all in this passage refers to a general sense of all.
    To the contrary: the only sinless one, and only exception, is our Savior

    fullness of Grace(Luke 1:28)
    This means not absence of sin nature in believers (Acts 6:8; cf also Mt 11:11; Mk 3:31-33; Jn 2:3-4; Lk 2:48-49; 1:45, 47, 54).
    Not that it matters: Lk 1:28's Greek, or English, contains not the word "fullness"

    I hope you have a blessed day my brother. May the blood of Jesus cover us in true dialogue and open both of our hearts to his Gospel.
    Amen 'n amen. Absolutely. Thank you very much for your spirit, your faith (in Christ), your kind love, your dialogue, and your charity. Dear brother, and comember, in God and Christ; Athanasius. Yours
     
  5. athanasius

    athanasius Well-Known Member

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    Thank you very much for your thoughtful responses Mr Writer. I may not agree with your conclusions but I do appreciate your prayerful responses. May the Lord Jesus Bless us this dialogue.

    Mr Writer you said:
    “ I understand Rv 5:8's 24 r angelic elders. Angels. Who rn't prayed to. I understand people other than Christ, who is God; God; evidently Enoch, Elijah, Moses; r not in heaven (Rv 6:9; Lk 16:19)”

    My response:
    I understand some of your initial points, and you raise good questions. Amen! I , and the Catholic church would interpret Rev 5:8 a bit differently though. We(catholics believe) that Rev 5:8 is talking about human elders not angels, although the angels of God absolutely do offer our prayers to God in a like manner(Rev 8:3-4).

    One of the exegetical reasons why we believe this is because in context of this passage we see Angels mentioned as separate beings than the elders(Rev 5:11-12). We do believe that Both the angels(Rev 8:4) and the human elders in the heavenly court(Rev 5:8) do take the the saints on earths prayers and present them to God in heaven.

    Logically in order for them to take our request to God most high someone must be asking(Praying) to them to do so. At least that our opinion and the opinion of the early Fathers.

    I think one reason we may disagree with each other over the interpretation of these scriptures is because we Catholics believe that divine revelation also came to us in Holy Sacred tradition that wasn’t written down which we see preserved by the fathers(2 thess 2:15). So this may be a stumbling block for us.

    Mr writer you also said:

    “I must respectfully disagree since a) Christ died in the past, neither the present nor future. And b) His Table mentions specifically demonstrates His blood”

    My response

    Thank you again brother for your charity in responding to my reply. I agree that Christ Jesus our Lord and saviour has died once and for all as the letter to the Hebrews tells us. But we Catholics do not believe he dies again at the Mass.

    We believe that Jesus being God gave us a sharing in this real once and for all sacrifice(1 Cor 10:16, 11:27) in the Lords supper which we would hold to as our new passover sacrificial meal, a fulfillment of the old Passover Sacrificial meal. I hope that helps explain our position better. Sorry if I wasn’t clear at first.

    You had said

    “Jesus came through, and's born of, a virgin. When she was. All generations and u 'n i call her blessed. But to contact and worship Him directly, right now, isn't "thru Mary"

    My response;

    The Catholic Church and I would agree with you. Amen brother. We Catholics are taught to Pray directly to God and we do not “need” to go through Mary at all. I do ask for her prayers because I believe the more prayer to God on my part the better.

    Sorry if I confused you with my signature. My signature was meant to just display that Jesus our salvation came into the world through Mary in the natural order.

    You wrote
    There's no sinlessness apart from the processed: crucified and resurrected; Christ. And even then no total-sinlessness of believers in our unglorified body (Rm 8:10; 1 Jn 1:8)

    My response;

    Good points. I appreciate your honesty and concern with this question. Here is how we Catholics would answer this. We would say that Jesus is God, and because he is God, he is not limited to time and space like we are. Remember Christ Jesus before he became incarnate created his mother.

