.lava
Veteran Member
dear Zenzero, lines i shared do not need intrepretation. last time i've heard there was and probably still is just one person who could interpret all lines of Rumi.
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Can outsiders learn from Sufism?
- Thread starter sandandfoam
- Start date
dear Zenzero, lines i shared do not need intrepretation. last time i've heard there was and probably still is just one person who could interpret all lines of Rumi.
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.lava
Veteran Member
73:8 But keep in remembrance the name of thy Lord and devote thyself to Him whole-heartedly.
by saying the name of Allah, we keep remembrance the name of our creator. Allah is not just a word, it is name of our Rab. this zhikir does not have to be done out load. matter of fact, it is best if you don't move your tongue.
ps: Abu Khalid, if you can read Qur'an in its original text please read this one.
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AbuKhalid
Active Member
Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for.
.lava
Veteran Member
your welcome
but you know, it is my bros who's helping me about this. they have better knowledge of Qur'an than me. i've just had further explanations from them about this verse. both in English and Turkish. here you go;Al Muzammil 8
Repeat the name of Allah and reach Him, dedicating yourself to Him utterly
Vezkurisme rabbike ve tebettel ileyhi tebtîlâ(tebtîlen).Ve Rabbinin İsmi'ni zikret ve herşeyden kesilerek O'na ulaş.
1. ve uzkur : ve zikret (Do dhikir / Repeat)
2. isme : isim (with name of)
3. rabbi-ke : Rabbinin (Your God. Creator)
4. ve tebettel : ve gönülden bağlan, ona yönel, ona ulaş
5. ileyhi : ona
6. tebtîlen : tam bir yönelişle, herşeyden kesilerek
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.lava
Veteran Member
i am just passing it:
Al Ankabut 45
My Beloved! Do read from thebook I have revealed to you, perform namaz (salaat) since namaz keeps a person away from their immorality and unlawful things. But, zikir to Allah is the greatest
Thus, zikir to Allah is a more important activity than namaz (salah) and reading the Kuran. When we look at this activity, we see why zikir has such importance. Zikir is the only continuous worship commanded by Allahu Teala. Allahu Teala has put no continuity on any other worship. Allah does not command an endless fasting and does not command an endless namaz. Namaz (salaat) is performed only five times, six times or seven times in a day. On the other hand, we fast only during the month of Ramadan and in addition to this, every Monday and Thursday. But, the command to fast every day is not given to any Prophet. The top level command which was commanded to the Prophet David about fasting was to fast every other day. This means one day fasting, one day not!
Arapcasi (sam verse in Arabic):
Utlu mâ ûhıye ileyke minel kitâbi ve ekımıs salât(salâte), innes salâte tenhâ anil fahşâi vel munker(munkeri), ve le zikrullâhi ekber(ekberu), vallâhu yalemu mâ tasneûn(tasneûne).
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][/FONT]
1. utlu : oku
2. mâ : şey
3. ûhıye : vahyedilen
4. ileyke : sana
5. min : dan
6. el kitâbi : kitap
7. ve ekımı : ve ikame et (kıl)
8. es salâte : namaz
9. inne : muhakkak
10. es salâte : namaz
11. tenhâ : nehyeder, yasaklar, mani olur
12. anil fahşâi (an el fahşâi) : fuhuştan, kötülükten
13. ve el munkeri : ve münker, nekir, kötülük
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]14. ve le : ve elbette, mutlaka (certainly / No doubt )
15. zikrullâhi (zikru allâhi) : Allah'ın zikri (Allah"s dhikir)
16. ekberu : en büyük ( Is the greatest)
17. vallâhu (ve allâhu) : ve Allah
18. ya'lemu : bilir
19. mâ : şey(ler), ne
20. tasneûne : yapıyorsunuz [/FONT]
.
