'cause in Texas potted plant purloiners are legitimate targets

[Kathryn]

Irresponsible use of firearms is responsible for .6 percent of all accidental deaths in the US. Car accidents are responsible for 39 percent of all accidental deaths.




There are roughly 270,000,000 guns in the United States. There are roughly 255,000,000 autos in the US.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/08/28/us-world-firearms-idUSL2834893820070828

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_vehicles_in_the_United_States

Per ratio, cars are much more dangerous than guns.

 

[McBell]

Irresponsible use of firearms is responsible for .6 percent of all accidental deaths in the US. Car accidents are responsible for 39 percent of all accidental deaths.




There are roughly 270,000,000 guns in the United States. There are roughly 255,000,000 autos in the US.

U.S. most armed country with 90 guns per 100 people | Reuters

Passenger vehicles in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Per ratio, cars are much more dangerous than guns.

I wonder how the idea that guns are only for killing people fit into this.....

 

[Drolefille]

Irresponsible use of firearms is responsible for .6 percent of all accidental deaths in the US. Car accidents are responsible for 39 percent of all accidental deaths.




There are roughly 270,000,000 guns in the United States. There are roughly 255,000,000 autos in the US.

U.S. most armed country with 90 guns per 100 people | Reuters

Passenger vehicles in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Per ratio, cars are much more dangerous than guns.

I wasn't only speaking of accidental deaths with guns. Intentional use of guns causes death too.

 

[Revoltingest]

I wasn't only speaking of accidental deaths with guns. Intentional use of guns causes death too.

Of course, many of those intentional deaths are proper.
But without quantifying such things, we don't make our case.
Some reading about guns used in self defense......
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense?

 

[Drolefille]

Of course, many of those intentional deaths are proper.
But without quantifying such things, we don't make our case.
Some reading about guns used in self defense......
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense?

Of course some are 'proper' for a definition of the word, as not all would agree.

But I'm fairly certain my point remains that guns and cars aren't comparable as tools (and cars being used far more often than guns means that numbers require a lot more crunching than the face value)

 

[Revoltingest]

Of course some are 'proper' for a definition of the word, as not all would agree.

But I'm fairly certain my point remains that guns and cars aren't comparable as tools (and cars being used far more often than guns means that numbers require a lot more crunching than the face value)

It's OK to agree to disagree.
The link I gave was just to offer another perspective....not proof, truth or anything so contentious.

 

[Drolefille]

It's OK to agree to disagree.
The link I gave was just to offer another perspective....not proof, truth or anything so contentious.

Oh aye, I do appreciate the info

 

[Kathryn]

I wasn't only speaking of accidental deaths with guns. Intentional use of guns causes death too.

You know - these stats aren't all that hard to find.

The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6]

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There were 41,059 "deaths by vehicle" in 2007, for comparison.

So - more guns than vehicles - and more deaths by vehicles. There you have it.

 

[Drolefille]

You know - these stats aren't all that hard to find.

The majority of gun-related deaths in the United States are suicides,[5] with 17,352 (55.6%) of the total 31,224 firearm-related deaths in 2007 due to suicide, while 12,632 (40.5%) were homicide deaths.[6]

Gun violence in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There were 41,059 "deaths by vehicle" in 2007, for comparison.

So - more guns than vehicles - and more deaths by vehicles. There you have it.

How many times were each of those tools used? It's really not that simple. I don't have numbers to back up my statement because I don't think there's any way to GET those numbers, but I think it's clear that the average car is used multiple times per day and the average gun is used once a week, a month, less? Depends on professional vs. home I'm sure, and how often one goes to a firing range.

I'm not pretending there aren't plenty of vehicular deaths, and I'm not trying to move goalposts, just make it clear that it's not as simple as you're trying to make it out.