    This at first may seem crazy. But its true. The fact that God almighty came down to earth and become incarnated would seem radical to many. Yet it happened. For nothing is impossible with God(Luke 1:37). We believe that Christ could have defiantly applied the merits of his cross to his mother even before it happened in time and space on earth. Remember Christ Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever(Heb 13:8).

    And Christ Jesus is God, even before he became incarnate he was still God and not limited by time and space. to God there is no time, everything is the now,present. He is outside of time. We believe he applied his merits of the cross to her before it happened in time and space.

    We do believe he glorfied her especially and made her sinless as we believe no sin had touched her becuase she was the typological fullfillment of the Ark of the covenant and the New Eve as the fathers and as Luke and John show. So I hope that helps.

    You had said
    Wis 1:4
    Like Maccabees, isn't Scripture nor God, nor God-breathed”

    My answer

    We Catholics, along with the Orthodox brothers and the Oriental Churches and the do believe this book of wisdom to be God breathed and scripture in the fullest sense so that may be one of our problems to solving this issue. Especially since it alludes to Marys sinlessness.

    Well I thank you for listening to our response. I know we may never come to agree on issue, Although I never put it past the work of the Holy Spirit. I really do respect your love for the Lord Jesus and your conviction I hope you can appreciate mine too. May Our Lord bless us Both and shed his light of love upon us. Peace be with you my brother Writer.

    In Jesus through Mary,
    Athansaius
     
  6. writer

    writer Active Member

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    Thank you for your interesting, and kind, responses.

    85 May the Lord Jesus Bless us in this dialogue.
    Yes

    angels of God absolutely do offer our prayers to God in a like manner(Rev 8:3-4).
    i'd never advise prayer, nor pray, to an angel. "The smoke of the incense went up with the prayers of the saints out of the hand of the Angel before God." 8:3-4's looks to me singular. Not plural. But more importantly (and this matches a discussion i had in Biblical Debates in "Bible and the Quaran" with a Mr "jewscout"):
    8:3-4's Angel (as well as 7:2's; 10:1's; 18:1's; Genesis 22:11-12's; Exodus 3:2-6's; Judges 6:11-24's; Zechariah 1:11-12's; 2:8-11's; and 3:1-7's) is Christ. Christ Himself.
    Angel, Messenger. "Another Angel" indicates Christ's not a common one. But special One. THE Special One

    in context of this passage we see Angels mentioned as separate beings than the elders(Rev 5:11-12).
    In context of the NT + O i c that human beings (except evidently Enoch, Moses, Elijah, and Jesus) r categorically absent, and must be absent (being disembodied), from heaven currently.
    In context of the word "elders" here, and elsewhere, i c that it's use definitely's not different beings. But rather a category of the same beings:
    "the chief priests and the elders" (Ac 25:15); "the apostles and the elders" (15:6); "Rulers of the people and elders" (4:8); "priests and the scribes and the elders" (Mk 11:27); etc

    for them to take our request to God most high someone must be asking(Praying) to them to do so.
    I'd say the Most High commands (them). Not asks

    divine revelation also came to us in Holy Sacred tradition that wasn’t written down which we see preserved by the fathers
    "Hold to the things which were handed down to you and which you were taught, whether by word or by our letter."
    I mus respectfully respond that Scripture explicitly and specifically hands down Not to pray to, or otherwise seek to communicate with, the deceased including Mary

    Lords supper which we would hold to as our new passover sacrificial meal,
    "Our Passover, Christ" (1 Cor 5:7). Strictly speaking, i mus respond to u dear co-brother and friend Athanasius, as nonoffensively as i can, that Christ Himself's Passover. Not "the Lord's Supper." Although Christ's His Supper, Christ's also much bigger than merely "the Lord's Supper"

    Christ Jesus before he became incarnate created his mother.
    I'm glad we're not tryin to convince one another so much as jus present points. Which i suppose may do their own convincing, if possible. Tho in trivial things like these: is not necessary.
    "God said Let'S make man in Our image...and let THEM have dominion..."
    That's when God, in 'n thru, 'n by 'n with His Son, created His Son's mom. In Adam.
    'N Adam fell. 'N Christ, uniquely in the human race, was eventually born: without human dad (1 Cor 11:12)

    thank you
    Thank you. And you're welcome Athanasius. The Lord be with your spirit
     
  7. athanasius

    athanasius Well-Known Member

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    Good evening Mr Writer. Thank you and God bless you for your thoughtful responses. I have read your questions and tried to saturate myself in prayer to Christ and the Holy Spirit and ask them to guide me in my responses.