Al Ankabut 45
My Beloved! Do read from thebook I have revealed to you, perform namaz (salaat) since namaz keeps a person away from their immorality and unlawful things. But, zikir to Allah is the greatest
Thus, zikir to Allah is a more important activity than namaz (salah) and reading the Kuran. When we look at this activity, we see why zikir has such importance. Zikir is the only continuous worship commanded by Allahu Teala. Allahu Teala has put no continuity on any other worship. Allah does not command an endless fasting and does not command an endless namaz. Namaz (salaat) is performed only five times, six times or seven times in a day. On the other hand, we fast only during the month of Ramadan and in addition to this, every Monday and Thursday. But, the command to fast every day is not given to any Prophet. The top level command which was commanded to the Prophet David about fasting was to fast every other day. This means one day fasting, one day not!
Arapcasi (sam verse in Arabic):
Utlu mâ ûhıye ileyke minel kitâbi ve ekımıs salât(salâte), innes salâte tenhâ anil fahşâi vel munker(munkeri), ve le zikrullâhi ekber(ekberu), vallâhu yalemu mâ tasneûn(tasneûne).
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][/FONT]
1. utlu : oku
2. mâ : şey
3. ûhıye : vahyedilen
4. ileyke : sana
5. min : dan
6. el kitâbi : kitap
7. ve ekımı : ve ikame et (kıl)
8. es salâte : namaz
9. inne : muhakkak
10. es salâte : namaz
11. tenhâ : nehyeder, yasaklar, mani olur
12. anil fahşâi (an el fahşâi) : fuhuştan, kötülükten
13. ve el munkeri : ve münker, nekir, kötülük
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]14. ve le : ve elbette, mutlaka (certainly / No doubt )
15. zikrullâhi (zikru allâhi) : Allah'ın zikri (Allah"s dhikir)
16. ekberu : en büyük ( Is the greatest)
17. vallâhu (ve allâhu) : ve Allah
18. ya'lemu : bilir
19. mâ : şey(ler), ne
20. tasneûne : yapıyorsunuz [/FONT]
.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by maro
That's deviation from " al Tawheed " to " the oness of existance dogma "....which renders some sufi sects entirely unislamic
also ,dancing and singing are " innovations "..and not true islamic rituals
Well said. I couldn't agree more.
............
The exoteric often denies the esoteric.... mainly out of fear and ignorance.
for example:
It all comes back, in a sense, to the term esoteric, which has been widely misrepresented and misunderstood. The concept is a keystone of Schuons thought (and appears in the title of one of his chief stud­ies, Esoterism as Principle and as Way)., Using the symbol of a circle and its center-a formulation that Schuon also employs in his writ­ings-another leading traditionalist author, Martin Lings, has described how esoterism is actually the link between world religions:
My intelligence had never been able to accept the exclu­sivist idea that there is only one valid religion. But now it had learned and most readily accepted the truth that the great religions of the world, all of them equally Heaven-sent in accordance with the various needs of different sectors of humanity, can be graphically represented by points on the circumference of a circle, each point being connected with the center, that is, with God, by a radius. The points stand for the outward aspects of the religions, whereas each radius is the esoteric path which the religion in question offers to those who seek a direct way to God in this life, and who are capable of compliance with the demands of that way of sanctification, demands far more rigorous and exacting than those of the exoteric way of salvation.
The secret (or inner) does not negate or deny the open (or outer), which can at times even be said to surround it, contain it, protect it, albeit perhaps unwittingly. In specifically Islamic terms, the tarigah (Arabic for path or Way) does not replace the shartah (the law, the highly developed code of rules and regulations that consti­tutes Islam); both start with the same foundational guidelines. But at the same time, since the esoteric path is one where movement takes place inside the circle, its progress may not always be dis­cernible to those on the circumference.
The secret is furthermore not clandestine out of paranoia or some perverse predilection for elitist exclusivism, but because exposure and publicity always crudely compromise the message being pre­served. As with the meaning of a fairy tale, any attempt to expose the esoteric to the light of rational analysis spoils it forever, robs it of all its magical meaning: truth vanishes in a puff of smoke under such circumstances. Ripping the veil off a hidden or sacred symbol reveals nothing of the inner clarity of the representation in ques­tion, but only the naked hollowness of the vision of the viewer.