 

[Kathryn]

How many times were each of those tools used? It's really not that simple. I don't have numbers to back up my statement because I don't think there's any way to GET those numbers, but I think it's clear that the average car is used multiple times per day and the average gun is used once a week, a month, less? Depends on professional vs. home I'm sure, and how often one goes to a firing range.

I'm not pretending there aren't plenty of vehicular deaths, and I'm not trying to move goalposts, just make it clear that it's not as simple as you're trying to make it out.

I never said it was simple. I gave you the facts you asked for. When I gave them to you, you attached more criteria. I gave you THOSE facts, and now you ARE moving the goalposts again.

You're right - the "facts" you're asking for now would be impossible to determine with any accuracy.

But this fact is not hard to determine - more people are killed in vehicle accidents each year than by guns in the US, though there are more guns than vehicles.

 

[Drolefille]

I never said it was simple. I gave you the facts you asked for. When I gave them to you, you attached more criteria. I gave you THOSE facts, and now you ARE moving the goalposts again.

You're right - the "facts" you're asking for now would be impossible to determine with any accuracy.

But this fact is not hard to determine - more people are killed in vehicle accidents each year than by guns in the US, though there are more guns than vehicles.

No really, I said per item or per use. So per item, I'm wrong, per use I suspect I'm not and there's no data. Per use is more what I was trying to get at, and I stated it in the initial post where I made the claim.

So until you shoot your gun as often as you hop into your car, I'm unimpressed with your claim that I attached extra criteria. I've been looking for the more complex data from the beginning. And since you're not buying a car to protect your family, I'm still comfortable with my claim that as tools, cars and guns are not comparable in purpose.

 

[Revoltingest]

No really, I said per item or per use. So per item, I'm wrong, per use I suspect I'm not and there's no data. Per use is more what I was trying to get at, and I stated it in the initial post where I made the claim.

So until you shoot your gun as often as you hop into your car, I'm unimpressed with your claim that I attached extra criteria. I've been looking for the more complex data from the beginning. And since you're not buying a car to protect your family, I'm still comfortable with my claim that as tools, cars and guns are not comparable in purpose.

We could measure gun usage by the time one actually carries it, ready for presentment & possible firing.
With this approach, gun usage would far exceed that for cars. I'll typically carry mine 50 hours per week or so.
I presume similar for other CCW license holders.

 

[Kathryn]

No really, I said per item or per use. So per item, I'm wrong, per use I suspect I'm not and there's no data. Per use is more what I was trying to get at, and I stated it in the initial post where I made the claim.

So until you shoot your gun as often as you hop into your car, I'm unimpressed with your claim that I attached extra criteria. I've been looking for the more complex data from the beginning. And since you're not buying a car to protect your family, I'm still comfortable with my claim that as tools, cars and guns are not comparable in purpose.

Here's what you said:

The successful use of a gun is far more likely to result in death than the successful use of a car.

It'd be interesting to look at numbers, but my guess is that per item (gun or car) or per use, the risk from a gun is quite a bit higher.

 

[HiddenDjinn]

Looks like drole is engaging in a game called "move the goal posts." Naughty, naughty.

 

[Drolefille]

Looks like drole is engaging in a game called "move the goal posts." Naughty, naughty.

No really I'm not, in fact, I was the one who mentioned that in this thread, bringing it up now as if it's new isn't even close to accurate.

We could measure gun usage by the time one actually carries it, ready for presentment & possible firing.
With this approach, gun usage would far exceed that for cars. I'll typically carry mine 50 hours per week or so.
I presume similar for other CCW license holders.

That is interesting as a way to count it, although you couldn't presume that all guns are being carried that frequently. (How many guns does each person have, how many are carried, etc.) But I'm not sure if that's more like having your car in a garage, really.

As I said I really don't think they're comparable. I realize I'm as bad as everyone else about still trying to compare, but they're too different in purpose and in use.

Here's what you said:

You bolded 'the successful use' part, and ignored where I said I was wrong on the per item basis to try and...what? Win something? Have a cookie if you want one, but I'm more concerned with a per use number and not because I was wrong on the other grounds.