    Mr Writer you said:

    “i'd never advise prayer, nor pray, to an angel”

    my response:

    Thank you Mr Writer. I understand what you mean. I used to date a wonderful Baptist girl for 5 years who really helped me understand the non-Catholic position on prayer. So I can appreciate your thoughts on this totally.

    We Catholics, as you may know, have a bit of a broader understanding of the term “Pray” in our theology and we use that term to mean different things depending on whom it is applied to. So I can understand your objections.

    I do not know if this particular problem can ever be resolved by us(Although I never put it past the work of the Holy Spirit) because we simply use the terminology a bit differently.

    You also said:

    8:3-4's Angel (as well as 7:2's; 10:1's; 18:1's; Genesis 22:11-12's; Exodus 3:2-6's; Judges 6:11-24's; Zechariah 1:11-12's; 2:8-11's; and 3:1-7's) is Christ. Christ Himself.


    my response

    Our two churches may view this(Who the angel is) differently because of the deutro- canonical books in our(Catholics) old testament canon which we Catholics and Orthodox Christians believe to be inspired scripture.

    Let me explain. We catholics would reference Rev 8:3-4 not to Christ Jesus but to other Holy angels who take our prayers to Gods throne. We would cross reference this passage in Revelation 8 with (Tobit 12:12,15) which reads

    “I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One ....I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One."


    I understand that non-Catholics do not believe Tobit to be God breathed scripture, but we Catholics and Orthodox do believe it is God breathed scripture. To us we see angels like St Raphael the Archangel as being one of many angels who take our prayers and present them to God on his throne.

    This to us corresponds perfectly with Rev 8:4 and that is why we do not believe rev 8 to be talking about Christ as the angel. i hope that helps. Again since we both have different understandings about what constitutes the Word of God this may be a difficult problem to solve. At least you now may understand why Catholics believe what they do even if you may not agree with our interpretations.

    You also said:

    I mus respectfully respond that Scripture explicitly and specifically hands down Not to pray to, or otherwise seek to communicate with, the deceased including Mary.

    My response

    Thank you for your honest reply. I would lovingly disagree. But I think our problem is going to be more on the terminology side instead of the doctrinal side. We Catholics do believe, and are taught NOT to conjure the dead or take part in any form of necromancy as seen in for example in (1 Sam 1:28) and other passages.

    However, we do not see praying to the saints as necromancy. So we do not see this as a violation of it. This is because our definition of prayer is a bit different than yours.

    You also said

    “Strictly speaking, i mus respond to u dear co-brother and friend Athanasius, as nonoffensively as i can, that Christ Himself's Passover. Not "the Lord's Supper." Although Christ's His Supper, Christ's also much bigger than merely "the Lord's Supper"

    My response

    Thank you and Bless you my brother for being gentle in your approach to me. I really appreciate your points, they make me think. Amen! We Catholics would politely disagree with you.

    We do believe that Jesus is our Passover Lamb(Jn 1:29; 1 Cor 5:7-8) and our new passover who breaks the bonds of sin and death by his death on a tree! Amen! But we Catholics also see a connection and believe that the Last supper was a typological fulfillment of the sacrificial passover meal(Ex 12:8).

    We believe that the Lord supper is the new sacrificial passover meal that replaced the old one. The fact that the last supper was a passover sacrificial meal I believe comes out clearly in the gospels.

    And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer...... And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. (Luke 22:15,19-20).