The straight path-spoken of as al-Sirat al-Mustaqfm in the fati­hah, the all-embracing opening verses of the Quran-of true Sufism thus never really strays outside the circumference of the circle; nor does it meander in and out of it. It heads steadily (and usually with great difficulty) toward the center. As with a traditional craftsman, a painter, ,or a pianist, years of training in technique are required before the seeker is allowed the grace of improvisation-usually only when the center is within reach.
This demanding or rigorous path is never easy or comfortable, nor is it egalitarian or democratic, accessible to all. It is an initiatic way, the traditionalists insist, one of direct experience which cannot be spoken of to outsiders, not because the listener should not be told about it, but because they would and could not recognize the vocab­ulary, and the very attempt to verbalize it would do far more harm than good for the cause of understanding.
Merton and Sufism the Untold story Pgs. 198-200
Can one as a non muslim learn from Sufism?
Absolutely, I think it can be summed up easily, in many ways:
The Sufis say that human reality is the heart, and were walking around in it. When someone asked Bawa (Muhaiyaddeen) what reality was like, he said its like youre driving a car, and youre inside driving, but youre also the landscape youre going through.
Coleman Barks
.......
I became water
and saw myself
a mirage
became an ocean
saw myself a speck
of foam
gained Awareness
saw that all is but
forgetfulness
woke up
and found myself
asleep.
Binavi Badakhshani
Originally Posted by maro
That's deviation from " al Tawheed " to " the oness of existance dogma "....which renders some sufi sects entirely unislamic
also ,dancing and singing are " innovations "..and not true islamic rituals
Well said. I couldn't agree more.
............
The exoteric often denies the esoteric.... mainly out of fear and ignorance.
for example:
It all comes back, in a sense, to the term esoteric, which has been widely misrepresented and misunderstood. The concept is a keystone of Schuons thought (and appears in the title of one of his chief stud­ies, Esoterism as Principle and as Way)., Using the symbol of a circle and its center-a formulation that Schuon also employs in his writ­ings-another leading traditionalist author, Martin Lings, has described how esoterism is actually the link between world religions:
My intelligence had never been able to accept the exclu­sivist idea that there is only one valid religion. But now it had learned and most readily accepted the truth that the great religions of the world, all of them equally Heaven-sent in accordance with the various needs of different sectors of humanity, can be graphically represented by points on the circumference of a circle, each point being connected with the center, that is, with God, by a radius. The points stand for the outward aspects of the religions, whereas each radius is the esoteric path which the religion in question offers to those who seek a direct way to God in this life, and who are capable of compliance with the demands of that way of sanctification, demands far more rigorous and exacting than those of the exoteric way of salvation.
The secret (or inner) does not negate or deny the open (or outer), which can at times even be said to surround it, contain it, protect it, albeit perhaps unwittingly. In specifically Islamic terms, the tarigah (Arabic for path or Way) does not replace the shartah (the law, the highly developed code of rules and regulations that consti­tutes Islam); both start with the same foundational guidelines. But at the same time, since the esoteric path is one where movement takes place inside the circle, its progress may not always be dis­cernible to those on the circumference.
The secret is furthermore not clandestine out of paranoia or some perverse predilection for elitist exclusivism, but because exposure and publicity always crudely compromise the message being pre­served. As with the meaning of a fairy tale, any attempt to expose the esoteric to the light of rational analysis spoils it forever, robs it of all its magical meaning: truth vanishes in a puff of smoke under such circumstances. Ripping the veil off a hidden or sacred symbol reveals nothing of the inner clarity of the representation in ques­tion, but only the naked hollowness of the vision of the viewer.