But if you're going to ignore the words you bold, I can't help you with your reading comprehension.

 

[Revoltingest]

That is interesting as a way to count it, although you couldn't presume that all guns are being carried that frequently.

It just suggests an order of magnitude of that kind of use.

(How many guns does each person have, how many are carried, etc.) But I'm not sure if that's more like having your car in a garage, really.

More like sitting in it with the tranny in park.

As I said I really don't think they're comparable. I realize I'm as bad as everyone else about still trying to compare, but they're too different in purpose and in use.[/quote]
With analogies, what matters is the similarities with respect to the issue at hand.
- Both are useful.
- Both are dangerous.
- Both have civil liberty aspects - self-defense & open revolt, or right to travel.

Of course, all analogies have differences. Without them, they wouldn't be analogous....they'd be identical.

 

[Drolefille]

It just suggests an order of magnitude of that kind of use.

More like sitting in it with the tranny in park.

Hmm ok maybe, are you in neutral if the safety's off?

With analogies, what matters is the similarities with respect to the issue at hand.
- Both are useful.
- Both are dangerous.
- Both have civil liberty aspects - self-defense & open revolt, or right to travel.

I disagree about 'the right to travel' as that's typically not considered a right when it comes to cars. And stairs are both useful and dangerous - and so are ladders, chainsaws, and so on.

I don't think that cars and guns are similar enough to make a strong analogy about them. It's playing statistical magic to get the answers you want. Kind of like how you're safer on a plane than on the road which is nice until you realize the number of times you drive vs. fly, the fact that a pilot is a professional, not an amateur, traffic control, number of flights in the air, etc. all mean that that statistic doesn't MEAN a whole lot. It sounds good though, doesn't it? And they're both methods of transportation.

Of course, all analogies have differences. Without them, they wouldn't be analogous....they'd be identical.

But I wasn't really talking analogies, I was talking comparisons/contrasts -which isn't the same thing at all. What we're doing with the car in the garage/park vs. a gun in a holster is more about analogies.

*shrug* c'est la vie

 

[Revoltingest]

Hmm ok maybe, are you in neutral if the safety's off?

I don't even trust safeties. I carry chamber-empty.

I disagree about 'the right to travel' as that's typically not considered a right when it comes to cars. And stairs are both useful and dangerous - and so are ladders, chainsaws, and so on.

I consider traveling by car to be a right, albeit with some reasonable restrictions (eg, licensing, safety).
Travel is a right, & in this country, you ain't go'n nowhere without using a road, so it functions as a pretty basic right.

I don't think that cars and guns are similar enough to make a strong analogy about them. It's playing statistical magic to get the answers you want. Kind of like how you're safer on a plane than on the road which is nice until you realize the number of times you drive vs. fly, the fact that a pilot is a professional, not an amateur, traffic control, number of flights in the air, etc. all mean that that statistic doesn't MEAN a whole lot. It sounds good though, doesn't it? And they're both methods of transportation.

Statistics is useful, but only if the figures are reliable, understood, & used properly.
Then, one cannot game to get any desired result.

 

[Drolefille]

I don't even trust safeties. I carry chamber-empty.

*nod*

I consider traveling by car to be a right, albeit with some reasonable restrictions (eg, licensing, safety).
Travel is a right, & in this country, you ain't go'n nowhere without using a road, so it functions as a pretty basic right.

The law seems like it has disagreed pretty strongly though that driving is a right.

[

Statistics is useful, but only if the figures are reliable, understood, & used properly.
Then, one cannot game to get any desired result.

It's the used properly part that usually catches people. Doesn't make the headlines sound as good otherwise.

 

[Revoltingest]

The law seems like it has disagreed pretty strongly though that driving is a right.

The law & I argue a lot. You should see the carnage when we fight about the military draft!

It's the used properly part that usually catches people. Doesn't make the headlines sound as good otherwise.

True dat.