    Well I hope I have at least presented the Catholic side with some clarity. I pray that Jesus guides me to answer the way he would want me to answer. I sure do enjoy talking to you and learning about your beliefs. I have alot of non-catholic friends and even some Baptist and Lutheran Minister friends who love to discuss scripture, and theology.

    Its always good conversation when I talk to them. Likewise its always good to talk to and listen to a brother like yourself who is honest and devout with his relationship with our Lord. I used to go to a non-denominational bible study and I learned alot from our separated brethren as well as they learned alot from me about the Catholic faith.

    Well I hope you have a blessed night. May the Lord and his Holy Angels watch over you and guide you. Amen!

    In Jesus through Mary,
    Athanasius
     
  8. shema

    shema Active Member

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    Mary, to me, is the perfect example of how a mother should be in the natural realm.
     
  9. athanasius

    athanasius Well-Known Member

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    Amen Shema!
     
  10. writer

    writer Active Member

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    87 tried to saturate myself in prayer to Christ and the Holy Spirit and ask them to guide me in my responses.
    Wonderful! I appreciate your experience very much: contacting the God of this universe. Which u related in your post 81. THAT, i feel, is the main point.
    Maybe we should both saturate ourselves by prayer, rather than discuss

    "Pray"...we simply use the terminology a bit differently.
    That may b

    cross reference... Tobit 12:12,15......is why we do not believe rev 8 to be talking about Christ as the angel.
    Thanks very much. For purposes of Bible study: any comment or reference to Gen 22:11-12; Ex 3:2-6; Judg 6:11-24; Zech 1:11-12; 2:8-11; 3:1-7; Malachi 3:1; Rv 7:2; 10:1; 18:1? Thanks

    angels who take our prayers and present them to God on his throne.
    Rv 5:8 mentions this. Who rn't, becuz of that, 2 b prayed 2

    form of necromancy as seen in for example in (1 Sam 1:28)
    Looks like u don't mean 1 S 1:28

    "I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer...... And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. (Luke 22:15,19-20)."
    To the contrary: Christ didn't eat Himself

    I pray that Jesus guides me to answer the way he would want me to answer.
    Amen, brother. Pleze pray likewise for me too

    81 bow down or kneel in front of statues, we simply give veneration to the Person whom that statue represents.
    Thas what any or all statue-bowers say

    veneration, even bowing to another human being is ok as long as you do not worship that person(1 Kings 2:19-20).
    1 K 2:19-20, as well as i believe all these particular related references u gave earlier, refers to a political relationship and situation.
    Additionally, "veneration" in English Is synonymous with worship. They're synonyms

    82 Divination encompasses...
    Div, 'n attempted divination (whether deliberate or not) Requires none o' those things

    Nor do we try to get information from dead saints
    I'm very glad 4 that information. And i urge u not to. But in regard to consistency, it looks like it may contradict your other statement in 82:
    God desire that we all make intercession and petitions for each other for it is a good and holy thing. he love the body of Christ to make intercession for one another
    If by "all" u mean to include deceased in the Lord

    2 Maccebeees...you must admit that this book was read by the Jews and reflects Judeo theology. As a matter of fact even today the Jews pray for the dead in their “Mourners Kaddish”
    I deny that those reflect the OT

    Satan is always prowling like a lion waiting to devour all of us(1 Peter 5:8). The scripture seems to also show us the fact that those in heaven are aware of the things that happen down hear on earth.
    Creation-wise, he was much more powerful than Mary. Nor is he limited to heaven. Whereas Mary, and the rest of the deceased humans r limited to under the earth (cf Rv 6:9; Lk 16; Ac 2:34)

    when we die we will be transformed into the image of Christ glorious resurrected Body(Phil 3:20-21; 1 John 3:2)
    To the contrary: they refer to resurrection. "heavens from which also we eagerly await the Lord Jesus Christ/ If He's manifested, we'll be like Him...see Him." Not death.