The straight path-spoken of as al-Sirat al-Mustaqfm in the fati­hah, the all-embracing opening verses of the Quran-of true Sufism thus never really strays outside the circumference of the circle; nor does it meander in and out of it. It heads steadily (and usually with great difficulty) toward the center. As with a traditional craftsman, a painter, ,or a pianist, years of training in technique are required before the seeker is allowed the grace of improvisation-usually only when the center is within reach.
This demanding or rigorous path is never easy or comfortable, nor is it egalitarian or democratic, accessible to all. It is an initiatic way, the traditionalists insist, one of direct experience which cannot be spoken of to outsiders, not because the listener should not be told about it, but because they would and could not recognize the vocab­ulary, and the very attempt to verbalize it would do far more harm than good for the cause of understanding.
Merton and Sufism the Untold story Pgs. 198-200
Can one as a non muslim learn from Sufism?
Absolutely, I think it can be summed up easily, in many ways:
The Sufis say that human reality is the heart, and were walking around in it. When someone asked Bawa (Muhaiyaddeen) what reality was like, he said its like youre driving a car, and youre inside driving, but youre also the landscape youre going through.
Coleman Barks
.......
I became water
and saw myself
a mirage
became an ocean
saw myself a speck
of foam
gained Awareness
saw that all is but
forgetfulness
woke up
and found myself
asleep.
Binavi Badakhshani
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nameless
The Creator
Sufism is not part of islam, islam can be sometimes considered to be part of Sufism.
Sufism has different beliefs like mono-theism, monism and so on, but islam has only mono-theism. Sufis does many practices that normal muslims does not and also which are not prescribed in quran. Sufism is not islamic, outsides can surely practise sufism.
Sufism has different beliefs like mono-theism, monism and so on, but islam has only mono-theism. Sufis does many practices that normal muslims does not and also which are not prescribed in quran. Sufism is not islamic, outsides can surely practise sufism.
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.lava
Veteran Member
ahh please stop this non-sense arrogance and don't tell us what OUR path is. Sufis know Sufism because they are living it. though you might have an insight and an idea about it but you can not experience anything from 'outside'. this is truly disturbing. it is like someone else daring to tell me how i feel or what i think.
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nameless
The Creator
you still can be sufi because sufi's also accept monotheism as it is a path to monism. The problem is that you dont have enough knowledge regarding sufism, you should understand why sufis after understanding everything about islam got attracted to eastern practises like meditation, yoga etc. Has to say that sufis has something more than what quran has to say. Your understanding of sufism is just limited to quran, which is not.
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.lava
Veteran Member
what are you talking about? for centuries there've been dergahs in my nation and everyone who continued classes in dergahs are known as Sufis and dervishes. dergah of Rumi is one of them. it is just disrespectful to read some lines from Rumi and claim to understand what Sufism is. now you tell me that i do not know enough. perhabs true but not in the way you say it. you are disrespectful and i do not think i can be OK with it. you want to spread lies about our path, do it and you'd find me fighting against every false information you give.
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.lava
Veteran Member
for all those who wishes Sufism to be out of Islam;
any belief without mystism leads nowhere. mystism is the essence of every path. Sufism is not mystic Islam. Sufism is Islam itself. if some people skip the mystic part and give themselves to daily practice alone then they are using tools without any purpose and on the other hand if some have the wrong idea about mystism and add some extras into true religion they are just fooling themselves. noone can change religion of one and only creator.
this is not first or last time outside watchers come along and tell what our path is with a blinded arrogance. Sufism is Islam and it is definetely theist belief system that is not monism at all. read this verse of Qur'an;
8:17 You killed them not, but Allah killed them. And you (Muhammad SAW) threw not when you did throw but Allah threw...
people who have NO idea about what Islam is, submission is could interpret this verse as it is saying Muslims were God itself. if you insist ignoring the facts that's explained in Qur'an then it is your choice. we know that MOhammad (PBUH) is not God, no creature of God is God itself. some people may wish Sufism to be appear that way cos they can not stand Islam being mystic. they see beauty in Sufi poetry and mystic adventures so they insist saying Sufism is not Islam. Sufism is Islam. Sufism is submission so get over it. you can not steal OUR culture. you can not cover our path with your lies. that is unacceptable.
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any belief without mystism leads nowhere. mystism is the essence of every path. Sufism is not mystic Islam. Sufism is Islam itself. if some people skip the mystic part and give themselves to daily practice alone then they are using tools without any purpose and on the other hand if some have the wrong idea about mystism and add some extras into true religion they are just fooling themselves. noone can change religion of one and only creator.
this is not first or last time outside watchers come along and tell what our path is with a blinded arrogance. Sufism is Islam and it is definetely theist belief system that is not monism at all. read this verse of Qur'an;
8:17 You killed them not, but Allah killed them. And you (Muhammad SAW) threw not when you did throw but Allah threw...
people who have NO idea about what Islam is, submission is could interpret this verse as it is saying Muslims were God itself. if you insist ignoring the facts that's explained in Qur'an then it is your choice. we know that MOhammad (PBUH) is not God, no creature of God is God itself. some people may wish Sufism to be appear that way cos they can not stand Islam being mystic. they see beauty in Sufi poetry and mystic adventures so they insist saying Sufism is not Islam. Sufism is Islam. Sufism is submission so get over it. you can not steal OUR culture. you can not cover our path with your lies. that is unacceptable.
.
nameless
The Creator
hi lava,
the same i have to say for your post regarding meditation. You are an outsider to meditation, and you made just non-sense post regarding it.
please let me know on what understanding of meditation you made this post. BTW my post is not based upon insufficient ideas, i find monists among the sufis, but monism is unislamic.
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Metempsychosis
Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
Mysticism does not require religions,it is beyond religion or any other "holy' book ..Rather religions require them,in order to support itself .But then some religions require Satan too.
.Rather religions require them,in order to support itself .But then some religions require Satan too.
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.lava
Veteran Member
i meditated for years.
sometimes people confuse some practices we do with meditation. if you're not using any mantra, meditation is about breaking chain of thoughts and keeping mind still which anyone can do even while cooking or walking...etc. i do like stillness of mind. but using mantras is different from keeping mind still, free of thoughts. every mantra starts with Om which represents nothingness or emptiness. there is nothing in there but dark. darkness is where satan belongs.
yes, i am aware of that. specially in India many people who call them sufis are living a life different from Qur'an. their path is mixed with Hindu beliefs. yet Rumi was nothing like that. everything he used in his poetry represents something else which Western would not know. because they simply read poems. but they do not know culture. for example in or culture if one says "i drank wine of love" that does not mean alcohol. it simply means "i fell in love". i know it because i was born in this culture. even though i know simple stuff, i still should study in school to know Divan literature to understand poetry correctly. if you could see the problem here, many people who read Rumi, simply ignoring the culture itself which Rumi and many more saints was fed from and therefor used to write poetry or masnavis in their own time.
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.lava
Veteran Member
Mysticism does not require religions,it is beyond religion or any other "holy' book .
believing in God requires having faith in unseen. therefor mystism is a part of religion, it is Spirit of religion so to speak.
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Metempsychosis
Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
Religion is believing in God.Mysticism is experiencing god directly ,this may not even require belief.It does not require me to follow quran,or bible etc.It does not require sufism or any other sect either.Judaism has a similar sect which originate long before sufism (just for example).
I didnt deny this,this is wat religions require in justify their beliefs.
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Metempsychosis
Reincarnation of 'Anti-religion'
Meditation can take u lowest hell and also to the highest realization.Its just ur unsuccessful attempt,does mean the practice itself is wrong.OM has several meanings depending upon the type of person the speaker is.
Wat are u upto?Through out the thread,u have been mocking at Hinduism & Co by calling them satanic.Moreover ur knowledge of Eastern religions are very shallow.
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