    Thanks Athanasius
     
  11. writer

    writer Active Member

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    Athanasius 'n i love You
     
  12. athanasius

    athanasius Well-Known Member

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    Dear in Christ Mr Writer,
    Thank you for your replies. You gave me something to think about. I hope I did the same with you. I ask the Lord Jesus to help me respond to your questions in the best way how. He will make up for what I lack. May God richly bless us in this dialogue.

    You said:

    Thanks very much. For purposes of Bible study: any comment or reference to Gen 22:11-12; Ex 3:2-6; Judg 6:11-24; Zech 1:11-12; 2:8-11; 3:1-7; Malachi 3:1; Rv 7:2; 10:1; 18:1? Thanks

    My response;

    Than you very much for your question. I must admit I honestly do not know exactly how or where to begin with this question. I understand that you may view the angels in Rev 8:4 as Christ alone, But we Catholics do not. We Catholics view them as Angels. I appreciate your thoughts on this though. I can agree that sometimes in scripture Angels can refer to God as the case with a few of the passages you mention.

    But Many times in scripture Angels also just refer to Angels separate from God. As in the Case of Gabriel(Luke 1) or St Michael the Arch Angel(Jude). Like wise we Catholics see a direct connection of Rev 8:4 to (Tobit 12:12,15) which mentions the archangel Raphael, a separate Angelic being(Not God) who is one of the seven angels who present the prayers of Gods people to God on his throne. To us Catholics and Orthodox and Oriental Christians, Tobit is God breathed scripture. So that may be one reason why we do not agree with you on this. We also see Scripture refer to Angels as Gods holy ones separate from who God himself is(Zech 14:5). However I would also say that I am not a expert on Revelation or angels by any means. I have not taken specific classes on them yet.

    So I am honestly not sure what else I can say on the angels bit. I know that Catholic scripture Scholars, theologians and the fathers of the Church may interpret Rev 5 and 8 different from your interpretation. I have not studied in depth this question yet. I have also never heard any non-Catholic protestant denomination ever teach what your teaching about Jesus being the angels of revelation 8?


    If you would like I would be glad to write to Catholic answers and ask them, and their scholars and apologist could maybe explain it better or more in depth than I . I hope that helps. Thanks for your patience.

    You said:

    v 5:8 mentions this. Who rn't, becuz of that, 2 b prayed 2

    My response

    Ahh Yes, sorry if I was unclear. We Catholics see this as a implicit hint to praying to saints. We see Saints and Angels(rev 5:8, Rev 8:4) offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. Logically in order for someone to offer a intercession for you, you must ask them first.

    Hence we believe thess verses implicitly teach the intercession of the departed saints and angels in heaven. so we believe its implicit in sacred Holy scripture. We also believe that this is explicit in the lived tradition of the church(2 Thess 2:15) as we see in the early Catacombs, funerary inscriptions, and liturgy of the early christians.

    You said:

    Looks like u don't mean 1 S 1:28

    My response:

    Yes indeed I do and the Catholic church condemns necromancy as found in 1 Sam 1:28. I didn’t make this up we really do condemn necromancy and this is quoted in Catholic books such as the Catechism of the Catholic church and many books by various Catholic exorcist.

    As a matter of fact Catholic exorcist in their books talk about how necromancy is a evil practice and how many possession cases happened because of it. One case of it happened here in St louis in the 1940’s when a Kid tried to contact his dead aunt via a ouija board. I hope that clarifies things a bit.

    You said:

    To the contrary: Christ didn't eat Himself

    My answer:

    We Catholics believe he did. We take his word seriously and literally when he said “this is my Body”. This is not only something that the we believe the scripture plainly teaches but also the unanimous oral tradition and teaching of the apostolic fathers all taught.

    Therefore we(Catholics) believe this is true as it it is found in both the written word of God(Scripture) and the Oral word of God in(tradition). this just may be one of those things we both may have to disagree on respectfully.


    You said:

    Thas what any or all statue-bowers say

    my response:

    Thank you brother for your understanding. It may be, but it is true for us Catholics as our Catechism and Church teach.

    You said:

    1 K 2:19-20, as well as i believe all these particular related references u gave earlier, refers to a political relationship and situation.
    Additionally, "veneration" in English Is synonymous with worship. They're synonyms.


    My response

    Yes it may be true that some of these verses(but not all) I mentioned may have a political base. For example, Bathsheba was the Queen Mother to the Davidic throne as we see in 1 Kings 2:19-20. That is why Solomon gave her veneration and bowed to her. What this passage shows is that it is ok to give other human beings a type of veneration(glory and Honor) and even bow to them as long as we do not worship them.

    This is what Catholic do with Mary. In fact if Mary was hear I would very reverently kneel or bow to her because we Catholics see her as a typological fulfillment of the Davidic Queen Mother. Jesus fulfills the role of the new davidic King(Matt 1:1) and so Jesus being our King from Davids line, naturally we assume Mary would be his queen Mother. She is to us Catholics, the Queen of the Church and the Apostles and the new Davidic Queen mother as we Catholics believe and understand from typology and from (Rev 12:1) and from the fathers of the church in the lived tradition or oral word of God. Bathsheba and her office was a type of Mary to us.

    You said:

    t looks like it may contradict your other statement in 82:
    God desire that we all make intercession and petitions for each other for it is a good and holy thing. he love the body of Christ to make intercession for one another
    If by "all" u mean to include deceased in the Lord

    My answer:

    We Catholics do believe that there is only one Body of Christ, not two. There is not one body in heaven and one body on earth, but just one Body. We also see Paul instruct all members of that body to offer prayers and intercessions for one another(1 tim 2:1).

    We believe this is fulfilled by the one body of christ both on earth and in heaven as we interpret Rev 5:8 and 8:4 to show this in the new testament , and we Catholics also see this in our Old testament in (2 Macc 15:12-16) and (Tobit 12: 12,15). I hope that at least explains why we do what we do. I understand you may not agree but at least you now may understand why we believe it.

    You said

    I deny that those reflect the OT

    My answer

    I understand that you do not and I respect you. But try to understand that we Catholics, and Orthodox christians do believe them to be part of the God breathed old testament. So this may be one of our problems in understanding these things.

    You said:

    Creation-wise, he was much more powerful than Mary. Nor is he limited to heaven. Whereas Mary, and the rest of the deceased humans r limited to under the earth (cf Rv 6:9; Lk 16; Ac 2:34)

    My answer:

    Thank you brother for your concern. we catholics would disagree politley with you. We believe that Mary has been assumed to heaven and God gives her and the saints the ability to hear and take the prayers of others to him on his throne.

    This is something we find in the oral word of God in tradition explicitly and implicitly in scripture. Also this is something that we believe we have miraculous evidence on. The approved Marian apparitions of Lourdes and fatima seemed to prove this. So for us this has evidence in Scripture, Tradition, and Miracles. Amen. I hope that helps brother.


    Well I have prayed to God and I know that we may never agree on these issues but I hope you can at least appreciate the evidence we Catholics may give for believing such things. It is always difficult to talk about some of these issues because our two churches have a different understanding on what constitutes the Word of God. We believe in scripture and apostolic tradition and we also believe the deutro-canonicals are scripture.

    You guys do not. But I do say I think it is a blessing that we can talk like this. I am very glad to listen to you and even pray with you. Its always a blessing to dialogue with a fellow brother in Christ Jesus. Amen! Sorry If I could not answer some of your questions, I do not know all the answers as I am still in school ands have alot to learn. Come Holy Spirit come. God bless you always mr Writer.

    Speaking Christ Truth in love
    In Jesus through Mary,
    Athansaius
     
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  13. writer

    writer Active Member

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    92 angels in Rev 8:4
    The word's singular in 8:4

    Tobit...may be one reason why we do not agree with you on this. I can agree that sometimes in scripture Angels can refer to God as the case with a few of the passages you mention. I am not a expert on Revelation. I have not studied in depth this question yet.
    A next question mite become: why Tobit over the "sometimes in scripture" u mention, in the case of 8:4? Pleze remember, pleze feel free 2 teach me here

    If you would like I would be glad to write to Catholic answers and ask them, and their scholars and apologist could maybe explain it better or more in depth than I
    i doubt they could better. Pleze feel free. Thanks

    Logically in order for someone to offer a intercession for you, you must ask them first.
    a) i'm unable to c angels offering intercession for you in 5:8.
    b) Since God's Originator, i find it illogical 2 say u must ask others first. Not that u shouldn't ask friends who can hear u

    departed saints in heaven.
    Out of curiosity (not debate): do u mean your 24 elders, 'n others, r resurrected?

    Yes indeed...necromancy as found in 1 Sam 1:28. I didn’t make this up. I hope that clarifies things a bit.
    I meant that "Therefore I, for my part, have lent him to Jehovah; all the days that he lives, he is lent to Jehovah. And he worshipped Jehovah there" is nothin about necromancy

    We Catholics believe he [ate Himself]
    He had 2 bodies?
    And: what do u find to b the point of your teaching, or such a teaching?
    Thanks

    we believe the scripture plainly teaches...
    Thas interesting. Cuz i find the metaphor's plain; and the Scripture plainly teaches the opposite blessing. "This product of the vine/Unleavened bread of sincerity and truth/Partake, eat, of the one bread/It's the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing"

    take his word literally when he said
    "I'm the light"? Do u take as....physical light?
    "The Body of Christ" in Rom, 1 Cor, Eph, Col means we're His individual human body?
    "That you may be a new lump" meaning Christians who partake transmogrify into a dead, speechless, lump of bread too?
    Pleze don't answer any of these if u'd rather not to.
    And pleze don't touch this one either if you like not to, dear brother. I really mean no offense. Brother Athanasius. Jus perhaps u can teach me (more):
    What possible benefit's spose to accrue frum cannibalism, or this sort of it?
    Merci beaucoup

    unanimous oral tradition and teaching of the apostolic fathers all taught.
    What "oral" tradition, if any, mite u b referrin to thas not written down? Again: this is a point of curiosity 4 me. Here. Not debate.
    2ndly: such silliness's by no means unanimous if you're writin of post-apostolic early believers up to, 'n includin, Augustine in particular.

    Thanks
     
  14. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    *MOD POST*
    PLEASE REMEMBER THAT THIS THREAD IS ON MARY.
     
  15. athanasius

    athanasius Well-Known Member

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    Dear in Christ Mr writer.

    Thank you for your questions. I am afraid that I must decline in answering many of them becuase as our Moderator has rightly just showed, they are not directly about Mary. But I would love to, on another forum, discuss the Eucharist. God bless you always Mr writer it is always good hearing from you.

    Speaking the truth of Christ Church in love,
    In Jesus through Mary,
    Athanasius
     
  16. writer

    writer Active Member

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    94 PLEASE REMEMBER THAT THIS THREAD IS ON MARY.
    Is that why u wrote: "Sorry, I believe in the Trinity which consists of three persons, ONE Nature. One example of truck load of others:
    See, in short you have it that the Father is one, the Son another, and the Holy Spirit another; in Person, each is other, but in nature they are not other.(The Trinity 4:1–2 [c. A.D. 515]).

    "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10).
    "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8).
    I'd list some early christian writers but you apparently have no interest to hear them out."

    in your post 77?
     
  17. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Point taken, so let's get back on topic.
     
  18. writer

    writer Active Member

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    he 'n i were on whatever topic we apparently wanted to b.
    If u got something particular about Mary u wanna share, pleze, what is it?
    Thank u
     
  19. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    No, do you?
     
  20. writer

    writer Active Member

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    why do u want us to talk about only her?
    Thanks
     
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